Reasonable starting salary for JD

[mintea]

My DH is a newly minted JD and on the job hunt. Yesterday he got an offer working as an associate for a personal injury solo practitioner who is expanding.

That is wonderful and we are so glad... but then comes the salary talk and it looks like it will pay 40k/year and now we're both confused about how to proceed.

The last year his school has salary data for (2009) indicates the 6 months post-grad average salary was ~80k.We know the market has slid but has it slid this far? For context, we're in a major metro area with moderate cost of living (not NYC or anything).

He's having a hard time getting info on what a reasonable expected salary would be so we don't know whether this is a chance to jump at or if he should keep hunting. I know things are cutthroat right now and we can't afford for him to hunt forever... but 40k? It's the same as he made before law school.

[MrsAxilla]

Aug 14, 2012 22:21:20 GMT -5 mintea said:

The last year his school has salary data for (2009) indicates the 6 months post-grad average salary was ~80k.We know the market has slid but has it slid this far? For context, we're in a major metro area with moderate cost of living (not NYC or anything).

Sorry, but 40k sounds about right. His school probably fudged the salary data. Most schools do.

[Deleted]

Without giving away anything can you be more specific about where he will be practicing? I mean I started out at $42k and I was thanking my lucky stars just to have a job but I'm in a MCOL area. Did he just take the bar in July and this was his first offer so far? Is this an opportunity he is interested in? I don't want to tell you that he should take anything but most people I knew who graduated in me in 2006 if they didn't have a job by the time the summer was over their paths were a lot slower and more stressful. Good luck to you both.

Also the law schools lie about their salary data. Like a lot. It's pretty criminal.

[Deleted]

Not everyone can score the $160k starting salary.

[mx27]

salary is highly dependent upon where one practices, i.e., big law, government, public interest, corporation as well as the city in which one practices.

big law starts somewhere b/w 140s to 160s before bonus (higher salary in major metropolitan areas).

i started out at a medium sized firm in a HCOL area, but not in a major city, and i made low six figures.

thus, his school could have had a decent number of high earners with a few lower earners making the average in the 80s. i'm just saying, it's possible. like miso said, everyone can't get a 160+ salary right out of law school.

legal salaries vary greatly.

[y4m]

Is he seeing a lot of listings/opportunities? Are most of his classmates also looking? He might have to just take whatever he can get to get some work experience.

[Deleted]

40k doesn't surprise me in this market.

[hbomdiggity]

its a bimodal distribution - meaning that there is a group with biglaw jobs at $160k and there is another group around the 40-60k-ish? range. so the average may work out to be 80k, but if you are not biglaw, then it could be anything.

personal injury is pretty much a contingency fee based practice, so i wouldn't expect much more of a base salary than that, but (hopefully?) there would be bonus opportunities.

[ESF]

Like the others said, schools lie about starting salary data. They use different methods to do so, but generally, they tend to send targeted surveys that result in only certain people with highly paying jobs actually being counted in the data.

Sole practicioners in just about any field are going to be among the lowest paying jobs, probably only marginally better than public defense and various family law/public interest type positions.

If he does not have another offer, he should take this one, work his ass off, network with as many people as possible, and start sending his resume out again in 6-12 months. People do it all the time, and there's no shame in that.

[y4m]

Aug 14, 2012 22:36:53 GMT -5 hbomdiggity said:

its a bimodal distribution - meaning that there is a group with biglaw jobs at $160k and there is another group around the 40-60k-ish? range. so the average may work out to be 80k, but if you are not biglaw, then it could be anything.

This is a very good point

[thedash]

That sounds about right although I would expect some bonus structure as well. I'm right outside DC and small firms here start people in the 50-60 range.

How on earth did he make it this far with no specific salary information other than his law school's average? Everyone I know who finished recently is painfully aware of the lack of lawyer jobs and low salaries.

[mintea]

Thanks for the info, no matter how hard it is to hear it.

Regarding how he made it this far without knowing. Eh. It's hard to say... we certainly knew the jobs were harder to find but were optimistic about that. We did look at our area's average salaries (in addition to the school's) but I guess the bimodal aspect isn't really accounted for in those estimates. As a student he was making $17/hour assisting an attorney so I still find it jarring that as an attorney himself he will probably make less than that when you do the math out per hour.

Still interested in hearing responses to the original post, but now I have a related question: how does anyone earn a living as an attorney? After taxes 40k wouldn't cover two kids in daycare and his law school loans. Ok, now I might spew +o(

[vegas]

I would try to negotiate a bonus structure if he's working for a personal injury attorney. Maybe something like 40K the first 6 months, then after that 40K plus a percentage (say 3%) of the cases that settle that he handled, with a higher percentage for the cases he settles that he brought in to the firm (say 5-10%).

Personal injury can be quite lucrative if you can guarantee yourself a good bonus structure. Plus you can learn a lot litigating, I know I did.

[SJ]

Aug 14, 2012 23:47:16 GMT -5 mintea said:

Thanks for the info, no matter how hard it is to hear it.

Regarding how he made it this far without knowing. Eh. It's hard to say... we certainly knew the jobs were harder to find but were optimistic about that. We did look at our area's average salaries (in addition to the school's) but I guess the bimodal aspect isn't really accounted for in those estimates. As a student he was making $17/hour assisting an attorney so I still find it jarring that as an attorney himself he will probably make less than that when you do the math out per hour.

Still interested in hearing responses to the original post, but now I have a related question: how does anyone earn a living as an attorney? After taxes 40k wouldn't cover two kids in daycare and his law school loans. Ok, now I might spew

If you have 2 kids in daycare, doesn't that indicate there is a spouse with their own income as well?

I'm sorry for the rude awakening and I hope he can negotiate a solid bonus structure as others have mentioned.

[hockeywife]

My firm (7 attorneys, elder law) just hired an associate attorney for $35k...it's what he was asking for.

We're MCOL.

To answer your question re: how do you pay for 2 kids in daycare and your SL, you don't. I honestly couldnt afford it. Daycare here for an infant is ~$900/month, each (maybe with a small decrease for the 2nd child assuming they are in the toddler room), and when I started paying back my loans I was paying approximately $1200/month...

[Deleted]

Lurker here, but I'm with a small firm in a medium sized market (criminal defense and family law, not personal injury). 40s sound about right for base salary for recent graduates, but I would expect bonuses on top based on billings. Many people are surprised by small firm associate salaries, which in my area are comparable to public sector jobs but often without the same benefits. I started at a legal aid office for 48k right out of law school (great experience). From there, I joined a small firm, which matched my salary as a base and added bonuses tied to billings. Three years in, my actual income has steadily increased to a point I am happy with, yet nowhere near big firm levels. I don't know what the job market is like in your area, but my approach after law school was to take the first job offer, gain some experience and network, and try to grow from there. I should add that I do not have exorbitant student debt and we do not have kids.

[Bumblebee]

$40k starting salary sounds about right. Sorry.

[Deleted]

While I didn't start off that low, I'm in a HCOL area. I am on my third job in seven years- moving around helped increase my salary. I still earn under 100k, and I don't even work for a solo, or in PI.

There is no way I could afford daycare, our house, etc, without DH, where we live. His salary is a lot more than mine. I still have 95k left in loans.

I know it's not what you want to hear. But having been laid off once due to the economy, I'm happy I have a stable job.

I'd never rec law school to anyone unless they got into a tippy top school. Mine was good, but not good enough, esp for what I paid.

[Deleted]

Ditto the pps - 40k sounds about right. Can he negotiate for an increase when he passes the bar and is admitted and able to practice on his own?

Experience sometimes though is more valuable than the salary. H stayed at his law-school job for a year after law school (I think he was making 40k, maybe less, with no paid vacation, no benefits, - he was paid hourly, it sucked) but he was able to get a minimal amount of experience dealing with unions (he worked for the AG). Then he was able to use that experience (from arbitration hearings) to get a better paying job with a busy personal injury office with just two other lawyers. He had a ton of cases pending at any given time, and was really busy and stressed, but then after a year he was able to use that job as a springboard to his current job - with a repuatable firm, a higher salary, more benefits, etc. He'll probably stay where he is now for several years. He's not making over 100k, but he's making a lot more htan he was two years ago and he has the potential to continue making more. Had he not had that low-paying job at the AG, where he was able to get a bunch of experience in random areas, I don't think he would be where he is now and he is really happy now.

Point being - it stinks, but I look at the first job or two out of law school almost like residency for doctors - gain an expertise, get your feet wet, etc.

[LoveTrains]

My SIL and BIL are both lawyers. They graduated from a good but not got great school in 2010. $40K sounds about right for what I know BIL was making when he was working for a solo practioner. It sucks, but it is what it is.

[Deleted]

I made 33K my first year as a practicing lawyer (in a rural county), I make more than that now, but not anywhere near 80K, since I work for local government. I think that 40K is decent starting salary and agree with others who say that either the law schools fudge the numbers, or they take into account those who work for big law and start at 100K+ and that skews everyone else.

[Bob Loblaw]

I'll echo others that said 40k sounds right. But by no means should he stop looking elsewhere while working there. I took a job that paid less than 40k right out of school knowing I needed more to survive in the long run. I stayed for a year and then was able to find a new job that paid somewhat more. Six years later, I have tripled that starting salary.

[crazygame]

It sounds reasonable to me. We live in a MCOL area and my husband started at $48K. This was after two years of looking. He would not be able to pay his loans and live off of what he makes.

[anna7602]

Aug 15, 2012 6:17:50 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I'd never rec law school to anyone unless they got into a tippy top school. Mine was good, but not good enough, esp for what I paid.

This is what I don't get about the whole law school model. They all pretty much cost the same and most graduates end up with roughly the same amount of debt, and yet the reality regarding what they can actually make varies so vastly. WTF? Why don't people realize this?

I can't weigh in on the OP's question. I live in a VHCOL area where $40K seems pretty low for a professional degree, unless it's a non-profit type job.

[Brie]

JD 3 years out of law school, making $33K a year signing in. Whee!

Frankly, at this point, I'd be happy he has a job offer and take it. He can keep looking if he's not happy with the salary. It sucks, but the market is terrible right now and $40K a year (plus whatever you make) will at least make ends meet for most people. If his student loans are oppressive, he can look into income-based repayment.

An average is just that--it means some people make more, and some people make less. He drew the short end of the stick.

[kellbell191]

I took basically the same job straight out of law school in a MCOL for 42 k per year. I had no health insurance and no PTO but did have Bar fees, malpractice and CLE paid for. It was a better deal than being unemployed or trying to go solo myself. If its a solo looking to expand I would be more interested in what type of opportunities there are for him going forward. Will he get incentives for bringing cases in, bonuses ties to contingency fee cases, etc. I didn't get a very good deal, which is why I left 6 months later, but I have friends who stepped into contingency only positions with small local firms looking to expand who have done very well for themselves. They were aggressive about marketing, etc. and really took advantage of the opportunity to make it work. That said, I think they're topping out at 60 or 70 k right now, but the long term growth potential over the course of their careers is significant. You will never make big firm money, but the quality of life and the hours are a lot better IMO.

Whether or not this is a good opportunity for him depends a lot on the quality of his law school, his class rank, his work experience, and what he wants to do with the rest of his career. I'm assuming if this is the offer on the table that he doesn't have anything better lined up? You can get better offers post Bar results, but that's also kind of risky. I wouldn't see too much harm in doing it for a year if this is the only offer he has, but making sure he has a lot of growth potential $ wise.

[Deleted]

My first job (not counting the one that was more like a legal assistant position that paid $10/hour) paid ~$42,000/year. BUT it had no benefits.

I make more than that now, but I don't make anywhere close to $80,000. Also, my firm is run by psychos, and I don't even have access to a 401(k). I'm 5+ years out.

[njohnson1972]

I don't even have an advanced degree and this depresses me.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2012 8:38:46 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

Aug 15, 2012 6:17:50 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I'd never rec law school to anyone unless they got into a tippy top school. Mine was good, but not good enough, esp for what I paid.

This is what I don't get about the whole law school model. They all pretty much cost the same and most graduates end up with roughly the same amount of debt, and yet the reality regarding what they can actually make varies so vastly. WTF? Why don't people realize this?

because everyone thinks they will be in that 10% or whatever that will earn 160K upon graduation. I sure did.

I also went in with a large scholarship that I lost after my first year. So, going in, I thought I would have less debt than I do and thought I'd be making a hell of a lot more than I do.

[ladyk]

I'm 11.5 years out & the highest I've ever made was $67k, in 09, right before I got laid off...again. I'm making 20k less now & still looking. I live in a MCOL city (I think).