Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix -- HP Book Club

[Nonny]

REMINDER:  This thread is for Harry Potter veterans and first timers.
Please take care to use spoiler tags if you are revealing spoilers/foreshadowing of future books by using spoiler tags.

This is done by typing [ spoiler ] whatever you're spoiling [ / spoiler ], without the spaces.

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Harry spends much of the book angry, with a hair trigger temper, and appears full of teenage angst during much of the book. How much of that is him being a spoiled teenager, and how much is related to his connection to Voldemort?

Sirius Black and Harry share a very close bond. What are their similarities and differences, and how do these factors affect their relationship?

Discuss the trouble that Dolores Umbridge caused (because we all love to hate her), and compare it to the retaliatory trouble caused by Fred and George.

In previous books there was a lot of foreshadowing around mind reading, which we learn about in this book with Legilimency and Occlumency. Do you think Snape tried his hardest to actually teach Harry Occlumency? What other bad memories do you think he might have been storing in the Pensieve? How might things have turned out differently if Harry had listened to Hermione and talked to Dumbledore when Snape stopped tutoring him?

Dumbledore waited a long time to reveal the prophecy to Harry. Could Harry have been more successful in fighting Voldemort if he had this knowledge earlier?

Mrs. Figg is a squib, and the "horseless" carriages are actually pulled by thestrals. Do you think these reveals are a convenient deus ex machina, or a brilliant long planned setup from previous books?

For the veterans, did anything new stand out to you during your re-read? (Use spoiler tags if applicable.)

For the first timers, is there anything you read that you think will be sigificant going forward?

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As I said in the other thread, since there was no consensus around when to shift the discussion around the holiday, I'm posting the questions Monday, and I will tag everyone on Tuesday to bump the thread.

Next up, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.  Monday June 22, 2015 is four weeks from today, will that date work?

[ginandjucie24]

For some reason I thought we were already on the Halfblood Prince so I read that one instead.

[Nonny]

Bumping for everyone:

everyjuan, loonylunalovegood, cbwm1, isabel, Champagne Supernova, speckledfrog, CurlyQ284, textbookcase, MrsAxilla, litebright, @kizmet, btay, grayskies, @licia, RexManningDay, nicbreeful, eb777888, jigsy, SpartanGirl, runforrest, jigsy, 10outof9, escrow, goaskalice, lostrn, BaliHai, Booze Raccoon, aprilsails, incogneato, EloiseWeenie, hopecounts, @stilljustash, TrudyCampbell, ginandjucie24, @vicmo, @natariru, underwaterrhymes, nahoku, rex, anlo, @lazerus24, thebuddhagouda, wambam, rosiedozie, shamrockshake, sweetpea508, noradog, hermione, jodinia, lilybug, DaisyCakes, twirlermom, compassrose, jodippls, hopecounts, walterismydog, julianabixby, lust2hart, amberlyrose, christy082, bobotron3000, noodleskooze, karenj, msmerymac, @buckybells, rootbeerfloat, Ohhmm(bligo), DefenseAgainstTheDarkArts22, TrudyCampbell, tamaries, hazel, moreace01, BlackCanary, Pippin, aurora, ladybug, skwcm80, AllieHound, whitepicketfence, bluelikejazz, idahome, katespade, Amy, katfco, fozziebear, Dumbledork, anastasia517, cat98c, Knight, Yankees21, darnkatz, Monica Geller

[thebuddhagouda]

May 25, 2015 2:34:57 GMT -5 Nonny said:

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Harry spends much of the book angry, with a hair trigger temper, and appears full of teenage angst during much of the book. How much of that is him being a spoiled teenager, and how much is related to his connection to Voldemort?

I've always kind of felt for Harry about this. It's easy to forget he's 15. He's dealing with a load of responsibility and NO OUTLET. Dumbledore shuts him out. He can't really access Sirius with Umbridge on patrol. He has nobody to talk to and an ever growing list of horrible things happening. The only thing anyone will tell him is "keep your head down and stay out of trouble" and he's got freaking Voldemort intruding into his thoughts. It's just a lot for one kid to deal with. 

[rex]

ugh, this book was THE WORST. the movie was even more annoying. i kept huffing and puffing and pausing it to tell my h what they missed and complain lol

Harry spends much of the book angry, with a hair trigger temper, and appears full of teenage angst during much of the book. How much of that is him being a spoiled teenager, and how much is related to his connection to Voldemort? i do not like harry in general, so i do not think i can answer this fairly about him. i will say in general though, that jkr does a really good job of having her characters act according to their age. so while harry may be in a special circumstance, he is still a teenager. 

Sirius Black and Harry share a very close bond. What are their similarities and differences, and how do these factors affect their relationship?

Discuss the trouble that Dolores Umbridge caused (because we all love to hate her), and compare it to the retaliatory trouble caused by Fred and George. she was seriously evil, and fred and george are mischievous but have fun in mind. it also helps that they cause trouble to save the school from umbridge. 

In previous books there was a lot of foreshadowing around mind reading, which we learn about in this book with Legilimency and Occlumency. Do you think Snape tried his hardest to actually teach Harry Occlumency? What other bad memories do you think he might have been storing in the Pensieve? How might things have turned out differently if Harry had listened to Hermione and talked to Dumbledore when Snape stopped tutoring him?

SPOILER: Click to show

i am certain that snape put all of his memories regarding harry and lily in the pensieve and that is why he was so angry with harry. let's say harry was actually good at occulemcy, snape couldn't let harry know everything yet.

Dumbledore waited a long time to reveal the prophecy to Harry. Could Harry have been more successful in fighting Voldemort if he had this knowledge earlier? no, he could not have. i don't think knowing the prophecy would have changed anything, and i don't know that harry could have handled it before now. he has more experience with voldemort and is getting more of a grasp on how terrible voldemort and the death eaters really are. plus, once someone he loves dies again, harry has more motivation to fulfill his destiny. 

Mrs. Figg is a squib, and the "horseless" carriages are actually pulled by thestrals. Do you think these reveals are a convenient deus ex machina, or a brilliant long planned setup from previous books? i am going to give jkr the credit and say that she had some sort of plan. she really creates an entire world surrounding these novels and the depth is impressive. 

[aprilsails]

May 25, 2015 2:34:57 GMT -5 Nonny said:

REMINDER:  This thread is for Harry Potter veterans and first timers.
Please take care to use spoiler tags if you are revealing spoilers/foreshadowing of future books by using spoiler tags.

This is done by typing [ spoiler ] whatever you're spoiling [ / spoiler ], without the spaces.

**************************************************

Harry spends much of the book angry, with a hair trigger temper, and appears full of teenage angst during much of the book. How much of that is him being a spoiled teenager, and how much is related to his connection to Voldemort?

In previous books there was a lot of foreshadowing around mind reading, which we learn about in this book with Legilimency and Occlumency. Do you think Snape tried his hardest to actually teach Harry Occlumency? What other bad memories do you think he might have been storing in the Pensieve? How might things have turned out differently if Harry had listened to Hermione and talked to Dumbledore when Snape stopped tutoring him?

Mrs. Figg is a squib, and the "horseless" carriages are actually pulled by thestrals. Do you think these reveals are a convenient deus ex machina, or a brilliant long planned setup from previous books?

I think Harry has every right to be angry and it isn't that surprising given his age and what is going on around him. It does come across a little spoiled teenager sometimes, but I had a brother and he was no peach at the age of 15 so it is pretty realistic.

I think Snape is probably doing what he can to teach Harry Occlumency, but it just doesn't appear to be a skill that he possesses whatsoever. It doesn't help that he's tired out and also secretly wants to find out what Voldemort is up to. Obviously Snape gives up quickly when Harry explores his memories, which he shouldn't have done, but that is largely on Harry being a snoop.  I think Snape also probably hides

SPOILER: Click to show

his memories of him and Lily from their youth in the pensieve. Probably also his dealings with Voldemort since he's playing the double agent. In the last book it becomes really obvious that Harry cannot do Occulmency also.

I think Mrs. Figg as a squib is a planned event. On the other hand, the horseless carriages having horses bothers me. Considering that in the previous book Cedric died, which had a pretty profound impact on Harry (obviously to the point where he saw the Thestrals on his return to Hogwarts), one would think he would have noticed the Thestrals on his way out of the school in book 4. I guess it's not expressly mentioned, but my understanding is that they take the carriages both ways. This has always driven me insane.

[thebuddhagouda]

May 26, 2015 12:47:31 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

I think Mrs. Figg as a squib is a planned event. On the other hand, the horseless carriages having horses bothers me. Considering that in the previous book Cedric died, which had a pretty profound impact on Harry (obviously to the point where he saw the Thestrals on his return to Hogwarts), one would think he would have noticed the Thestrals on his way out of the school in book 4. I guess it's not expressly mentioned, but my understanding is that they take the carriages both ways. This has always driven me insane.

From an interview with J.K. 

Stephen Fry: […] Harry saw his parents die, so why hasn't he been able to see the Thestrals before?

JK Rowling: At the end of Goblet of Fire, we sent Harry home more depressed than he had ever been leaving Hogwarts. Now I knew that the Thestrals were coming and I can prove that because they are in the book that I produced for Comic Relief, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, these unlucky black winged horses.

However, if Harry had seen them then and we hadn't explained them then, I thought that would be rather a cheat on the reader in that Harry suddenly sees these monsters but we don't go anywhere with them, so to explain to myself I said that you had to have seen the death and allowed it to sink in a little bit before slowly these creatures became solid in front of you, so that's how I am going to sneak past that one.

[Nonny]

Harry spends much of the book angry, with a hair trigger temper, and appears full of teenage angst during much of the book. How much of that is him being a spoiled teenager, and how much is related to his connection to Voldemort?

I think it's a combo of both.  I'd be pretty pissed too if I was being kept in the dark constantly while being stuck away from my friends.  But think Voldemort invading his thoughts kind of acts as an emotional megaphone.  Voldy's angry and Harry is picking up on that, which in turn makes him angry, and turns his normal teen angst over girls and exams, and turns it into this blind rage.

This is actually one of the reasons I prefer watching the movie for book 5 over reading it, I feel like they toned down how big of an ass Harry was being to Ron and Hermione, making it easier to relate to him.

Sirius Black and Harry share a very close bond. What are their similarities and differences, and how do these factors affect their relationship?

I'm probably one of the few people who doesn't like Sirius.  I was shocked when he fell threw the veil, but I actually think he was kind of bad influence on Harry, and that Lily and James would have been really unhappy with him for some of the things he did.  Sirius constantly disregarded the advice from *everyone* to stay hidden, and while I'm sure it was incredibly hard for him, his recklessness put Harry in danger.  Not that Harry was some sort of saint, he put himself in danger all the time too, but Sirius was the adult here and he should have been more responsible and less of a buddy buddy.

Discuss the trouble that Dolores Umbridge caused (because we all love to hate her), and compare it to the retaliatory trouble caused by Fred and George.

OMG, I think wanted her to die more than any other character.  She just always seemed like a sadist to me.  I love Fred and George, and I wish the movie fireworks had been more spectacular when they made their final exit.  It always confused me that she would have thought it was Hagrid putting nifflers in her office.  Hagrid was always so, well, dim and distracted, with regards to what she was doing.  Did she honestly think it would even occur to Hagrid to sneak an animal into her office.

In previous books there was a lot of foreshadowing around mind reading, which we learn about in this book with Legilimency and Occlumency. Do you think Snape tried his hardest to actually teach Harry Occlumency? What other bad memories do you think he might have been storing in the Pensieve? How might things have turned out differently if Harry had listened to Hermione and talked to Dumbledore when Snape stopped tutoring him?

Snape was probably trying initially to teach Harry Occlumency, but I don't he was trying very hard.  Imagine how differently things would have gone if Snape was teaching it to Draco instead of Harry.  Not that Harry was actually trying to learn it, but I feel like there had to be more to something so complicated as Occlumency than "clear your mind." I also think Harry would have actually learned it if he was being taught it by someone like Lupin (although I don't think he would have actually used it). 

Dumbledore waited a long time to reveal the prophecy to Harry. Could Harry have been more successful in fighting Voldemort if he had this knowledge earlier?

I think Harry might have been even more reckless if he had known about the prophecy, but I don't think it would have helped him fight Voldemort in his previous interactions.  Say he knew the prophecy before the TriWizard tournament, he might have tried to do something other than Expelliarmus in the graveyard, and that could have resulted him being killed right then and there.

Mrs. Figg is a squib, and the "horseless" carriages are actually pulled by thestrals. Do you think these reveals are a convenient deus ex machina, or a brilliant long planned setup from previous books?

Mrs. Figg seemed like a great long game on her part, but I feel like the thestrals were kind of an afterthought.  It's always bugged me that he didn't see the thestrals at the end of book 4, and really, no one else mentioned them?  Neville can see them, but he never mentioned them to anyone?  I don't buy it.

For the veterans, did anything new stand out to you during your re-read?

 

SPOILER: Click to show

I noticed when Harry was invading Snape's memory that Snape uses an unknown spell that gashes James.  I think we just saw Sectum Sempra.

[rootbeerfloat]

May 26, 2015 13:09:58 GMT -5 Nonny said:

Sirius Black and Harry share a very close bond. What are their similarities and differences, and how do these factors affect their relationship?

I'm probably one of the few people who doesn't like Sirius.  I was shocked when he fell threw the veil, but I actually think he was kind of bad influence on Harry, and that Lily and James would have been really unhappy with him for some of the things he did.  Sirius constantly disregarded the advice from *everyone* to stay hidden, and while I'm sure it was incredibly hard for him, his recklessness put Harry in danger.  Not that Harry was some sort of saint, he put himself in danger all the time too, but Sirius was the adult here and he should have been more responsible and less of a buddy buddy.

I confess I didn't actually finish re-reading yet (b/c this is not one of my favorites), but I want to agree with this. Sirius bugs me less as I re-read, and I sort of like him in his letters, but I have never been a fan. He means well and is limited by everyone else, but he is so mopey and irresponsible.

[msmerymac]

Re: Mrs Figg, there is some foreshadowing of her being a Squibb. In the first book, Harry says how every year on Dudley's birthday, the Dursleys go out and leave him with Mrs Figg, who wants to show him pictures of her cats. She actually has a house somewhat reminiscent of Umbridge's office. Anyway, cats and cat/kneazle mixes (there's speculation that Crookshanks was part kneazle) are very common in the wizarding world, and could also have been a way to keep an eye on Harry.

[msmerymac]

May 26, 2015 13:09:58 GMT -5 Nonny said:

Sirius Black and Harry share a very close bond. What are their similarities and differences, and how do these factors affect their relationship?

I'm probably one of the few people who doesn't like Sirius.  I was shocked when he fell threw the veil, but I actually think he was kind of bad influence on Harry, and that Lily and James would have been really unhappy with him for some of the things he did.  Sirius constantly disregarded the advice from *everyone* to stay hidden, and while I'm sure it was incredibly hard for him, his recklessness put Harry in danger.  Not that Harry was some sort of saint, he put himself in danger all the time too, but Sirius was the adult here and he should have been more responsible and less of a buddy buddy.

I think his 13 years in Azkaban really stunted him emotionally, so I kind of see why. You can also see that with his continued hatred of Snape, even when Harry calls him out for being an immature asshole to Snape back when they were 15. I agree that Sirius and James were immature assholes, but they were less mature than Harry at that age for good reason. They were more typical kids than the Chosen One with the weight of the world on his shoulders. And Harry does his share of immature, dumb shit, too. 

[Monica Geller]

It's funny to me that so many of you don't like Harry in this book. This is one of my favorite books, and I think because Harry is so "normal" in it. FWIW, I teach middle school so maybe that's why I like Harry and the others in this book.   I do think some of  his angst is Voldmort's influence, but I think the vast majority of Harry's attitude is just being a teenager. 

It's not one of the questions, but I relate to the Umbridge story line because it often feels as though our own government is trying so hard to interfere in our education system and not allow teachers to do their jobs without ridiculous mandates and hoops to jump through. Hermione's line about the ministry interfering at Hogwarts always speaks to me. I often quote it at staff meetings when we're discussing some new thing from the DOE. 

I think Mrs. Figg was a planned event.  Thanks for that explanation thebuddhagouda! The thestrals and the fact that he doesn't see them until book 5 when he watched his mom die has always bothered me.  I still don't like it, but I'm glad JK acknowledged it.

Foreshadowing

SPOILER: Click to show

I love how this book sets up things for Deathly Hallows...Kreacher and the locket specifically. I remember after reading DH for the first time being so impressed with this set up.

[msmerymac]

I think I dislike this book because of Umbridge. She's SO frustrating!

Also, it really showed how JK Rowling's editor apparently decided to take a 5 year vacation around this point. The book needs to be cut back, badly.

[katfco]

Harry spends much of the book angry, with a hair trigger temper, and appears full of teenage angst during much of the book. How much of that is him being a spoiled teenager, and how much is related to his connection to Voldemort?
 I think there's a lot going on. This is the book where Harry really has to deal with not just Voldemort and teenage angst, but also grief. I think a lot of it has to do with Harry having to deal with experienced a severe trauma and trying to overcome that grief--and the loneliness and sense of isolation that trauma brings. 


Sirius Black and Harry share a very close bond. What are their similarities and differences, and how do these factors affect their relationship?
Both Harry and Sirius have been affected by personal loss and have personally fought against Voldemort, but while Harry lost the "what might have been," Sirius lost what was--he had a loving family (in the Potters), friends, and adventure, and all of that was taken away from him. In Harry, he hopes to rekindle that, but Harry isn't trying to bring back what he never had. He's just trying to get by. He also has lost so much, he's afraid to lose what little he does have. 


Discuss the trouble that Dolores Umbridge caused (because we all love to hate her), and compare it to the retaliatory trouble caused by Fred and George.
This is the book where we really get to see how much people underestimated Fred and George. Umbridge represented what happens when people are expected to obey unequivocally, and Fred and George represented the undermining rebellion that happens with every dictatorial regime. They also gave others their own opportunity to assist in the rebellion. 


In previous books there was a lot of foreshadowing around mind reading, which we learn about in this book with Legilimency and Occlumency. Do you think Snape tried his hardest to actually teach Harry Occlumency? I think Snape tried as hard as he could, but couldn't get past his dislike of Harry and James. 

What other bad memories do you think he might have been storing in the Pensieve?

SPOILER: Click to show

I'm guessing unhappy memories of Lily

How might things have turned out differently if Harry had listened to Hermione and talked to Dumbledore when Snape stopped tutoring him?
Dumbledore had to have known Snape had stopped, so I'm not sure if anything would have changed, but ideally, Dumbledore himself would have taken over teaching him or assigned someone else. 


Dumbledore waited a long time to reveal the prophecy to Harry. Could Harry have been more successful in fighting Voldemort if he had this knowledge earlier?
No, I think Harry would have become reckless in trying to kill Voldemort. Previously, his efforts were just to get away. 


Mrs. Figg is a squib, and the "horseless" carriages are actually pulled by thestrals. Do you think these reveals are a convenient deus ex machina, or a brilliant long planned setup from previous books?
Not sure about the carriages (after all, the boats are self-propelled also), but I bet Mrs. Figg was planned. One of the things that most bugged me about Dumbledore just leaving Harry was that there was no one to check on him or protect him. 


For the veterans, did anything new stand out to you during your re-read? (Use spoiler tags if applicable.)
The whole "teenagers entering the Ministry of Magic" thing bugs me. Why was it so easy?? Just anyone can get in after hours? Now, maybe the Death Eaters made it easier for them, but it still seemed remarkably simple. 

Also, the timeline bugs me. In Umbridge's office, as soon as Snape heard what Harry said, he contacted the Order, and once they determined Sirius was at home, they hightailed it to the Ministry. In that time, the kids had time to: walk through the forest; escape the forest; ride thestrals to London; break in to the Ministry; and fight Death Eaters. What the heck took the grown-ups so long??! 

One thing that bugs me is how distant Lupin is to Harry. Lupin was close to the Potters, but he never tried to reach out to Harry. I think he did Harry a huge disservice, and if he'd reached out to Harry more, maybe he wouldn't have felt Sirius's loss so deeply. 

[Nonny]

May 26, 2015 14:31:33 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

May 26, 2015 13:09:58 GMT -5 Nonny said:

Sirius Black and Harry share a very close bond. What are their similarities and differences, and how do these factors affect their relationship?

I'm probably one of the few people who doesn't like Sirius.  I was shocked when he fell threw the veil, but I actually think he was kind of bad influence on Harry, and that Lily and James would have been really unhappy with him for some of the things he did.  Sirius constantly disregarded the advice from *everyone* to stay hidden, and while I'm sure it was incredibly hard for him, his recklessness put Harry in danger.  Not that Harry was some sort of saint, he put himself in danger all the time too, but Sirius was the adult here and he should have been more responsible and less of a buddy buddy.

I think his 13 years in Azkaban really stunted him emotionally, so I kind of see why. You can also see that with his continued hatred of Snape, even when Harry calls him out for being an immature asshole to Snape back when they were 15. I agree that Sirius and James were immature assholes, but they were less mature than Harry at that age for good reason. They were more typical kids than the Chosen One with the weight of the world on his shoulders. And Harry does his share of immature, dumb shit, too. 

Oh, I totally agree that all the years in Azkaban messed him up, but I still don't think that excuses his behavior.  At some point I feel like Lupin should have been like, "Dude, get over what went on with Snape when we were teenagers, we have bigger fish to fry." 

[Nonny]

Totally unrelated to this book/movie, but they are doing an HP marathon on ABCFamily this weekend, and they keep showing the "Expecto Patronum" scene, and I keep thinking of this:

[Nonny]

OK, now I'm watching the HP marathon.

I really like what they did with the movie for Order of the Phoenix -- they edited the hell out of it to make it more manageable, and they toned down Harry's annoying behavior significantly.

[katfco]

May 30, 2015 22:12:00 GMT -5 Nonny said:

OK, now I'm watching the HP marathon.

I really like what they did with the movie for Order of the Phoenix -- they edited the hell out of it to make it more manageable, and they toned down Harry's annoying behavior significantly.

I'm so annoyed they're not showing Goblet of Fire. 

I thought they did a good job with OotP, but I do wish the twins' rebellion had been more pronounced. 
I loved how they filmed the scenes in the Ministry, and made it clearer why Voldemort left Harry's mind. My favorite part is when Neville tells Harry not to give up the prophecy. Everyone else is standing there, terrified, and it's Neville who's the strong one. 

[Nonny]

May 31, 2015 20:01:56 GMT -5 katfco said:

May 30, 2015 22:12:00 GMT -5 Nonny said:

OK, now I'm watching the HP marathon.

I really like what they did with the movie for Order of the Phoenix -- they edited the hell out of it to make it more manageable, and they toned down Harry's annoying behavior significantly.

I'm so annoyed they're not showing Goblet of Fire. 

I thought they did a good job with OotP, but I do wish the twins' rebellion had been more pronounced. 
I loved how they filmed the scenes in the Ministry, and made it clearer why Voldemort left Harry's mind. My favorite part is when Neville tells Harry not to give up the prophecy. Everyone else is standing there, terrified, and it's Neville who's the strong one. 

Setting up for further proof that Neville is a true Griffindor!

[katfco]

May 31, 2015 20:50:10 GMT -5 Nonny said:

May 31, 2015 20:01:56 GMT -5 katfco said:

I'm so annoyed they're not showing Goblet of Fire. 

I thought they did a good job with OotP, but I do wish the twins' rebellion had been more pronounced. 
I loved how they filmed the scenes in the Ministry, and made it clearer why Voldemort left Harry's mind. My favorite part is when Neville tells Harry not to give up the prophecy. Everyone else is standing there, terrified, and it's Neville who's the strong one. 

Setting up for further proof that Neville is a true Griffindor!

Absolutely. Honestly, I've always loved Neville more than Harry and thought Neville was the braver one. Harry had bravery thrust upon him; Neville chose bravery. 

[hopecounts]

May 31, 2015 21:12:09 GMT -5 katfco said:

May 31, 2015 20:50:10 GMT -5 Nonny said:

Setting up for further proof that Neville is a true Griffindor!

Absolutely. Honestly, I've always loved Neville more than Harry and thought Neville was the braver one. Harry had bravery thrust upon him; Neville chose bravery. 

Yep, reinforcing the message of we are defined by our choices, Harry is brave and does what he has to BUT he does it because he has to* to Neville steps up because he chooses to.

Also Dumbledore's point that Voldy chose his enemy and he chose Harry despite his muggle blood when the prophecy could apply to either of them and little bits like this show that Neville could've done it as well. 

*not that I don't think Harry wouldn't have stepped up if the roles were reversed but he doesn't have much choice.

[revjen]

Jun 2, 2015 11:39:05 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

May 31, 2015 21:12:09 GMT -5 katfco said:

Absolutely. Honestly, I've always loved Neville more than Harry and thought Neville was the braver one. Harry had bravery thrust upon him; Neville chose bravery. 

Yep, reinforcing the message of we are defined by our choices, Harry is brave and does what he has to BUT he does it because he has to* to Neville steps up because he chooses to.

Also Dumbledore's point that Voldy chose his enemy and he chose Harry despite his muggle blood when the prophecy could apply to either of them and little bits like this show that Neville could've done it as well. 

*not that I don't think Harry wouldn't have stepped up if the roles were reversed but he doesn't have much choice.

I think it also demonstrates that there are different types of bravery. You can't paint them with broad strokes. It takes one type of person to be brave because they have no other choice (Harry). It takes another to choose to be brave when you're scared and unsure (neville).

They both get there in the end but their journeys are way different.

[leeba25]

I'm late to this, but I'm doing a HP re-read that sort of coincides with the timing of this one, so I hope to jump in earlier on the next one.

The first time I read these books, this one was my least favorite. Between Harry's angst and Umbridge being Umbridge, it was just too frustrating. On re-reads though (and this isn't my first time re-reading them), I think this may be one of my favorites. Here's why:

I love how Harry, despite being frustrated and fed up, continues to fight the fight. He could have easily - as a teenager - gone the other direction and just said, "eh, eff it, I'm going to just go with the flow," but he doesn't. I also love the relationship that he & Sirius are trying to forge. It's fumbling and at times awkward, but god damn they need each other. Of course the loss is heartbreaking, because now Harry has no family in his life to lean on.

I also love the Umbridge stuff. I love how awful she is, and how much I hate her. I mean, she was straight up evil! The way she took joy in torturing kids is just amazingly terrible. But ... GO HERMIONE!! The way they got her to play right into how they thought she would? It was fantastic.

The Department of Mysteries stuff at the end was just amazing. Harry has fought Voldemort before - and even faced him in his (V's) own body in the graveyard at the end of Goblet of Fire. But here - in this one - shit got real.

I am also always amazed at how some of these grown ups like to openly bully kids, even before their Death Eater status is officially acknowledged. Like when Lucius Malfoy runs into Harry & the Weasleys in the bookstore in (I think) book 4, and later Narcissa telling off Hermione, Harry, and Ron, even threatening them and calling them names, in the beginning of book 6 in the robes store.