My husband graduated from a great law school with a good gpa, passed the bar and he still got stuck volunteering for a year at the courthouse - he's paid now and makes $50k - he's much happier working at the court b/c they have shorter hours and better benefits.
Post by thedutchgirl on Aug 15, 2012 19:29:43 GMT -5
I have to confess that the notion that someone went to law school for the past three years and has no idea of the realities of the job market and salaries completely blows my mind.
To some extent I understand the flames about not seeing this coming, but generally I don't think he did anything abnormal.
1. He looked at what was purported to be the average starting salaries for attorneys from his school and for our area of the country 2. He talked to people who are attorneys about what to expect after graduation 3. He inferred from his $17/hour law student job (which would work out to 35k annually for 40 hours flat per week) that once he is a 'real lawyer' he could expect markedly more than that 4. Everyone we spoke with in 2008, when he applied to law school, said we were in a rough patch but it would get better soon
I work in public policy, and in a benevolent field no less. I make 90 grand a couple of years out of school. I'll be entirely honest that we expected he would earn more than me and quickly... probably in no small part because of the stereotype that lawyers are rich, and TBH probably also with a dash of the aforementioned youthful arrogance.
Thank goodness that second kid is just a twinkle in my eye still.
Post by thedutchgirl on Aug 15, 2012 21:17:37 GMT -5
I have to seriously question any lawyer who told him anything other than the market blows and salaries are not what schools claim they are. The lawyers on this board shout about it all the time, and my colleagues in a big firm all seem to get it too. I'm sorry he was misled. The NY Times and others have written pretty extensively the past couple years about the significant problems with legal education, the job market, and salaries. You and your H should seek out and read those stories.
Please tell me his expectation of making markedly more than 90K was based on him going to a T10 school. Sadly, I think that is not the case.
Has he ever read Above the Law? Even once?
I certainly had some expectations of getting a firm job after I graduated. But I started law school in 2002. And only looked at top 20 schools (and went to a T10). I knew that outside the top 20 the likelihood of landing a firm job went down considerably. And again, that was when the economy was good.
To OP that salary is about right. I know paralegals making more that JDs at PI firms.
That said his salary should increase fairly rapidly as he starts getting his own cases, etc. A lot of PI firms pay low bases but then decent bonuses as cases settle.
A senior associate at a PI firm usually makes somewhere around 80-100k but that is 7+ years out of school.
Thanks for the info, no matter how hard it is to hear it.
Regarding how he made it this far without knowing. Eh. It's hard to say... we certainly knew the jobs were harder to find but were optimistic about that. We did look at our area's average salaries (in addition to the school's) but I guess the bimodal aspect isn't really accounted for in those estimates. As a student he was making $17/hour assisting an attorney so I still find it jarring that as an attorney himself he will probably make less than that when you do the math out per hour.
Still interested in hearing responses to the original post, but now I have a related question: how does anyone earn a living as an attorney? After taxes 40k wouldn't cover two kids in daycare and his law school loans. Ok, now I might spew
To answer your second question - DH and I are both 2008 JD's. We've been very lucky to always have jobs and generally earn just over 100k combined. It's awful. I feel bad complaining about six figures but with our loans and our HCOL city it is terrible. Our cars are 12 and 14 years old, we did buy a house but rent out our basement, we have savings only because we have literally never taken a family vacation, never go out to a nice dinner except one time per year, I could go on. I feel like we are only slightly better off than my parents were, neither of whom attended college and were firmly blue collar. We both worked second jobs before my son was born but now I hate to be away from him more than I already am.
We knew it would be tough but the reality is harder than I expected. Plus I planned to move to a LCOL area but then I met DH and his whole family is here so he doesnt want to leave. I pray everyday that he gets a fed job soon because it's the only hope I see to get us out of this financial situation.
Again, we are not starving and even have savings, but day to day life is hard and we count every fucking penny. It's good that you make 90k. Your family is going to need that income.
To some extent I understand the flames about not seeing this coming, but generally I don't think he did anything abnormal.
1. He looked at what was purported to be the average starting salaries for attorneys from his school and for our area of the country 2. He talked to people who are attorneys about what to expect after graduation 3. He inferred from his $17/hour law student job (which would work out to 35k annually for 40 hours flat per week) that once he is a 'real lawyer' he could expect markedly more than that 4. Everyone we spoke with in 2008, when he applied to law school, said we were in a rough patch but it would get better soon
I work in public policy, and in a benevolent field no less. I make 90 grand a couple of years out of school. I'll be entirely honest that we expected he would earn more than me and quickly... probably in no small part because of the stereotype that lawyers are rich, and TBH probably also with a dash of the aforementioned youthful arrogance.
Thank goodness that second kid is just a twinkle in my eye still.
Didn't he talk to any of his classmates, ever, while in law school though? Going in with unrealistic expectations is one thing. Coming out with them is another.
I'm not trying to make you or your DH feel bad, but he was making $17/hr during school at a firm similar to what he is looking at now. I don't see how you thought this would jump to close to $90k. Firms that pay big law money to associates pay a prorated amount of the same big law money to their summer associates. This is really common knowledge amongst law students.
I'm not trying to make you or your DH feel bad, but he was making $17/hr during school at a firm similar to what he is looking at now. I don't see how you thought this would jump to close to $90k. Firms that pay big law money to associates pay a prorated amount of the same big law money to their summer associates. This is really common knowledge amongst law students.
eh, I disagree somewhat. When I was a summer associate/law clerk, I also only earned $17.50 per hour billed at the firm I was hired (on the small side of mid-sided). That comes out to $31,500 for my 18000 billable requirement---- but I earned much more than that when I was hired as an attorney ($55K). Ok, its not 90K, but its certainly more than 40K.
To OP that salary is about right. I know paralegals making more that JDs at PI firms.
That said his salary should increase fairly rapidly as he starts getting his own cases, etc. A lot of PI firms pay low bases but then decent bonuses as cases settle.
A senior associate at a PI firm usually makes somewhere around 80-100k but that is 7+ years out of school.
Again, I dont have PI experience, but 80-100K is about right for a 7 year senior associate in small law. This is my salary range.
I'm not trying to make you or your DH feel bad, but he was making $17/hr during school at a firm similar to what he is looking at now. I don't see how you thought this would jump to close to $90k. Firms that pay big law money to associates pay a prorated amount of the same big law money to their summer associates. This is really common knowledge amongst law students.
eh, I disagree somewhat. When I was a summer associate/law clerk, I also only earned $17.50 per hour billed at the firm I was hired (on the small side of mid-sided). That comes out to $31,500 for my 18000 billable requirement---- but I earned much more than that when I was hired as an attorney ($55K). Ok, its not 90K, but its certainly more than 40K.
Without knowing what they were paying other associates there, would you have been shocked to get an offer around $40k?
eh, I disagree somewhat. When I was a summer associate/law clerk, I also only earned $17.50 per hour billed at the firm I was hired (on the small side of mid-sided). That comes out to $31,500 for my 18000 billable requirement---- but I earned much more than that when I was hired as an attorney ($55K). Ok, its not 90K, but its certainly more than 40K.
Without knowing what they were paying other associates there, would you have been shocked to get an offer around $40k?
yes.
BUT. I also graduated in 2005 (ie much better economy than now) in HCOL. Most of my friends who did not go into the public sector or BigLaw earned in the 50-75K range- I was actually on the low end at 55K and was pissed about that. Then when I didn't get a raise my first year, I bailed for greener pastures. Although I think that was a mistake in the long run bc my first firm is much more well known and lots of people leave for regional firms making much higher salaries. oh well, hindsight is 20/20.
Without knowing what they were paying other associates there, would you have been shocked to get an offer around $40k?
yes.
BUT. I also graduated in 2005 (ie much better economy than now) in HCOL. Most of my friends who did not go into the public sector or BigLaw earned in the 50-75K range- I was actually on the low end at 55K and was pissed about that. Then when I didn't get a raise my first year, I bailed for greener pastures. Although I think that was a mistake in the long run bc my first firm is much more well known and lots of people leave for regional firms making much higher salaries. oh well, hindsight is 20/20.
I think what you are saying is more reasonable than the OP, though. In that, your expectations are grounded in what your classmates were actually making at similar jobs. I am in a MCOL and I feel like I would have been hardpressed to find a first year at a PI sole practioner job making over $60k. $90k sounds like a pipe dream. And I graduated in 2007, so when things were pretty much peak.
BUT. I also graduated in 2005 (ie much better economy than now) in HCOL. Most of my friends who did not go into the public sector or BigLaw earned in the 50-75K range- I was actually on the low end at 55K and was pissed about that. Then when I didn't get a raise my first year, I bailed for greener pastures. Although I think that was a mistake in the long run bc my first firm is much more well known and lots of people leave for regional firms making much higher salaries. oh well, hindsight is 20/20.
I think what you are saying is more reasonable than the OP, though. In that, your expectations are grounded in what your classmates were actually making at similar jobs. I am in a MCOL and I feel like I would have been hardpressed to find a first year at a PI sole practioner job making over $60k. $90k sounds like a pipe dream. And I graduated in 2007, so when things were pretty much peak.
Oh I agree with you. I also was in a firm, not working for a solo, and not in PI. But I was just saying that small law varies so much and that what he was making in law school may not necessarily be indicative of what he could expect out of school.
That being said, I know 40K is about average starting salary now working for a solo even in my area. Salaries for small law have plummeted, if there are jobs at all.
Sometimes people believe what they want to believe until reality slaps them in the face. OP does he have really high student loans? B/c if your combined HHI will be $130,000 it doesn't sound to me like you'll be struggling all that much.
Meh, it's entirely possible that her husband actually did know what starting salaries were, and either has been in denial, hasn't been upfront with his wife, or the wife has been in denial. I've been with my husband since before I started law school. We had numerous conversations about what starting salaries were, and I don't think he really believed it. It took him a very long time to come around to understanding that I'm not underpaid compared to my peers.
So, I don't think it's shocking or absurd that a non-lawyer doesn't have a clue about what a MCOL solo personal injury practitioner earns, especially given that large lawyer paydays are always in the news and that's how people like John Edwards became rich. I mean, most people (including other lawyers) think I make six figures because my firm was in the news once years before I started working here for a multi-million dollar settlement. LOLZ. My firm (and me personally) have received hate mail because people think we are greedy sharks and all that is wrong with America. Contingency fee litigation baffles many, and certain segments of the population have been very effective at convincing many that all trial lawyers are rich fat cats.
I think it's definitely weird that a lawyer wouldn't have a ballpark idea of what starting salaries are at solos, but we don't know for sure that he didn't. I also don't think so far off base for him to be surprised at $40k because that is just about the very lowest end, but I would think its weird for him to be surprised at $50k or just about any other higher salary.
This also confirms that I'll definitely be encouraging my kids to follow dh into medicine. Even as a pediatrician (low pay relative to most), it would be unheard of to make less than 6 figures. At least when you have a huge mountain of school debt, you can be pretty assured that you'll be able to pay it off.
LOL. There are worthwhile careers outside of law and medicine.
This thread is depressing. I agree there probably are a glut of lawyers, but the notion that law schools will take ANYONE with a bachelor's and a pulse is incorrect.
I was accepted into law school in 2002 and deferred admission for a year (tier 2 state school) because I landed a decent paying non-law job and wanted to try to save up some money so I wouldn't have to take out as many loans. The dean of admissions was a friend of a friend, and when I spoke to him about deferring admission, he told me flat out that if I had a good job to keep it because law school wasn't going anywhere.
One of my good friends/mentors was about 40 at the time and had a JD but hadn't been inside a courtroom since passing the bar. She told me that her JD probably added about 10K a year to what she could earn without it, but if she'd known she didn't really want to be a lawyer, she wouldn't have wasted the time and money.
I ended up meeting DH and moving out of state with him, and I never did go to law school. Looking back now, I'm thinking that was probably the right choice, given the starting salaries everyone is posting here.