In Laws and Birthdays

[redheadk]

I'm saying, don't have a cultural CTJ with her. Just go get a glass of wine and hang out with her. Invite her to dinner out, just the two of you, go shopping, whatever. Have her meet you at the park with your DS and hang out. Don't talk family stuff, don't talk cultural stuff, just chat about your favorite books and movies like you would with any other person. Develop a friendship.

[ECB]

May 13, 2015 18:07:21 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

I'm not sure what stake you have in this to prove she is not at fault,

I'm not trying to prove she's not at fault.  It's just the more you tell us, the more I see how you and your family has added to the problem.  Which is really where this is all at now- going around in circles.  She may have started off on the wrong foot with you all, but somewhere in this, your cultural expectations seem to have overridden allowance for who she is and what's important to her.

As far as your dad goes, I didn't realize he was out of the country. If you said that earlier, I missed it and yes, clearly, that plays a role in his flexibility. But - you know what I"m going to say here - your brother had a say in the wedding date too. So all this frustration at her absolutely has to lie at his feet too. I know you say that you now realize that, but so much of this seems to be ingrained - not putting the blame on him because he's family and in turn, finding fault in anything she does - that I wonder if you're really going to keep it in perspective that a lot of this is about your brother too.  It's easier to blame the outsider....  

I genuinely say good luck.  This is all a deep mess and I don't know what the solution is.  And all my responses to you have been in a genuine effort to help, even if you think otherwise. 

[Muddled]

May 13, 2015 18:12:00 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

May 13, 2015 18:09:02 GMT -5 Muddled said:

I am having trouble seeing why any of this is your problem. Her relationship with your brother is not yours to fix (although I do not understand why he is marrying her if he complains about her as much as you make it seem). Her relationship with your parents is not yours to fix.

Now, if you don't want to have her over to dinner anymore, *that* is under your control.

Going back up to the part about social expectations of first borns in Korean families.

I think you have already reached the conclusion that it is useless to try and control the actions of another adult. There's just nothing you can do. This is between her and your brother.

I can imagine that stepping back may give you a case of the guilts, but don't. She doesn't have to be your BFF just because she is marrying your brother. People are people. It is what it is.

[noodleoo]

May 13, 2015 18:11:13 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

May 13, 2015 18:07:28 GMT -5 redheadk said:

The more I read, the more I agree with this. I'm guessing at this point that she comes to things because your brother wants her to but he doesn't really care how she acts. She knows you hate her but all she has to do to keep him happy with her is to be there. That's it. So she's said fuck it, because you honestly don't seem interested in getting to know her, you are interested in her complying with your culture.

You may not agree with that at all, but every single one of your responses has boiled down to you (your family) wanting her to submit entirely to your cultural expectations of her. Your brother doesn't actually seem to care if she does, but rather that he cares that drama ensues. The actions themselves are unimportant to him.

I know you've tossed the idea of giving her a cultural CTJ talk but how about trying to do things just you and her? Reach out to her, outside of all the family stuff, and just get to know her as a person. She's much more likely to come around and play nice culturally if she has a friend in the family.

ETA: The wedding date issue is squarely on you brother's shoulders here. 

See, I am not sure where we are disagreeing now. I agree? But I have been told by numerous people, including noodleoo, whose experiences seem most related to this situation, that a CTJ talk about cultural expectations is a bad idea, so I am stepping out of the rink. I am done being the fixer and buffer. I am done being the person my brother comes to to complain about his fiancée being upset and expecting me to fix it. I am done.

I'm sorry this is causing you so much pain and grief. I only suggest you NOT have a come to Jesus talk with her because based on your continual posts, I think it will come off as  judgemental and attacking to her. If you can manage to try to actually be friends with her that could probably help the relationship. But honestly, based on everything you keep writing and how you keep defending your side of the story while attacking hers I highly doubt you can actually have a productive conversation with her. 

 I go back to previous peoples advice. You need to learn to let this stuff go and realize that you can only control yourself, you can't make her fit into your family/culture no matter how much you want to.

[redheadk]

May 13, 2015 18:15:44 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

May 13, 2015 18:13:46 GMT -5 redheadk said:

I'm saying, don't have a cultural CTJ with her. Just go get a glass of wine and hang out with her. Invite her to dinner out, just the two of you, go shopping, whatever. Have her meet you at the park with your DS and hang out. Don't talk family stuff, don't talk cultural stuff, just chat about your favorite books and movies like you would with any other person. Develop a friendship.

She doesn't want to. Even pre-issues. I gave her space. Later, it came out that she thinks I am a ridiculous parent for not going out with my friends (which I do and did a lot at the time and still do), and not having hobbies (which I do) Since then, no, I haven't asked.

You're right though, she was not invested in our family from the start and this thread has made me understand that. She's invested in my brother.

I'm sorry, that sucks. I'm sure that it's hard, especially since you are a close family. 

At this point, it's probably best for you to just step out of it (like you said) and let it go. She wants to sit in the corner and play on her phone? Fine, the rest of you can have a good time and she can just be like a piece of furniture. Don't be rude but don't worry about her, either. KWIM? 
On the bright side, at least she's quiet and passive rather than loud, obnoxious, and argumentative at every turn. 

[felicity]

May 13, 2015 18:44:03 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

May 13, 2015 18:39:06 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

who told you these things? (that she thinks you are a ridiculous parent, and that you don't have hobbies, etc) 

My brother. So yes, the issue is him.

He called me up and basically lit into me.

Him: S is upset you didn't go to the ball game with us. She thinks you guys are ridiculous for staying at home with Thor instead of football. She also thinks it's ridiculous you took him to San Francisco and doesn't understand why you didn't just leave him at home with a babysitter for the weekend.

Me: ... I have nothing to say to that. Bye.

So at first when I started reading this thread, I was all, why is your brother marrying this awful girl? Then the more I'm reading, I'm all, hmm, brother seems like he might not be helping things.

Now? Well, he sounding like kind of an asshole for telling you she said those things. And I'm guessing he didn't do a very good job explaining the cultural expectations before she broke all the rules and had everybody hating her. She is certainly not right in her continued actions, but perhaps a lot of this set the tone and colored her view of your family. 

[origami]

The whole "I refuse to say hi first" vs "Yeah, well I REFUSE TO SAY HI FIRST" sounds like a power struggle. I'm actually very curious who will win. A Korean mother, or a snatchy, entitled American. What a match up!

I know you've accepted your brother is a problem so I don't want to beat a dead horse, but he really is doing the opposite of what he should be doing. He's creating dissension instead of eliminating it. He needs to smooth things over with your parents and you, and also get his GF in line. If she can't be made to get in line I would be wondering why he tolerates her disdain of your family? Maybe he has unresolved issues with your parents. I don't know.

[gibbinator]

May 13, 2015 18:15:44 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

May 13, 2015 18:13:46 GMT -5 redheadk said:

I'm saying, don't have a cultural CTJ with her. Just go get a glass of wine and hang out with her. Invite her to dinner out, just the two of you, go shopping, whatever. Have her meet you at the park with your DS and hang out. Don't talk family stuff, don't talk cultural stuff, just chat about your favorite books and movies like you would with any other person. Develop a friendship.

She doesn't want to. Even pre-issues. I gave her space. Later, it came out that she thinks I am a ridiculous parent for not going out with my friends (which I do and did a lot at the time and still do), and not having hobbies (which I do) Since then, no, I haven't asked.

You're right though, she was not invested in our family from the start and this thread has made me understand that. She's invested in my brother.

I think this hits the nail on the head. She was willing to play nice until it was determined that she actually had to DO something to fit in. And she's just not willing to make any effort. I keep waffling back and forth on who's at fault here, what the mix of blame is etc etc. But honestly it sounds exhausting to even try to extend an olive branch at this point. I can totally see why she's BEC for you. But I also think your brother is a big part of why things have devolved so.

[anna7602]

May 13, 2015 19:03:22 GMT -5 origami said:

I know you've accepted your brother is a problem so I don't want to beat a dead horse, but he really is doing the opposite of what he should be doing. He's creating dissension instead of eliminating it. He needs to smooth things over with your parents and you, and also get his GF in line. If she can't be made to get in line I would be wondering why he tolerates her disdain of your family? Maybe he has unresolved issues with your parents. I don't know.

I feel like jumping up and down and saying, "ding! ding! ding!" It sounds like (from my very superficial reading of a lot of pages in the middle of this thread) you and your brother might have a different view of what's reasonable even within your own culture/family dynamic. If I had to guess, he's happy to use his wife as an excuse to do things more his own way v. your family's way. And I'm sure this would be the case whether he was marrying this specific woman or someone else whom he could also use as a "sorry, my loyalties are to my wife now" kind of cover. This doesn't make him an asshole, though. At least not in my book. Questioning the obligations you were raised to honor seems fairly normal. 

[sent]

May 13, 2015 22:15:46 GMT -5 TamiTaylor said:

Only child married to an only child FTW!

My husband is an only child.  That didn't prevent his parents and extended family from creating spunbutterfly levels of drama with me.

The problem here is mainly your brother which I see you've realized.  Why all the blame on her for picking a date that has your dad inconveniently traveling back and missing brunch?  Where was your brother who should've said "wait, that date doesn't work for me because of my dad's schedule."  

[ECB]

May 13, 2015 21:21:50 GMT -5 spunbutterfly said:

Literally, just realized this today/last night. After reading all this about misplaced anger and who the real issue is here. He only came over to my house when he didn't want to cook or go out for dinner. He only calls my mom up to have Thursday night dinner when he wants her to pay for sushi.

im sorry. my brother is a user and it's infuriating, to say the least.

[redheadk]

May 14, 2015 11:26:35 GMT -5 newnamesameperson said:

May 13, 2015 18:36:24 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

I will admit I skipped a couple of pages in the middle, but I think your expectations are outrageous. Not in the OP, but as it went on OMG. The whole thing is exhausting and SIL will never live up to your high expectations, so she probably is like why even try. But I also have in-laws that make me feel that way. Maybe your brother wants to have dinner with you 4x a week and she is coming along to be nice to him but doesn't really want to because it is stressful to her. Because I would be completely stressed out and not enjoying myself in that company.

No she shouldn't be rude. She should speak when entering a home. She should offer to help (even though she probably doesn't want to). But damn. I am sure the list of your family's dissaprovals is written all over your faces.

I guess I am kinda team FSIL.

I'm here.  Your OP didn't have me on anyone's side in particular but your responses were so strongly against her that I began to feel empathy for her.   Seriously what's wrong with your brother?  How old is he that he can't find a more tactful way to relay difficult situations than placing all of the blame on her.  I'm sure he does the same when he speaks directly to her about your family.   

This is a great point. I wonder how he presents all of this to her. I'm guessing that he's doing the same to her as he is to you and that that is really the root cause of all the dissention.