Ryan on Abortion in his own words

[ttt]

Aug 12, 2012 13:27:48 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I think a person who can view themselves in another position can have a legit opinion. I probably won't have children, but I can imagine how physically burdensome it would be. I think my husband can do the same.

What bothers me about Ryan and other anti-choice males is the way they speak about it. They don't acknowledge the issue of bodily autonomy. Of carrying a parasite for 40 weeks. They'll talk about medical risks of abortion and ignore the far greater risks of pregnancy. They'll throw out adoption as though it's an easy choice which completely disregards women's personal accounts.

And then Ryan goes and phrases it in terms of fucking freedom.

Yeah, men can have an opinion, but I'll disregard any opinion that shows an apparent lack of understanding of pregnancy and the burden it is, even when wanted.

Thank you - this is what I was trying to say, but you said it much better.

[copzgirl1171]

Their job as a politician is to secure my rights and afford me the ability to access those rights. Not cock block me because it doesn't fit their personal moral definition of what THEY believe b

[emmybean]

Aug 12, 2012 13:27:48 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I think a person who can view themselves in another position can have a legit opinion. I probably won't have children, but I can imagine how physically burdensome it would be. I think my husband can do the same.

What bothers me about Ryan and other anti-choice males is the way they speak about it. They don't acknowledge the issue of bodily autonomy. Of carrying a parasite for 40 weeks. They'll talk about medical risks of abortion and ignore the far greater risks of pregnancy. They'll throw out adoption as though it's an easy choice which completely disregards women's personal accounts.

And then Ryan goes and phrases it in terms of fucking freedom.

Yeah, men can have an opinion, but I'll disregard any opinion that shows an apparent lack of understanding of pregnancy and the burden it is, even when wanted.

So, what is your feeling about women who have gone through pregnancy and are pro-life? There are many women who speak of pregnancy the same way (some) pro-life men do. So why is it ok to write of men and not women? And only if they don't agree with you?

[teflep]

Aug 12, 2012 12:05:58 GMT -5 druidp said:

1. I'm agreeing with Emmybean in this thread, which is slightly freaking me out.

2. I definitely initially got excited about the Ryan pick with regards to the economy. And I still think it'll add a bit more fire to the lead-up to November. But I do have hang-ups about his social stances, since he doesn't represent me in that regard. Thus my quandary continues, and the shit is still real for me... I have some meditating to do.

3. My pedicure on Friday was heavenly, so there's that.

I am with you, though I think Emmy speaks truth when it comes to matter of fact bs.

I also stated his social stances concern me. Fiscal issues do as well and the "I'm owed this" mentality in this country could very well break us. My theory today is he was chosen to show how different the young vs old mentality is in this country (5the states chuck Todd mentioned today about states that may fall easily for Obama really are showing this to me (Iowa...Medicare and Florida...old people & Medicare) as well as energize the base for a possible shift in congress. Not positive, but that would set up 2016. I had little hope of romney winning and still plan to go third party solely on the economy and education (both of which Obama is weak to scares me in terms of yet ANOTHER generation being screwed with ESEA not likely to be renewed on time and these bs waivers putting a bandaid on, much like these CR are for budgets.

[aw]

Aug 12, 2012 13:21:39 GMT -5 ttt said:

Aug 12, 2012 12:56:53 GMT -5 aw said:

I guess I don't see how everyone can be all "it should be fair and equal between the sexes" and then decide that on this issue it shouldn't be fair and equal. Sure, the woman is the one that has to carry the child, but the child doesn't 100% belong to them.

No, their child doesn't 100% belong to her, but her body belongs 100% to her. That's what this is all about.

But can you see the frustration on the part of certain men? Something that does "belong" to them is inside of that body. And some men might argue that because of that, that part of her body doesn't completely belong to her at the moment.

Like emmybean said, it's a philosophical difference. It is understandable that both men and women would be passionate about this issue on both sides.

I guess we should start "slut-shaming" the men too and tell them they shouldn't be knocking up women that are willing to kill their children and then we won't have to listen to their opinion on the issue, right?

[marie427]

No surprise that I find Ryan's views to be very, very different from my own re: abortion. I'm just catching up with the major weekend news after just coming home from a family wedding, so this has probably been said before, but the Ryan pick to me is an obvious kowtow to social conservatives since Romney isn't one (no matter how hard he may try to pretend that he is). Nothing riles up the social conservative base like abortion does.

Someday I hope social conservatives stop holding so much clout in this country. Someday. They don't win everything but the pandering is obnoxious.

[copzgirl1171]

Left sharp turn.

[teflep]

Aug 12, 2012 13:29:09 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:25:21 GMT -5 ttt said:

My point is that it's a lot easier to have that philosophical opinion if you're not the one who faces the possibility of death or permanent physical damage as a result.

So?

Are you suggesting that's why it's ok to write off men's opinions based only on their penile status? Because its easy?

I also have never birthed a child, though I have one...where does my opinion stand?

[teflep]

Aug 12, 2012 13:36:20 GMT -5 @copzgirl1171 said:

Left sharp turn.

?

[basilosaurus]

Aug 12, 2012 13:31:47 GMT -5 emmybean said:

So, what is your feeling about women who have gone through pregnancy and are pro-life? There are many women who speak of pregnancy the same way (some) pro-life men do. So why is it ok to write of men and not women? And only if they don't agree with you?

Did I say I write off men and not women? Did I say I only respect those who agree?

Not in the least. I have pro-life male and female friends, and while I vehemently disagree, I respect the way they discuss the issue. They acknowledge the woman's role in, you know, being pregnant, and how shitty the situation is, but that they can't condone killing.

Did Ryan's rant even mention the woman? Or is she merely an incubator, not even worth discussing? That's the rhetoric I object to.

[copzgirl1171]

Aug 12, 2012 13:37:44 GMT -5 teflep said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:36:20 GMT -5 @copzgirl1171 said:

Left sharp turn.

?

Sorry aw's last post about women willing to kill their children is gonna take this thread off course.

[stephiehun]

Aug 12, 2012 13:34:37 GMT -5 aw said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:21:39 GMT -5 ttt said:

No, their child doesn't 100% belong to her, but her body belongs 100% to her. That's what this is all about.

But can you see the frustration on the part of certain men? Something that does "belong" to them is inside of that body. And some men might argue that because of that, that part of her body doesn't completely belong to her at the moment.

Like emmybean said, it's a philosophical difference. It is understandable that both men and women would be passionate about this issue on both sides.

I guess we should start "slut-shaming" the men too and tell them they shouldn't be knocking up women that are willing to kill their children and then we won't have to listen to their opinion on the issue, right?

sperm cell =/= uterus

[emmybean]

Aug 12, 2012 13:37:03 GMT -5 teflep said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:29:09 GMT -5 emmybean said:

So?

Are you suggesting that's why it's ok to write off men's opinions based only on their penile status? Because its easy?

I also have never birthed a child, though I have one...where does my opinion stand?

From what I understand, your opinion is only worth consideration of you have the correct viewpoint of pregnancy and where human life begins. If not, then there is just no way you can understand.

HTH.

[stephiehun]

Aug 12, 2012 13:40:09 GMT -5 @copzgirl1171 said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:37:44 GMT -5 teflep said:

?

Sorry aw's last post about women willing to kill their children is gonna take this thread off course.

Don't worry. Now that you've called her on it, she'll probably deactivate again.

[aw]

Aug 12, 2012 13:27:46 GMT -5 @copzgirl1171 said:

The hell their job as a politician is to make decisions about MY body. The hell it is.

But they do it all the time. It's just that when your uterus is involved you get up in arms about it.

Where's the outrage over the politicians who have an opinion about mandatory vaccination? They are trying to make a decision about what I have to do with my body or the body of my children.

What about the politicians that have an opinion about what you should be allowed to put into your body?

How about the ones pushing to make homebirth illegal in certain areas of the country? That's my body I'm giving birth with.

To pretend that politicians don't already have this "right" (whether or not they should) is crazy. People just seem to only care about it when their ability to have sex without consequences is in jeopardy. The government shouldn't have the authority to do any of this, but as it stands, it does.

[ttt]

Aug 12, 2012 13:34:37 GMT -5 aw said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:21:39 GMT -5 ttt said:

No, their child doesn't 100% belong to her, but her body belongs 100% to her. That's what this is all about.

But can you see the frustration on the part of certain men? Something that does "belong" to them is inside of that body. And some men might argue that because of that, that part of her body doesn't completely belong to her at the moment.

Like emmybean said, it's a philosophical difference. It is understandable that both men and women would be passionate about this issue on both sides.

I guess we should start "slut-shaming" the men too and tell them they shouldn't be knocking up women that are willing to kill their children and then we won't have to listen to their opinion on the issue, right?

I can see how they would be frustrated, but if it comes down to it, I'm sorry, my feelings and opinions about my body are more important than his feelings and opinions about my body.

Again, I'm not saying men don't get to have an opinion. Everyone gets to have an opinion. But I am can't take the opinion of *anyone* seriously who dismisses pregnancy as a mere "inconvenience" as men like Ryan seem apt to do.

[earlgreyhot]

Basically the right wants to make sexual intercourse some de facto contract that nulls a woman's right to her body.

[doctordonna]

lol @ vaccination being compared to abortion.

[aw]

Well I've given birth three times and am currently pregnant with my fourth, so my opinion must REALLY matter. lol

[basilosaurus]

Aug 12, 2012 13:42:23 GMT -5 aw said:

What about the politicians that have an opinion about what you should be allowed to put into your body?

You're right. I don't think that politicians shouldn't be making laws that prevent men from having dicks in their assholes, either.

[emmybean]

Aug 12, 2012 13:40:09 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:31:47 GMT -5 emmybean said:

So, what is your feeling about women who have gone through pregnancy and are pro-life? There are many women who speak of pregnancy the same way (some) pro-life men do. So why is it ok to write of men and not women? And only if they don't agree with you?

Did I say I write off men and not women? Did I say I only respect those who agree?

Not in the least. I have pro-life male and female friends, and while I vehemently disagree, I respect the way they discuss the issue. They acknowledge the woman's role in, you know, being pregnant, and how shitty the situation is, but that they can't condone killing.

Did Ryan's rant even mention the woman? Or is she merely an incubator, not even worth discussing? That's the rhetoric I object to.

You said you disregard opinions that have an "apparent lack of understanding of pregnancy and what a burden it is" I'm asking how you feel about women who have been pregnant and who speak about abortion the way some men do. You see the rhetoric one way, and they see it another. By being unable to see their POV (even if you disagree with it) enough to regard it at all makes you no better then them---lazy.

[copzgirl1171]

aw you gave birth at home didn't you? Imagine that right was taken away from you because Billy Congressman decided it was best for you to give birth in a hospital hooked to monitors and iv's and flat on your back.

You would just ditch your belief system and default to Billy, since it's his job to decide these things for you?

[aw]

Aug 12, 2012 13:47:44 GMT -5 doctordonna said:

lol @ vaccination being compared to abortion.

Eh. The point is that the government IS currently able to make decisions about our bodies, whether it has to do with the type of food we eat, the drugs we can take, or the way we have to drive in our car.

Perhaps homebirth is a better comparison. Or circumcision. These are medical issues that the government tries to involve themselves in.

[aw]

Aug 12, 2012 13:49:58 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Aug 12, 2012 13:42:23 GMT -5 aw said:

What about the politicians that have an opinion about what you should be allowed to put into your body?

You're right. I don't think that politicians shouldn't be making laws that prevent men from having dicks in their assholes, either.

I didn't realize there was a push to make sodomy illegal. I don't support that either.

[copzgirl1171]

There are one million loopholes and ways around vaccinations, drugs, and various other things you mentioned. There is only one way to taking away my right to choose and it goes directly through my uterus.

[aw]

Aug 12, 2012 13:50:47 GMT -5 @copzgirl1171 said:

aw you gave birth at home didn't you? Imagine that right was taken away from you because Billy Congressman decided it was best for you to give birth in a hospital hooked to monitors and iv's and flat on your back.

You would just ditch your belief system and default to Billy, since it's his job to decide these things for you?

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my previous post. I want the government out of my medical decisions completely. I'm pro-choice politically, because I don't think it's the government's business at all.

But I feel like I'm consistent about this.

As far as homebirth, yes I had one. I am lucky that everything turned out fine and I didn't need to be transferred to a hospital for any reason, because there ARE cases in Ohio where women have had their babies taken from them because of their decision to have a homebirth. And there are states in this country in which it is completely illegal to have one.

My point was that the government is already making decisions for us about our bodies. You said that isn't the job of a politician, but unfortunately we allow them to do this is so many other areas that I guess I understand why they think they should be allowed to do it in this area too.

[heyjude]

Aug 12, 2012 8:00:07 GMT -5 teflep said:

So, do the libs on this board think the vp matters or not? Yesterday, it was meaningless and now, not. I just need a scorecard for it,

Where are you getting this? Certainly not from the conversation you and I were having yesterday regarding the dichotomy between the Prez and VP because that would be an utter misreading of my theory on your part.

[doctordonna]

In terms of food taxes and whatnot, the government seems to be trying to do what's good for the whole of the population. I don't necessarily agree with the method, but I can see the benefits of those taxes. The abortion debate focuses on one portion of the populus and is almost entirely based in religion and morality. I saw a bumpersticker the other day that said "Keep your theology out of my biology." I agree with that. No politician, male or female, has the right to take away my right to choose because of the politician's religious beliefs.

ETA - I meant to quote aw. Duh.

[aw]

Aug 12, 2012 13:54:20 GMT -5 @copzgirl1171 said:

There are one million loopholes and ways around vaccinations, drugs, and various other things you mentioned. There is only one way to taking away my right to choose and it goes directly through my uterus.

But there is a push to take those loopholes away for parents when it comes to vaccination. I see women on here advocating for mandatory vaccination. I guess these women think that in this case, the government has the right to tell us what we have to do with our bodies, because it is for the good of other people. Perhaps the politicians that are pushing to repeal Roe v. Wade are thinking the same thing. They view their pro-life agenda as for the good of other people (the baby that they view as having just as many rights as the mother).

FTR, I'm not pushing to repeal Roe v. Wade. I also don't think anyone should be forced to get vaccinated. "My body, my choice" doesn't just have to do with my uterus and sex-life.

[teflep]

Aug 12, 2012 13:59:50 GMT -5 aw said:

[ I also don't think anyone should be forced to get vaccinated. "My body, my choice" doesn't just have to do with my uterus and sex-life.

Except that abortion doesn't affect others. Those that don't vaccinate ABSOLUTELY affect others. Me and mine, specifically, though I worry about all people...my son is my top priority. So, get vaccinated.