I would love it if Katie Holmes did a tell all interview. I really want to hear about how she was able to get out. I remember reading somewhere that she was using burners like on the Wire to call her dad and also she talked to Nicole Kidman to basically find out every tactic that the "church" used to fuck her over.
I am also really interested in regular people who get lured in by Scientology. The celebrities make sense to me somewhat, anyone who actively pursues or finds fame probably has some narcissism and from everything I have seen and read the church just feeds that. However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
It's similar to the prosperity gospel stuff. Give your tithing -- get money/opportunities a-plenty. "This is already working for me -- they say if I give more I'll be able to xyz...sure!" Plus Scientology has that whole progressive tier thing going on so people WANT to rise in the "ranks."
I feel like a lot of religions do the money thing BUT not at all to the gigantic extent Scientology does. The buzzfeed article about the real estate freaked me the fuck out :-| (I don't have HBO or cable, which I'm bummed about, I want to see this documentary)
I think Katie's exit from that marriage was incredibly delicate and well-planned, and I don't think she has any plans to rile anyone up anytime soon.
I agree. I'm sure there was an agreement both ways - "You let me and my child leave peacefully, I won't divulge what I know about Tom and this cult". I'm sure she had SOMETHING that gave her some power in this.
I would love it if Katie Holmes did a tell all interview. I really want to hear about how she was able to get out. I remember reading somewhere that she was using burners like on the Wire to call her dad and also she talked to Nicole Kidman to basically find out every tactic that the "church" used to fuck her over.
I am also really interested in regular people who get lured in by Scientology. The celebrities make sense to me somewhat, anyone who actively pursues or finds fame probably has some narcissism and from everything I have seen and read the church just feeds that. However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
She never will. I wouldn't. She has a child with this man. For fuck's sake, LRH kidnapped his own kid and kept her in a cage. I think Katie's exit from that marriage was incredibly delicate and well-planned, and I don't think she has any plans to rile anyone up anytime soon.
I thought about this the whole time I watched, I can't imagine the planning that went into getting her out of there with her daughter.
I would love it if Katie Holmes did a tell all interview. I really want to hear about how she was able to get out. I remember reading somewhere that she was using burners like on the Wire to call her dad and also she talked to Nicole Kidman to basically find out every tactic that the "church" used to fuck her over.
I am also really interested in regular people who get lured in by Scientology. The celebrities make sense to me somewhat, anyone who actively pursues or finds fame probably has some narcissism and from everything I have seen and read the church just feeds that. However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
She never will. I wouldn't. She has a child with this man. For fuck's sake, LRH kidnapped his own kid and kept her in a cage. I think Katie's exit from that marriage was incredibly delicate and well-planned, and I don't think she has any plans to rile anyone up anytime soon.
I know she won't and I don't think she should because she has to protect her daughter. I just am insanely curious about how she managed to pull it off. She kind of was the start of the unravel I think for the public to start to realize how nuts the church actually is. They will never release their membership numbers but I seriously doubt they are getting a ton of new followers. Eventually the money will run out as well.
They will never release their membership numbers but I seriously doubt they are getting a ton of new followers. Eventually the money will run out as well.
I think their membership will dry up WELL before the money will. They have a shit load of tax free money and it sounds like they are smart with it.
I would love it if Katie Holmes did a tell all interview. I really want to hear about how she was able to get out. I remember reading somewhere that she was using burners like on the Wire to call her dad and also she talked to Nicole Kidman to basically find out every tactic that the "church" used to fuck her over.
I have a feeling she signed an NDA up-front just like Nazanin Boniadi did. I'm sure the church has threatened to destroy her if she ever breathes a word.
Post by ninjabridemom on Mar 31, 2015 9:40:56 GMT -5
Did I tell you guys Jake did the initial "draw you in" thing? He was in college and was approached by Scientologists and was bored (!!) and curious so he went with them to their auditing or whatever.
He said it was weird but informative in terms of how they worked. He said he could understand why others, after that meeting, followed up. But he put a fake name and at the end was like, Thanks but nope, and left.
I don't remember other details about it but he was so nonchalant even in the telling of this story lol.
However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
It's similar to the prosperity gospel stuff. Give your tithing -- get money/opportunities a-plenty. "This is already working for me -- they say if I give more I'll be able to xyz...sure!" Plus Scientology has that whole progressive tier thing going on so people WANT to rise in the "ranks."
I feel like a lot of religions do the money thing BUT not at all to the gigantic extent Scientology does. The buzzfeed article about the real estate freaked me the fuck out (I don't have HBO or cable, which I'm bummed about, I want to see this documentary)
However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
I think it's incredibly seductive. Here's a way for you to shake insecurities and feel good about yourself. Here's a way to let go of past trauma and rise above it. And they're very right about the euphoria associated with auditing. Confessing lightens your load considerably, and probably feels much like a high. The fact that they keep notes and recordings means it's not just about your well-being, but unless you're aware of that going in, I think the process can be really tempting for a lot of people. Leaving aside the batpancake-crazy Thetan theory, it's essentially Freudian therapy.
This makes sense. I know it is easy to look in from the outside and think "WTF are people thinking". However, when you are looking for "something" anything can seem seductive if it is packaged correctly. Pre-internet the shit with the thetans wasn't something they told you up front (they still don't but most people have google and if you aren't a scientologist you can use it). In fact very few people got to the level where they learned about it. The book I read by Miscaviage's niece stated that she didn't learn about the thetans until after she left scientology and she was raised in the sea org. I am sure it helps that the "weirder" stuff isn't laid out before you buy into it.
I also agree that the membership will run out before the money does. I also wouldn't be surprised if Miscaviage just runs off to somewhere with as much of the money as he can.
The only thing I have an issue with is the bolded. I was raised with way too much catholic guilt and confession just gives me panic attacks. There aren't enough hail marys in the world for me to feel better about disobeying my parents apparently. LOL
I think people join a lot things out of insecurity and make behavioral changes because of membership. Scientology, however, is filled with abuse.
I think joining something means you're trying to fill a void and therefore makes you vulnerable and suggestible.
Poeple can be easily manipulated.
Also, with any investment, the more a person is invested the more they feel they will lose if they walk away. People have a hard time walking away from shitty things that they have put a lot of time and money into. I didn't articulate that well, but you get the idea.
And as time goes on the more you identify yourself with whatever it is that you have invested in. The more you say, 'I am that thing that I have put so much time and energy into and who will I be if I walk away?'
So many of these higher ups who left still identify with the church in that they spent time invested against the church. They just went from pro to con. They did not adopt a new identity free from association with the church, which I am not being critical of, but there's still that investment in the topic for them.
eta: The more a person invests, the more they are willing to continue to invest.
eta2: Also, if you tell people something will change their lives, this hooks people in. People want some entity outside of themselves to soothe them and all the answers. Life is hard, yo. And anything you can do to promise other people that your religion, product, stock, etc. will make it easier/better gets people to pay attention.
Considering the tactics of the church used to intimidate and harass, my best guess is that former members don't want anything to do with the church at this point, let alone to file a lawsuit or press criminal charges.
I was admittedly VERY tired when I watched this, but I thought they said something about it being a 1st Amendment issue? And they'd have to go through the arbitration procedures that Scientology uses?
Yes, there have been some suits against the church from former members and the film did say that courts have ruled that a lot of the Scientologist practices (such as abuse and underpayment of Sea Org members) are protected by the 1st Amendment. The film said that the FBI had been investigating Scientology but dropped its investigation after the church won another First Amendment victory.
Is there anyway to watch this online? I don't have HBO. I've always been so fascinated with the "religion". In my career thus far, I've taken care of 1 person who was a scientologist. The person had a parkinsons like disease, but refused any medication that could have kept him living at home due to the religion's views on medication. I always felt bad, since he could have lived many years with minimal impact from the disease. Instead he's spent at least 15 years in a nursing home. I've seen one of their churches in the area and always wonder what it would be like to attend.
Have any of you read the book Going Clear? I would like to pick it up when I go to the city this week. Lucy Honeychurch sounds like it may be something you would find interesting.
However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
I think it's incredibly seductive. Here's a way for you to shake insecurities and feel good about yourself. Here's a way to let go of past trauma and rise above it. And they're very right about the euphoria associated with auditing. Confessing lightens your load considerably, and probably feels much like a high. The fact that they keep notes and recordings means it's not just about your well-being, but unless you're aware of that going in, I think the process can be really tempting for a lot of people. Leaving aside the batpancake-crazy Thetan theory, it's essentially Freudian therapy.
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
However, I don't really get what lures in regular people to spend all that money.
I think it's incredibly seductive. Here's a way for you to shake insecurities and feel good about yourself. Here's a way to let go of past trauma and rise above it. And they're very right about the euphoria associated with auditing. Confessing lightens your load considerably, and probably feels much like a high. The fact that they keep notes and recordings means it's not just about your well-being, but unless you're aware of that going in, I think the process can be really tempting for a lot of people. Leaving aside the batpancake-crazy Thetan theory, it's essentially Freudian therapy.
I can totally see how appealing it can be. As someone that has had past trauma, hearing of a "religion" that could help me get past PTSD could sound incredibly appealing. When you are desperate to get past the trauma, and all the emotions that accompany it, it's easy to see why people would flock to it. I'm sure for those that don't like taking medication to get past a psych difficulty, hearing the churches stance on it, as well as their promises of erasing trauma, the religion sounds like a miracle cure.
I can totally see how appealing it can be. As someone that has had past trauma, hearing of a "religion" that could help me get past PTSD could sound incredibly appealing. When you are desperate to get past the trauma, and all the emotions that accompany it, it's easy to see why people would flock to it. I'm sure for those that don't like taking medication to get past a psych difficulty, hearing the churches stance on it, as well as their promises of erasing trauma, the religion sounds like a miracle cure.
And the thing is, I bet it works. I mean, it's essentially therapy. So in that regard Hubbard wasn't too far off. The notion of verbally recounting a traumatic event over and over does, most likely, neuter its influence, at least to an extent. If they stopped there, it might be a very effective therapeutic tool for things like PTSD. I laughed out loud when Paul Haggis was talking about how he reached OT3 and was given the secret materials and went, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
Me, too. Especially his initial thoughts of "This must be a test." You go through all of this therapy, and then they give you this Xenu shit. If you say you believe it, they know that the therapy didn't work - you must be insane. To pass what is clearly this insanity test, you must question the shit they give you. RIGHT?
I think people join a lot things out of insecurity and make behavioral changes because of membership. Scientology, however, is filled with abuse.
I think joining something means you're trying to fill a void and therefore makes you vulnerable and suggestible.
Poeple can be easily manipulated.
Also, with any investment, the more a person is invested the more they feel they will lose if they walk away. People have a hard time walking away from shitty things that they have put a lot of time and money into. I didn't articulate that well, but you get the idea.
And as time goes on the more you identify yourself with whatever it is that you have invested in. The more you say, 'I am that thing that I have put so much time and energy into and who will I be if I walk away?'
So many of these higher ups who left still identify with the church in that they spent time invested against the church. They just went from pro to con. They did not adopt a new identity free from association with the church, which I am not being critical of, but there's still that investment in the topic for them.
eta: The more a person invests, the more they are willing to continue to invest.
eta2: Also, if you tell people something will change their lives, this hooks people in. People want some entity outside of themselves to soothe them and all the answers. Life is hard, yo. And anything you can do to promise other people that your religion, product, stock, etc. will make it easier/better gets people to pay attention.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Belief systems like this often prey on people who have insecurities and are looking for something to "fix" whatever it is that's going on. And for many it does fill a void. A lot of the behaviors and customs of Scientology remind me of other cultic behaviors in other belief systems. My father got sucked into a cult when I was young, and both he and my stepmom are very active within this movement. I used to be.
During my dad's "backslidden" days he used to say things about being so invested in the church, monetarily, and his position, that he couldn't leave. Yeah, when there is a doctrine that states you *must* tithe 10% of your monhtly income, and you've been doing this for the better part of two decades, it would seem like a waste to walk away from it all. He still ended up getting sucked back in. It's familiar to him, and what he knows. His identity is wrapped up in their church and everything it espouses.
The underlined is definitely true for many that deconvert from the religion of their upbringing. It definitely applies to me.
I can totally see how appealing it can be. As someone that has had past trauma, hearing of a "religion" that could help me get past PTSD could sound incredibly appealing. When you are desperate to get past the trauma, and all the emotions that accompany it, it's easy to see why people would flock to it. I'm sure for those that don't like taking medication to get past a psych difficulty, hearing the churches stance on it, as well as their promises of erasing trauma, the religion sounds like a miracle cure.
And the thing is, I bet it works. I mean, it's essentially therapy. So in that regard Hubbard wasn't too far off. The notion of verbally recounting a traumatic event over and over does, most likely, neuter its influence, at least to an extent. If they stopped there, it might be a very effective therapeutic tool for things like PTSD. I laughed out loud when Paul Haggis was talking about how he reached OT3 and was given the secret materials and went, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
My therapy session for PTSD are basically like this. It's a lot of reiterating the same trauma over and over, till anxiety and fear stop being an immediate reaction. When I did EMDR therapy, it was basically this, with a few different techniques. It was like searching the soul for every bit of past trauma. I can completely see how attractive this would be for those wanting that kind of psychological healing in a 'religious' setting.
What was the secret material that he was given access too? I want to watch the documentary so badly now!!
I would love to read and learn more about the Sea Org part of it all. I don't understand how they can get away with the abuse they inflict on their followers.
I think it's incredibly seductive. Here's a way for you to shake insecurities and feel good about yourself. Here's a way to let go of past trauma and rise above it. And they're very right about the euphoria associated with auditing. Confessing lightens your load considerably, and probably feels much like a high. The fact that they keep notes and recordings means it's not just about your well-being, but unless you're aware of that going in, I think the process can be really tempting for a lot of people. Leaving aside the batpancake-crazy Thetan theory, it's essentially Freudian therapy.
I can totally see how appealing it can be. As someone that has had past trauma, hearing of a "religion" that could help me get past PTSD could sound incredibly appealing. When you are desperate to get past the trauma, and all the emotions that accompany it, it's easy to see why people would flock to it. I'm sure for those that don't like taking medication to get past a psych difficulty, hearing the churches stance on it, as well as their promises of erasing trauma, the religion sounds like a miracle cure.
you've articulated exactly what was floating around inside my head.
Fascinating documentary, I got down a wormhole reading about the Little family and a few others after watching the doc yesterday. LRH was crazycakes, man.
@kizmet I think the couldn't talk much about Shelly Miscavage or Katie Holmes for fear of lawsuit(s) but I'd looooove a followup with info on them, and a sit-down with Leah Remini, too, if we're dreaming up guests. The NDAs people sign who do get out quietly must be iron-clad.
Have any of you read the book Going Clear? I would like to pick it up when I go to the city this week. Lucy Honeychurch sounds like it may be something you would find interesting.
I read it. If you want to know about Scientology, this is the book read. It's the perfect mix of a cult religion and celebrity gossip.
Now that I know about the celebrity gossip aspect, I want to read it NOW!
I can totally see how appealing it can be. As someone that has had past trauma, hearing of a "religion" that could help me get past PTSD could sound incredibly appealing. When you are desperate to get past the trauma, and all the emotions that accompany it, it's easy to see why people would flock to it. I'm sure for those that don't like taking medication to get past a psych difficulty, hearing the churches stance on it, as well as their promises of erasing trauma, the religion sounds like a miracle cure.
And the thing is, I bet it works. I mean, it's essentially therapy. So in that regard Hubbard wasn't too far off. The notion of verbally recounting a traumatic event over and over does, most likely, neuter its influence, at least to an extent. If they stopped there, it might be a very effective therapeutic tool for things like PTSD. I laughed out loud when Paul Haggis was talking about how he reached OT3 and was given the secret materials and went, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
That's exactly what it is, they make you relive traumatic things in your life until they don't bother you anymore.
I have not seen the movie, so I'm not sure if this is discssed in it, but they also do this treatment where you take a lot of vitamins and then run on a treadmill in a sauna (I'm unsure of all the details) and then every drug that you have ever taken in your entire life will come out through your system. They claim that if you've ever done say acid before you will feel the effects of it again and that will help purify you.
And along the lines of how they get people in, they make you think they have this magical cure all. But they won't share it with you until you take a trip down to the org to talk to someone.
My therapy session for PTSD are basically like this. It's a lot of reiterating the same trauma over and over, till anxiety and fear stop being an immediate reaction. When I did EMDR therapy, it was basically this, with a few different techniques. It was like searching the soul for every bit of past trauma. I can completely see how attractive this would be for those wanting that kind of psychological healing in a 'religious' setting.
What was the secret material that he was given access too? I want to watch the documentary so badly now!!
Here's the secret material.http://jeta.home.xs4all.nl/scn/ot3/ot3.html
^o) I'm giving scientology even more side eye now.
I asked my mom about getting info from the seminary library. She said they learned absolutely nothing about scientology due to the cult aspect of it all. I find that kind of interesting as all sorts of religions are taught about in the masters of divinity she was in.
And the thing is, I bet it works. I mean, it's essentially therapy. So in that regard Hubbard wasn't too far off. The notion of verbally recounting a traumatic event over and over does, most likely, neuter its influence, at least to an extent. If they stopped there, it might be a very effective therapeutic tool for things like PTSD. I laughed out loud when Paul Haggis was talking about how he reached OT3 and was given the secret materials and went, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
That's exactly what it is, they make you relive traumatic things in your life until they don't bother you anymore.
I have not seen the movie, so I'm not sure if this is discssed in it, but they also do this treatment where you take a lot of vitamins and then run on a treadmill in a sauna (I'm unsure of all the details) and then every drug that you have ever taken in your entire life will come out through your system. They claim that if you've ever done say acid before you will feel the effects of it again and that will help purify you.
And along the lines of how they get people in, they make you think they have this magical cure all. But they won't share it with you until you take a trip down to the org to talk to someone.
Well, in their defence, feeling stoned in a nice hot sauna does sound kind of appealing.
Yeah, I think JT ad TC have too much to lose to break away.
Also, the woman who became pregnant while being reformed or whatever. I got a strange feeling about that, I mean was it something consensual? The way she said it just seemed strange.
it struck me as extremely odd, too. She said they were always awake and working for ~30 hours, then got about 3 hours to sleep. But that she got pregnant in there.
it struck me as extremely odd, too. She said they were always awake and working for ~30 hours, then got about 3 hours to sleep. But that she got pregnant in there.
It was consensual. She was married and could have short visits with her husband at the center.