So DH and I have been bickering a lot lately. Things are a bit stressful (DH's grandfather passed away earlier this week). (I swear this is kind of mm related--btw I'm 24, he's 28)
Most of our fights are dumb and stem from the stress. However, there is one that has been recurring (had another blow out last night) and I am concerned over how to resolve it.
DH and I want to eventually (key word) live abroad, somewhere where he can utilize his medical degree and I can still have a career. DH is nearly fluent in Spanish and French, and intermediate in Danish and Creole, and he's trying to learn German right now. Me...I'm taking beginner French lessons. We really like Montreal and Denmark (it'd be easier to go to Montreal though). We're vaguely toying with Sweden or Germany as well (dream country would be France, but it'd be near impossible for DH to practice there).
Anyway, DH would love to move RIGHTNOW. However he is in med school so we've been making rough future plans (he's in his third year). Our original thoughts centered around moving when he finishes his 4-7 years of residency here. That would give us time to pay down our student loans, save up money, and have me build some sort of transferable career.
However, now he wants to do a year of residency here and then transfer abroad for the rest. I told him this won't work and he tells me I'm negative and trying to ruin his dreams. -insert eye roll- He is accusing me of being negative and not really on board with moving abroad when I think I'm being realistic while he has his head in the sand.
Sure, moving in two years sounds fun. However, I'm working an entry level pseudo-paralegal job not sure what path I will take, am trying to pay down 90k in student loans, and he will have at least 200k in student loans when he graduates.
Residents make around 45 to 50k in our area, and I sure as heck know they make less abroad. It's hard enough to find jobs here, I can't imagine how difficult it would be abroad as a foreigner for myself, especially in this economy. I know that we wouldn't be able to pay our combined loans without us both working, and I have no doubt that I'd be jobless abroad, potentially for a long time.
I'm trying to come up with a real solid, realistic game plan for this. In a dream world, I'd have us pay off our student loans in the next 10ish years so we have no debt, and have enough money saved up both to take some time off to travel for maybe 3 to 6 months (I'd love to go to Israel, Chile, Peru, and Bali), and move to wherever we choose.
Ideally I will move up into a leadership position of some sort in my firm since my firm has locations all over the world--so a possibility of a transfer. Or I can rack up enough skills to land another job, maybe with another American company.
Plus, at some point I'd like to think about having kids in all this (again more $$$).
What are other things related to this I need to think about/have a plan for? I know DH sees how unrealistic his plan is but he thinks "we'd make it work". That's not good enough.
I guess this is a bit of a vent too. I feel like he doesn't take our massive debt seriously. I'm hoping that in the next few months when things calm down I can get him to seriously sit down and look at the tough facts with me so we can get a real plan in place.
I'd be concerned about his finishing his residency abroad. Would that affect his ability to get a job in the States when you come back?
He needs to research that.
He needs to research actual salaries too. What would the reality be?
And give him the numbers - what your monthly bills are/will be w/ the SL's. Based on his reserach on what his salary would be - do the numbers add up? If they don't, what does HE see as possible solutions?
TEll him you'll be more willing to consider this if he can give you concrete data. Not just "we'll make it work".
And be fair - do your own research on your job prospects. You say you'd expect to not be working, but is that really the case? You may be lower level now, but if you moved to a city where your firm is located, could you still possibly transfer? You don't have to be higher up for this to happen.
Good points--he's researched a lot on if/how he can get a job, and various salaries (he would be making quite a bit less as a doctor abroad than he would be here), but no number crunching. That would be a definite start to this conversation I think.
From what I've read, my best shot would be through an American company, as locals get first dibs on a job (which I think is fair). I guess I'm still not sure exactly what I'm going to move up into, so a 2 year deadline to figure it out stresses me out. When we moved out here I worked at a liquor store part time for almost a year before I landed a full time job. Our finances were pay check to pay check, and I was in a bad place mentally/emotionally through it. I'm afraid of being naive about the job market again and being right back there.
I am hoping to transfer within my firm. Unfortunately, that's not a guarantee so I want to pad my resume` more I think.
I don't see any harm in him looking into his options and if he applies you looking for work in that area. I'm sure areas in the U.S. vary greatly in how easy it is to find a job. I know where I live in Canada a family doctor (not sure what his residency is) would make more than $50K and you could probably find a job fairly easily IF you're here on the right visa.
Which does lead to the next problem - you'll both need work visas and those can take time to process.
But neither of you sounds realistic as you have no actual numbers or facts behind your ideas. Narrow down where you'd like to go and start looking into it seriously before you finalize your timeline.
Post by emilyinchile on Aug 16, 2012 11:06:42 GMT -5
I don't think this is a conversation worth having until you decide on one or two top locations. You need to consider salaries, of course, but also COL, general job opportunities, ease of actually getting visas, etc. and that's just way too much information to calculate even for the 4 places you mentioned, much less any others you're thinking of.
I'd try to focus the conversation on needing to make a decision based on facts - if he wants to move, it's on him to present his case for how it will work out.
But neither of you sounds realistic as you have no actual numbers or facts behind your ideas. Narrow down where you'd like to go and start looking into it seriously before you finalize your timeline.
I agree. I think you both would be best served by researching some things and being realistic.
Has your DH really ever had to make a major life decision and "make it work?" Because making something work is a lot easier said than done. It feels all nice and romantic until you can't pay your rent and you're living on beans.
Post by dulcemariamar on Aug 16, 2012 11:12:30 GMT -5
I would post this on International Living. If I remember correctly, there is a girl in Sweden who is in med school.
Does he want to work abroad when he is done with med school or does he want to transfer over to another school?
If he already has his degree or wants to wait, then the biggest hurdle will be getting a VISA: The easiest way as you said is to get a transfer from an American company. However, at least in Spain it is really difficult for the government to recognize your degree. It took me over a year and lots of paperwork just to get them to recognize my degree. I know people who studied law or medicine or had to wait years and during that time they couldn't practice.
If he wants to finish his studies, then it probably wont be difficult to get a student visa. However, I dont know if you can come over on his visa. In addition, if he gets his degree abroad, will he be able to practice in the States?
and being a trailing spouse is a completely different topic. It can be really hard.
Post by vanillacourage on Aug 16, 2012 11:14:01 GMT -5
I would research a lot more before getting far enough to fight about it. And I would try to pin down when you do plan to have kids if you think that will have much of an impact on it (i.e. you want to be back in the US by the time the kid is X years old). From your DH's view, it would suck to complete residency and finally be ready to move, and then put it on hold again for kids. At that point it really would feel like giving up on a dream.
Post by dulcemariamar on Aug 16, 2012 11:17:22 GMT -5
Plus, if you are really worried about paying off students loans, moving overseas is not going to make it better.
Beside the fact that it is expensive to move, the salaries (at least in a lot of places in the EU) are a lot lower than in the States.
I remember there was one girl on the IL board who was complaining that it was hard living in Holland with American student loans. Since most people outside of the States start with little or no debt, they will have "fun" money at the end of the month.
I think it really boils down to what ECB said. There is a lot of theorizing going on (location, salary, debts, job possibilities) and until you nail down some concrete details, it's pointless to have the argument. It's either impossible, feasible or easily doable. No idea which until you narrow things down.
Post by explorer2001 on Aug 16, 2012 11:20:47 GMT -5
Have you talked to Blessed? You might want to page her/pm her. Her h is a teacher. She's finishing med school. They just moved to South Africa. She'd like be a great resource.
I would finish my residency here. Living abroad sounds fabulous but if he wants to come back he may have to complete a residency all over again. And i am sure he knows that. Why right now? Is there something else going on with him or your relationship?
I would finish my residency here. Living abroad sounds fabulous but if he wants to come back he may have to complete a residency all over again. And i am sure he knows that.
I think she needs to make sure he knows that - and if he doesn't, he needs to find out. He's done SOME research into jobs - but has he found out that if he completes his residency overseas (if he's even allowed to?), will that "count" or will he have to do it again when he comes back?
That's the problem with all this - he's mad you're killing his dream, but that's all it is - dreams and talk. I get the sense that he hasn't really thought this out entirely and doesn't have actual FACTS.
All good points. This is kind of what I wanted to get at with him, really hammer out the details. I've read a lot of differing things on money, and we would both definitely be bringing in a lot less money than we would be here.
We're actually planning on doing a permanent move abroad--as in raising our kids wherever and such. Which is sort of why I want more time here to hammer things out, because once we move, we're planning on staying.
I am very, very concerned about my student loans (and his of course). If we moved without us both being employed and with nearly 300k in debt to pay off, when would we have kids? Would we ever buy a house?
I guess we have different priorities right now. He wants concrete plans to move asap. He'd ideally graduate here, complete a year of residency, then finish up residency abroad. I am concerned with:
-Paying off my loans -Saving up an emergency fund -Saving up a seperate moving fund -Having an additional savings for future child/ren since kids are expensive -Making a career for myself (possibly going back to school?)
I know it'll take awhile anyway to get the details figured out for visas, work, etc. I need to figure out my own career options.
This brings up another fight we've had. I moved here right after graduating college for his schooling, which limited where I could apply for jobs/career opportunities I was interested in pursuing. I also can't really make any major decisions because he could end up anywhere in the country for residency. Up until this year I was just trying to find a job that paid more than $10 an hour. Now that I have a good job, I feel stable and safe to explore how to proceed career-wise. DH is irritated and thinks I should have this figured out and he doesn't want to wait on me.
Which I don't think is fair, since we've been basing all our decisions off his medical career. I've been counting on his residency years as being my time to maybe get additional schooling or just putting some hard work into advancing in my firm (again, I'm using these last two years of his schooling to figure this out). The reality is that even though my firm is doing well, they're trying to cut costs. Almost all new staff hires are going to be part-time positions. I think since I'm already here I could still advance up, but its not going to be as simple as DH seems to think. I can't just ask for a transfer or anything--there has to be an actual opening to transfer into, and I can't just be promoted--there has to be an opening.
Writing this out, even though I want to move abroad for sure, I just don't think I would be ready or even wanting to in 2 years. I guess this makes me a bit selfish.
This brings up another fight we've had. I moved here right after graduating college for his schooling, which limited where I could apply for jobs/career opportunities I was interested in pursuing. I also can't really make any major decisions because he could end up anywhere in the country for residency. Up until this year I was just trying to find a job that paid more than $10 an hour. Now that I have a good job, I feel stable and safe to explore how to proceed career-wise. DH is irritated and thinks I should have this figured out and he doesn't want to wait on me.
I don't even know what to say to this. This paints your Dh to be REALLY self-centered and selfish. It's all about his job and his dreams. Yours be damned.
I would post this on International Living. If I remember correctly, there is a girl in Sweden who is in med school.
Does he want to work abroad when he is done with med school or does he want to transfer over to another school?
If he already has his degree or wants to wait, then the biggest hurdle will be getting a VISA: The easiest way as you said is to get a transfer from an American company. However, at least in Spain it is really difficult for the government to recognize your degree. It took me over a year and lots of paperwork just to get them to recognize my degree. I know people who studied law or medicine or had to wait years and during that time they couldn't practice.
If he wants to finish his studies, then it probably wont be difficult to get a student visa. However, I dont know if you can come over on his visa. In addition, if he gets his degree abroad, will he be able to practice in the States?
and being a trailing spouse is a completely different topic. It can be really hard.
Yeah she won't be able to come over here on his visa. I believe she can after he has been working here for 1 year, it is called the family reunification visa.
DH and I are living here in Spain (both Americans), he was transfered from an American company. We do have different visas as spouses don't automatically get a visa if their spouse is working here. I have a non-lucrative visa, which I am unable to work or study. I had to provide my own health insurance (which is private provided by DH's company), he had to make at least $75k and a bunch of other rules in order to get one.
In the next few weeks we are moving to Amsterdam where the visa rules are more relaxed. I will automatically get a work visa since DH is getting one, I think it is called "highly skilled migrant worker".
If this is something your DH really wants I think he needs to do some more leg work. As a planner I would not be okay with "we will make it work". He needs to come to you with a realistic plan (with real data) and then you can make decision as a couple.
Post by dulcemariamar on Aug 16, 2012 11:54:58 GMT -5
Well, it seems that you already have experience as a trailing spouse. I agree with the PP, your DH should be way more understanding about how hard it is to start a career when your life is based on his schooling.
300K in loans?? Please, please think about this plan. Perhaps, I am wrong but where could you go and live with this much debt?
In Canada? I am not sure about their salaries there but maybe you want to pay some of it off before you move.
This brings up another fight we've had. I moved here right after graduating college for his schooling, which limited where I could apply for jobs/career opportunities I was interested in pursuing. I also can't really make any major decisions because he could end up anywhere in the country for residency. Up until this year I was just trying to find a job that paid more than $10 an hour. Now that I have a good job, I feel stable and safe to explore how to proceed career-wise. DH is irritated and thinks I should have this figured out and he doesn't want to wait on me.
I don't even know what to say to this. This paints your Dh to be REALLY self-centered and selfish. It's all about his job and his dreams. Yours be damned.
He's married. It's not all about him anymore.
Yeah I would be pissed. He needs to be supportive of your career, feelings, fears, etc.
He sounds really selfish, but also like someone who's just a dreamer. I can't tell from what you say how serious he is about his plans. I'm wondering if he's just trying to play "wouldn't it be cool if we did XYZ?" and you're taking it as "We're moving to Spain tomorrow! Figure it out!"
I ask because my DH is a little like that. "We should take a trip to Bali!" or "We should buy a motorcycle" (never mind that we can't afford to go to Bali and neither of us has ever even ridden a motorcycle.) When we first married, these ideas would put me into a mini-panic because I took them as much more serious than they were and he interpreted my "but how are we going to do this??!??" as dream-crushing.
In 10 years, my DH has never once followed through on any of these crazy ideas---they're just his way of imagining "what if." He's too responsible to ultimately do something so crazy.
I think what I'd do when he brings these things up again is to talk with him about all of the fun stuff about moving. THEN, if he gets more serious, tell him, "Ok. I'm on board. I did the math and we need to earn at least $X/month in order to make this work. Why don't you start doing some of the legwork and just let me know how I can help." Then, nothing. Just silence. Repeat the above as necessary.
grosnl19--Hm, I haven't looked into my own visa situation with any of these places. I think I'm designating this weekend as a weekend to look into this. Because I am not okay with not working. I don't have a housewife bone in my body. I would have to be able to work.
ECB--I am hoping he was just being an ass when he said that last night since his grandpa just died. He gets a pass from me this time from me.
But this economy sucks, and when I graduated two years ago it was so hard. I have my current job through pure luck. I've been seeing his school as his time, and when he graduates it'll be my turn to straighten out my job prospects. He seemed to be on board with that up until now.
He's been meeting a ton of friends from abroad lately and I think he's all wound up and excited about the future. Which is great, but we need to be realistic. I think when we were discussing it yesterday the realty of it all disappointed him big time (thus the whole crushing of hopes and dreams and such), and he was already upset.
I'll start doing some number crunching, and once I get some info together I'll revisit it with him I think.
Tell your husband to start fighting fairly. He knows you are not "trying to ruin his dreams" and he sounds like a brat trying to use that card.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I think your plan sounds reasonable and I would would not feel comfortable following my SO abroad with no job lined up and no way to pay off my debts. I hope you guys are able to work something out that makes you both happy.
Post by kellbell191 on Aug 16, 2012 12:13:53 GMT -5
On your first issue I agree with the others that you all need to sit down and determine long term financial goals together, then research the living abroad more in depth and come up with a feasible scenario. It sounds like you all are fighting b.c. its him saying "I want to do this" you saying "I don't think that's reasonable" and neither of you fully presenting facts or scenarios so there is no room to negotiate.
I do find fault with the way your DH is handling your career goals. DH is in a lot of respects the trailing spouse. He left a fairly prestigious gig in his field to follow me for law school and then when I had issues finding a job compromised on his career (he is in a very specific industry, we don't live in a great location for it). I'm in the field I want now but definitely see jobs come up that seem like amazing opportunities that I do not apply for because this is our compromise. Dragging him around wherever I feel like going for whatever job next and not considering his career needs would be unfair and make him deeply unhappy. It sounds like your DH is having a hard time finding that balance. Seeing as he's in a competitive program probably surrounded by competitive people, I don't think that's too surprising, but it also doesn't make it fair to you. DH still isn't 100% sure what he wants to do long term, but we've discussed a lot how to balance careers and if something he feels he must do comes along, he knows I will follow him and back him up 100%.
I think some of the issues you may be having are based on your age. Its normal in your mid twenties to be figuring out what the hell you want to do. You need to give each other room to grow as individuals too.
I hate to say it, but if you guys have 300k in loans (approximately) it is probably going to take more than 10 years to pay them off, especially if you're in a low level job for the next few years. My (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the medical profession is that residents are not paid much anywhere and he won't be making "good" money until after he's done with ALL schooling, regardless of where he lives. So it sounds to me like it is going to be several years before you can make any significant dent in the loans regardless of where you live.
With that said, if you want to spend your life and raise your kids abroad, I agree with your DH that you can't wait until everything is paid off and perfect, or you'll be waiting a very long time. I don't think it needs to be 2 years from now that you move ,though. I'd probably want him to complete residency here and then move, even if you still have loans. I assume you could do an extended or income based repayment plan right?
I also think planning ahead is great, but would try to avoid fighting too much about an unknown future. On a much smaller scale DH and have had similarly themed fights - where we want to move in a few years - and ultimately it is probably going to come down to where we can find decent jobs. Without knowing if you can even be hired somewhere, it is hard to know if you can realistically move there. It is frustrating not to "know" what is coming next, but some things aren't possible to completely plan for and you're wasting the present if you're frequently fighting about something that may never even happen.
Yeah the economy here in Spain is much worst than the US and I don't see it getting better in the next few years...I fear we are the next Greece. I might cross Spain off of your list...
I know the Netherlands and the Scandanavian countries are doing pretty well, as well as, Germay. I am not sure about France, you can ask Anna about that.
This is a tough situation and I have no useful frame of reference to really advise you, but I think both your plans are a bit unrealistic. Your plan involves staying here for 10 years to pay down debt and save enough to travel and then move. Where do you fit kids into that picture? Have you thought about when you want to have the kids? Because if you have them before the 10 years, it will be hard to pick up and move (I think, I don't have kids, but I feel like it is much easier to make that kind of a move before you have to think about things like daycare, schooling, being near family, etc, in regards to having kids). If you plan to wait for kids until after 10 years, you'll be 34 when you start thinking about. But if you just moved, will you want to start trying to have kids right away in a completely new country?
Maybe it is just because i have kids on the mind now (and I'm 33), but it seems like it would be much easier to move in your 20s than 30s. Not necessarily in 2 years, but maybe 5?
I agree that your H really needs to have an actual plan in place. Maybe your discussions would be more productive if instead of telling him why you don't think his plan will work, just ask for specifics of HOW he thinks it will work. Make him do the research and prove to you that you guys can do it. Then he'll either figure out how to make it work or he'll come the same conclusion you already have when he actually runs the numbers. He'll believe it if he figures it out himself vs. you being the "dream killer" in his mind.
I think it's really easy for him to ponder the possibilities while he knows that you will hammer out the details. It probably makes HIM angry that he can't do what he wants when he wants to - and you are making yourself WAY too easy a target for his frustrations.
This kind of reminds me of what's going on between my mom and dad. My uncle is quite ill and in nursing care. He has a very bad knee that gives him so much pain, that he can't do much of anything and refuses rehad. My dad's solution is an above-the-knee ampulation. My mother has been arguing with dad that its a horrible idea and in his frustration, my dad's been lashing out at my mother. I finally told my mom "Look, the nursing home won't even give him an overnight asprin, they are not going to do surgery just because dad has this bright idea. Stop making yourslef a target of his frustrations that he can't get his brother well. If he wants to suggest amputaltion LET HIM. Its a LONG process that will never happend - and you don't have to throw cold water on it."
I'm not saying that it will never happen, but if he thinks that a second year residency "somewhere" is a possibility - let him take the steps to get there. If in 2 years, the only residency he can get is somewhere he doesn't want to go or you you can't work or you both cvan't afford, then THAT will answer THAT. Just be supportive throughout the process and make a deal that he'll also keep his options open with a residency in the US.
Also - do you have grandparents with past citizenship in any of these countries - or any countries in the EU? If so, you may be able to apply for and get a EU passort which will greatly increase your options for employment.
I suppose paying off ALL our loans could be considered unrealistic. Perhaps just my debt? I'm hoping with DH's settlement to knock out a decent portion this year, but I won't find that out until next month. DH doesn't have anyone cosigned on his loans, but my dad is cosigned on all of mine, so if anything ever happened to me he'd be picking up the tab which is also making me want to pay them off asap. I realllly hate loans. Never again!
And yes, I've been trying to figure out when the kid(s) will fit in. We both definitely want them at some point. Good point about not uprooting them around.
and livinitup--that is a view point I had not thought of. Good example about becoming a target.
I guess I'm a bit jaded. I was raised with the whole "do good in school, take out loans, go to college, get an awesome job, and pay them off no problem" thing. A bit of a wakeup call after graduation--most of my friends went into Americorps to delay their loans and figure out what to do. And a bunch of them are now going to law school (some are in grad school). Yikes.
I didn't expect to be working in a liquor store for so long, but I was grateful to have even that. I was unemployed for 4 months before I finally got that (nobody would hire me, saw me as a flight risk, and they were sort of right).
I have a pretty bleak viewpoint right now about general employment, the "American Dream", dream jobs, etc. I do feel amazingly lucky for my current job for sure, but I'm pretty skeptical of any plan that isn't thought out to the t. Heck, there's an older couple we hang out with (they're in their 50s) and when we moved into our new apartment they asked very seriously if we considered buying a home. Yeah, I make 40k a year, DH is in school, and we have massive debt. Buying a house sounds like a wonderful idea (I'm surrounded by people suggesting such things to us).
Okay, maybe I am a touch negative. I still maintain its rooted in being a realist though.
I do rather like the name Dream Crusher though. Pity I already have a screen name.
what field does he want to go into? I'm assuming that with your 4-7 yrs that he's still undecided. I think he needs to make a decision on that first.
Like spenji mentioned, I don't think he'd be able to fully work in US hospitals with a foreign residency. He could always do a fellowship abroad (mr. Insom and some of his fellow residents did that) during residency.
Oh, I'm sorry Soleil! You sound overwhelmed by your loans and a bit depressed about your realistic options for the future. People accuse me of being a pessimist, and I always counter that I'm a realist. The truth is, life is hard and I'm a planner, so I tend to see all the things that can go wrong or all the road blocks that are in the way of getting where I want to be. Lucky for me H is more of an optimist and sometimes he can help me see that things aren't hopeless. You will get where you want to go, it just takes time. It sounds like you are early in your career, and your hard work will pay off. You are just starting out!
The student loan debt is definitely tough to deal with. I know it doesn't help much, but a lot of people are in your position. Take solace in not being alone?
Anyway, I hope a little pep talk will help you see the brighter side. I think everyone gave great advice for changing how you interact with H, hopefully that will help with the bickering. I know my H and I sometimes get into these types of patterns and sometimes just having a heart to heart where I explain to him all my fears helps him understand why I'm scared and negative. He also tends to look at things individually where I'm more of a big picture person. Meaning, he sees things a little bit at a time vs. me adding up all our debts and obligations and thinking about how we'll pay for daycare, mortgage, retirement, etc, etc. When I show him all that he tends to understand better and kind of say "oh yeah, I wasn't thinking about all those things..." or whatever. Does that make sense? Communication is key and hopefully you guys can get on the same page.
insomniac--he is leaning heavily toward obgyn, although he's more interested in the obstetrics aspect. He had an amazing clinical rotation in it and its his first choice at the moment (although he still has many rotations yet to go through). He's also looking at internal medicine seriously.
In a previous post I mentioned he got hit by a car a few years ago--the surgeon that operated on his shoulder offered to let him have a rotation with him next Spring. That's a pretty awesome rotation for a 3rd year student to get, so I'm thinking that working that may sway him into looking at surgery.
noodleoo-thanks for the encouragement! I feel extremely unstable financially and I've been obsessively drafting excel documents of our monthly budget and aggressively planning to regain control. I guess I'm a bit of a debbie downer, so I am going to try to reel that in for DH's sake have a more balance perspective on things.