Post by longtimenopost on Apr 26, 2015 19:27:17 GMT -5
I'll admit that if it weren't for this board (and CEP) I'd know little about what is going on. I work full time, have a child with special needs, am in a high risk pregnancy, am buying a house, etc. etc. etc. I don't watch the news or read the papers. If this happened in my town, my first reaction would probably be fear for my own family. It's unfortunate and I hate what's going on but other than educate myself and know my privilege I don't know what to do about it.
Post by Teachermama on Apr 26, 2015 19:41:50 GMT -5
Its actually not the way I think. It was a shot gun fear before figuring out what happened. You can continue to call me ignorant if it makes you feel better but this whole situation is sad and scary.
Its actually not the way I think. It was a shot gun fear before figuring out what happened. You can continue to call me ignorant if it makes you feel better but this whole situation is sad and scary.
Okay, but why share something if it's not your opinion? People post all kinds of bigoted and ignorant shit on FB. As an adult and a teacher you should exercise critical thinking skills before sharing something like this.
These cops were wrong yes. But a few bad apples should not ruin the whole batch. Its not fair to attack all police for things others did. There are black men killing police officers but there are no protests against that. I am not trying to start a debate.
My cousin is a state trooper in a small town in TX and he is opposed to the actions these cops have done. If I were a cop I would want these assholes outed and held accountable as not to ruin the whole bunch. These bad cops are what's ruining the perception of police not the protestors.
I mean it's like kicking a dog over and over and over and then being shocked when it bites you.
Wait a second you don't think I am OKAY with the asswipes who call themselves police officers do you?
Ok I don't think anything I have posted as been taken the way i have meant it.
No.
You posted something inaccurate, and ignorant, and based purely on something you apparently saw on FB. Everybody then pointed out how wrong and ignorant you are.
The problem here is not how what you're saying is being interpreted.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Post by underwaterrhymes on Apr 26, 2015 20:32:54 GMT -5
Can I ask you a question?
Do you understand that this is not an aberration? This happens all the time. This does not mean all cops are this way, but enough are that it is an epidemic.
Do you know what mothers of black boys go through in this country as their sons move from cute little babies past toddlerhood and into teenagers and men that people fear for no reason other than the color of their skin? Do you know how they teach them to not make eye contact and to avoid putting their hands in their pockets? Do you understand that black men are incarcerated at much higher rates than white men and not because they are committing more crimes, but because they are prosecuted with stronger sentences and often in communities with juror bias? Did you read the link I posted and see just how many young unarmed black men are being killed?
If these were young white men, we would not be having this conversation because those cops would have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
This is a huge problem that doesn't begin and end with Freddie Gray.
Teachermama, whether or not you meant the things the way they were taken is kind of a non-issue at this point. We are all ignorant about things at some point. The only way to get past that is to read, discuss, and learn. The pile-ons don't help here.
I admit I was VERY ignorant before the Ferguson riots. I grew up in a small town with virtually no diversity of any kind (race, socioeconomic, or religion), and had absolutely no idea how deep some of the feelings go. In my mind, I think I thought the riots were unjustified because it wasn't something that DIRECTLY affected those individuals. (Note: I am now embarrassed by my true ignorance at that time.) I had read the history stuff (though, admittedly, it was my worst/least favorite subject), but it never really sunk in. I knew the facts. I was missing the true meaning and cultural impact. (Kind of like when you see a picture of something really beautiful, like the Grand Canyon. You can see and know that it's beautiful, but the picture doesn't even begin to touch the true beauty and magnificence that you experience when you're there. Maybe? I don't know.)
Anyway, the discussions on here around that time and all of the articles I read helped me realize where I was so wrong in my thinking. Of course I don't know what you think...but to those who are upset, keep in mind that just because someone thought something once, it doesn't mean they'll think that way forever.
That's probably clear as mud. Sorry. Basically, you've acknowledged your ignorance, and you're reading and continuing this discussion right now to change it.
Post by chickens987 on Apr 26, 2015 20:36:28 GMT -5
Whatever your intention behind your posting, I am appalled that you live in Baltimore, know there are protests going on, and had zero desire to educate yourself as to WHY they were happening until people here posted links.
I was 9 when there were serious riots on my front steps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Washington,_D.C._riot), and even as a 9 year old, I knew what sparked them. Because my parents, rather than shielding us, made sure we were informed citizens.
Do you understand that this is not an aberration? This happens all the time. This does not mean all cops are this way, but enough are that it is an epidemic.
Do you know what mothers of black boys go through in this country as their sons move from cute little babies past toddlerhood and into teenagers and men that people fear for no reason other than the color of their skin? Do you know how they teach them to not make eye contact and to avoid putting their hands in their pockets? Do you understand that black men are incarcerated at much higher rates than white men and not because they are committing more crimes, but because they are prosecuted with stronger sentences and often in communities with juror bias? Did you read the link I posted and see just how many young unarmed black men are being killed?
If these were young white men, we would not be having this conversation because those cops would have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
This is a huge problem that doesn't begin and end with Freddie Gray.
Obviously, I can't speak for the OP. But I can honestly say that I while I may have "known" some of these things, I didn't really understand (as best an upper middle class white girl can)a lot of it until far too recently. It was not a chosen ignorance. It's certainly nothing I'm proud of, but it just wasn't something I had dealt closely with until then.
While I now understand why people would get outraged by ignorance, I also think that people need to understand that all ignorance is not created equal. There are people who just "don't get it" because they've never taken the opportunity to learn, and then there are the ignorant people who watch too much Fox News, talk to racist people, etc and have formed a solid opinion from there. (At that point, however, they're stupid, not ignorant. They've learned, but chosen poorly.)
Sorry, but she made a pretty ignorant and bordering on racist statement when she said that black men are killing police and nobody is rioting about that. TBH, it sounds a lot like "these black people are out here rioting and being violent! But nobody does anything when white cops are killed by black men!"
I admit I missed that. If that was the intention, then I understand.
However, though I cannot think of a specific situation, I'm sure that the Lilac of 5-10 years ago said something that would have been racist. I would have been horrified to be labeled as such, though!
I guess my point is that rather point and scream "racist!" it is more beneficial to explain WHY something is racist. Then, if the person continues to hold strong on their opinion, by all means, continue!
Post by underwaterrhymes on Apr 26, 2015 21:29:30 GMT -5
lilac05 - I do get what you're trying to say and that's why I'm trying to be patient here because I get the feeling OP was spouting off about something she in reality knows nothing about rather than trying to spark a contentious debate.
She did make several statements that were racist, although she may not have intended them as such.
I am also white and upper middle class, but I spent the first ten years of my life in a predominantly lower income and black neighborhood in Temple Hills, MD. The inequity I saw when I moved to a more affluent (and whiter, albeit still fairly diverse) neighborhood in the neighboring county was extreme.
So I don't have a lot of patience for someone who lets themselves exist in a bubble when there is so much opportunity to expose yourself to other perspectives. And it makes me sad, too, because I really don't know how we put an end to the killing of innocent black men (and women) when so many people are content to turn a blind eye to it.
Sorry, being black my whole life has me weary of constantly needing to explain, especially to adults. That comment requires no explanation. If someone really wants to learn and know they can do their own research. Or at least recognize your audience, she should've known that shit wasn't going to fly here.
The mark was absolutely missed with knowing your audience, I completely agree there.
I don't think I can clearly express what I'm thinking right now, so I'll just say that you shouldn't HAVE to explain anything. I agree with you. In an ideal world, everyone would know and understand everything that so significantly impacts such a large portion of our population. (And there's no sarcasm there, promise!)
So I don't have a lot of patience for someone who lets themselves exist in a bubble when there is so much opportunity to expose yourself to other perspectives. And it makes me sad, too, because I really don't know how we put an end to the killing of innocent black men (and women) when so many people are content to turn a blind eye to it.
I think the biggest problem is that until relatively recent media attention, a lot of people never really understand that they WERE living in that bubble. So people weren't necessarily content to turn a blind eye so much as they didn't realize how bad the problem was. (Using past tense because the media attention has changed that...finally!)
Before relatively recent coverage, people tried to explain away statistics with arguments like "you can prove anything you want in research"...no one was connecting enough of the dots for the general public for people to understand how this problem is systemic and huge. Thankfully, the easily accessible media is doing that now and people are starting to understand. It won't happen overnight, unfortunately.
It's a gross lack of education, formal & informal.
I don't even know how to say this effectively, but you defending the OP here based on you believing that you'd have been appalled if you had said something racist and the been called a racist based on that statement is not ok. Pointing out racist or bigoted comments is not done based on if the person will be appalled with themselves, it's based on the fact that the comment was racist or bigoted. furthermore, she defended her ignorant racist statements, there was more than one, so it's not like it was her mispeaking. It was pretty clear those were her true feelings.
You don't get to decide if she is racist or not, or if she meant it or not.
being uncomfortable about being called a racists for making racists statements should be the fire under your ass to continue to educate yourself, you being everyone not lilac specifically. But the OP doesn't seem to be genuine in her newly educated self, and frankly I don't even see this as a pile on.
I wasn't defending the OP. I have no idea what her intentions are, nor is it my place to decide if she's racist. I apologize if I gave that impression.
As far as how I would have felt about being called a racist, I think we agree here. In my mind, I absolutely was not a racist. If someone had asked me, I would have denied it. In reality, I was and just honestly didn't know it. When I realized it (immediate upon having discussions with people and reading more into issues), I immediately changed my thinking. The knowledge did light a fire under me to do something about it!
I think my point is that if someone had just said, "you're a racist idiot!" it would not have had the impact that someone saying, "do you realize how that comes across? Do you see how XYZ is not actually true?" had on me. Because I didn't believe that was me in any way, shape, or form (of course, that doesn't change the fact that some of those things WERE racist).
"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"
This was how I grew up. Since I never wished any ill on anyone, thought everyone deserved equal rights, respect, etc, I thought I was good...until I realized how wrong my definition of racism was. I'm off to read the rest. Thank you for sharing.
I hope my lack of ability to clearly explain myself hasn't put me on the spreadsheet as an asshole. I had no intentions of defending the OP, just saying that some ways are better than others to help people realize how wrong they are. I apologize for not making myself clear and frustrating people in the process. Note to self: while I'm crazy stressed about lots of things in my life, I should probably stick to discussions about paint colors, gardens, and kid stuff.
I would be scared with riots outside of my house. Whether or not they are justified, I would still be scared of them. I would be afraid of my baby getting caught in something out of hand because she cannot choose whether or not to participate so I have to make the choices for her.
I live in Paris and there was a massive protest a few months ago regarding the Charlie Hebdo shootings. While DH wanted to go and protest and I understood that and supported him, there was no way in hell my daughter was going to be anywhere near it. those were peaceful protests and I was still scared for my husband, but I thought it important for him to be there.
My top priority is the immediate physical safety of my child. When that is met, I take my small-minded little self and try to understand what is going on around me. Granted, I hadn't even heard of the Baltimore riots until I opened this thread and had to look it up to see what is going on.
Being legit scared for her physical safety and that of her child seems like a normal response to seeing a riot. Mob mentality is a real thing and can lead to accidents that no individual would have wanted for anyone.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Apr 27, 2015 6:49:27 GMT -5
@myblue - did you read the thread and OP's posts?
First, I believe OP lives in VA, not Baltimore. So this isn't exactly happening in her front yard.
Second, she did not express fear for the safety of her child should things get out of hand. She said things like, (and I'm loosely quoting here) "black people kill cops all the time and no one protests" and "black people are attacking white people just because they are white."
Big difference. The first is an understandable reaction. Even if you understand and empathize with why something is happening, you can still want to protect your child.
First, I believe OP lives in VA, not Baltimore. So this isn't exactly happening in her front yard.
Second, she did not express fear for the safety of her child should things get out of hand. She said things like, (and I'm loosely quoting here) "black people kill cops all the time and no one protests" and "black people are attacking white people just because they are white."
Big difference. The first is an understandable reaction. Even if you understand and empathize with why something is happening, you can still want to protect your child.
The second is ignorance and racism.
I read it all really quickly while at the same time looking up the story about what is happening and also while at work, so I might have mixed up details. I thought she said she was in Baltimore and that it was in her neighborhood...
First, I believe OP lives in VA, not Baltimore. So this isn't exactly happening in her front yard.
Second, she did not express fear for the safety of her child should things get out of hand. She said things like, (and I'm loosely quoting here) "black people kill cops all the time and no one protests" and "black people are attacking white people just because they are white."
Big difference. The first is an understandable reaction. Even if you understand and empathize with why something is happening, you can still want to protect your child.
The second is ignorance and racism.
I read it all really quickly while at the same time looking up the story about what is happening and also while at work, so I might have mixed up details. I thought she said she was in Baltimore and that it was in her neighborhood...
I get the knee jerks reaction of being scared by sudden violence. But yeah, lesson learned to educate yourself better on current events. I know it's different for me being in Canada where our race issues are a little different (aboriginals baring the brunt) but I'll admit to being ignorant of a lot of the daily racism faced by black Americans up until very recently. I lived in a nice middle class white girl bubble.
I think it was a post on CEP about black mothers teaching their sons how to respond to police (around the time of the Ferguson riots) that really opened my eyes to the essentially institutionalized racism.