Moms of 5-6yos - defiance, testing limits, etc.

[whereintheworld]

Using Willis Jackson' post as a jumping point here.

My 5.5yo son has always been spirited and high-maintenance. In the last 1-2 years we were able to diagnose a fairly high level of anxiety in him (H and I both struggle with anxiety and depression so this wasn’t completely out of the blue). Took him to a child psychologist where he did weekly play therapy for 8 months to tackle some of his specific anxieties. We didn’t see a ton of progress and we are going to try a second care provider.

I am wondering if he has a bit of ADHD, maybe some ODD, because his impulse control is low and he seems to always want negative attention. If he is one-on-one with an adult he acts a bit better, but still constantly (AND I MEAN CONSTANTLY) pushes the boundaries even when he knows the expectations. He is a bright kid and can be so sweet with his brothers but his behaviour often leaves me completely exasperated. He picks a fight so often and will get in to fights with us about the most mundane things; semantics, etc. If I said the sky is blue he would find a way to fight it.

He started full day kindergarten this year and the first semester was fantastic, his teacher said he was so polite, respectful and always followed the rules. Then the second semester his behaviour at school went downhill and he has been disruptive. When he’s anxious he often goes in to ‘class clown mode’ as we call it, where he does anything for a laugh and this usually involves completely ignoring authority.

I am wondering how much of this is “normal” for 5.5yo boys and how much might be something bigger going on. He doesn’t have the inattention of ADHD but I wonder about his impulse control. He doesn’t really care about consequences. He does really well with positive praise so we lay it on thick when he makes good choices and we do behaviour/reward charts for the good stuff but man does he like to just push, push, push to see what he can get away with. He gets a fair bit of one-on-one time with H and me but we are both working parents outside of the home, with commutes, and 2 other small kids, so there’s only so much of us to go around.

[jeaniebueller]

A lot of that sounds normal 6 year old behavior. I think that they must go through crazy developmental changes right now, because everyone I know with 6 year olds says the same thing. DS has a lot of boundary testing, not listening, doing things that he *knows* he shouldn't, etc. same with talking back, wanting to get the last word on EVERYTHING. Did his teacher have any input about his acting out at school or seem like it was abnormal?

[whereintheworld]

Jun 23, 2015 13:09:37 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

A lot of that sounds normal 6 year old behavior. I think that they must go through crazy developmental changes right now, because everyone I know with 6 year olds says the same thing. DS has a lot of boundary testing, not listening, doing things that he *knows* he shouldn't, etc. same with talking back, wanting to get the last word on EVERYTHING. Did his teacher have any input about his acting out at school or seem like it was abnormal?

Her biggest concern was that he went from such perfect behavior for September-December then this huge decline. She did say his behavior was quite typical of the other boys in the class, but it was strange that he had such a positive beginning of the year and was becoming increasingly disruptive.

I think I might be spoiled since my 3.5yo is kind of a unicorn child that is go-with-the-flow, respectful of boundaries, a joy to be around - it makes the 5.5yo seem SO much more difficult in comparison.  I'd say they're on the same maturity level, if not with the 3.5yo a bit more mature. 

[jeaniebueller]

I wonder how much of that has to do with him getting more comfortable and safe in the school environment, so he started acting out more. not that its an excuse for poor behavior.

[whereintheworld]

Jun 23, 2015 13:19:26 GMT -5 sxia said:

I wish I had an answer. My son had huge issues, but has NEVER NEVER been the quiet polite one.
Never.
He's either extremely shy and wants to be with mom, or he's jumping on the other kids, hugging, grabbing, cutely touching babies on the nose, touch, touch, touch, no boundaries, etc.

I took him to a doctor who specialized in ADHD and he said, "He has ADHD tendencies, but he may grow out of that. Thanks, come again."

Yesss - sounds like my son! NO sense of personal space and appropriate boundaries. He is really scared of the water so with swimming lessons he gets anxious and therefore completely insane - things like jumping on his teachers back, not listening (which is INSANELY unsafe in the water) and unzipping his teachers wet suit. We pulled him from group lessons and are going to try private lessons. Fingers crossed it's better.

Do you ever get jealous of other peoples kids that seem to listen/react to mom and dad being stern, or to a warning to stop doing something? I know people judge his behavior and have ideas on what we should do differently but unless you live with him you can't understand how difficult it is to manage him.

[whereintheworld]

Jun 23, 2015 13:22:42 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

I wonder how much of that has to do with him getting more comfortable and safe in the school environment, so he started acting out more. not that its an excuse for poor behavior.

Totally, it feels like the first semester was a honeymoon phase. When we went for a parent-teacher conference in November the teacher said such glowing things and we were like 'HUH?! We talking about the same kids?!" since we have such struggles with him at home. She said he hadn't displayed that kind of behavior at all at school, then when she got in touch a few weeks ago she said she was seeing exactly what we had described.  I was hopeful when we met in November that he was doing so well at school because I thought maybe he just acts out at home but is respectful and good at school - but now it sounds like it's just a bit of a mess everywhere. He requires a lot of redirection which feels weird for a 5.5yo.

[juliette21]

He sounds a lot like my DS1, who is 5.5 (will turn 6 in August). He also had a great beginning to K, but things started to fall apart in January, and got very bad in February until we took him to a child psychiatrist.

Ultimately, he did get diagnosed with ADHD, but we had suspected he had it for some time. We put off going to a child psych because we knew he'd get that diagnosis. We also did some counseling and work with a therapist for about 8 months before finally seeking the psych.

Just to clarify on a comment you made upthread, ADHD is the umbrella term. Not all children have the inattentive type. Some just have the hyperactive/impulsive type. My son was diagnosed with both, as he does have a hard time paying attention to tasks that are boring or hard for him. But it's not out of the norm for a child to just have the hyperactive/impulsive behaviors.

I would say keep your eye on him, and make sure things don't fall completely apart at school. Instead of being the class clown, my DS1 was having meltdowns and disrupting the class to the point he had to be removed. So he was a little more intense LOL. But ultimately, we made the decision to explore the issue further when it got this bad. Until then, we were fine making modifications at home and monitoring his behavior. My son's child psych, pedi, and DH and I all agree that school is #1. A child can have ADHD behaviors, but as long as they can make it through the school day, learn what they need to, and succeed then you don't necessarily have to intervene.

GL and I hope things get better for you.

[whereintheworld]

Jun 23, 2015 13:44:58 GMT -5 juliette21 said:

He sounds a lot like my DS1, who is 5.5 (will turn 6 in August). He also had a great beginning to K, but things started to fall apart in January, and got very bad in February until we took him to a child psychiatrist.

Ultimately, he did get diagnosed with ADHD, but we had suspected he had it for some time. We put off going to a child psych because we knew he'd get that diagnosis. We also did some counseling and work with a therapist for about 8 months before finally seeking the psych.

Just to clarify on a comment you made upthread, ADHD is the umbrella term. Not all children have the inattentive type. Some just have the hyperactive/impulsive type. My son was diagnosed with both, as he does have a hard time paying attention to tasks that are boring or hard for him. But it's not out of the norm for a child to just have the hyperactive/impulsive behaviors.

I would say keep your eye on him, and make sure things don't fall completely apart at school. Instead of being the class clown, my DS1 was having meltdowns and disrupting the class to the point he had to be removed. So he was a little more intense LOL. But ultimately, we made the decision to explore the issue further when it got this bad. Until then, we were fine making modifications at home and monitoring his behavior. My son's child psych, pedi, and DH and I all agree that school is #1. A child can have ADHD behaviors, but as long as they can make it through the school day, learn what they need to, and succeed then you don't necessarily have to intervene.

GL and I hope things get better for you.

Thank you so much for your insight, it sounds like they're really similar kids!

Can I ask what kind of management strategy with your sons ADHD? Is he on medication?  How are things going with him now that you have a diagnosis?

[juliette21]

Oh, also anxiety and ADHD often go hand in hand. My DS1 also displayed some anxious behaviors, to the point the psych wasn't sure at the first meeting when taking DS1's history if he had ADHD or anxiety. The psych ultimately diagnosed him with ADHD, but that was after getting assessments from me, DH, and 2 teachers from his school, as well as doing an hour+ play-based session with DS1 in his office. 

The psych said a lot of kids with ADHD appear to also have anxiety, but it's really because the ADHD makes them feel uncomfortable/not know how to control themselves in certain situations. Since starting medication the anxious behaviors (along with ODD) have gone away.

[whereintheworld]

Jun 23, 2015 13:53:09 GMT -5 juliette21 said:

Oh, also anxiety and ADHD often go hand in hand. My DS1 also displayed some anxious behaviors, to the point the psych wasn't sure at the first meeting when taking DS1's history if he had ADHD or anxiety. The psych ultimately diagnosed him with ADHD, but that was after getting assessments from me, DH, and 2 teachers from his school, as well as doing an hour+ play-based session with DS1 in his office. 

The psych said a lot of kids with ADHD appear to also have anxiety, but it's really because the ADHD makes them feel uncomfortable/not know how to control themselves in certain situations. Since starting medication the anxious behaviors (along with ODD) have gone away.

That is SO encouraging that you've seen the anxiety and ODD going away since starting medication. I am really hopeful that we can get there.

[juliette21]

Jun 23, 2015 13:51:22 GMT -5 whereintheworld said:

Jun 23, 2015 13:44:58 GMT -5 juliette21 said:

He sounds a lot like my DS1, who is 5.5 (will turn 6 in August). He also had a great beginning to K, but things started to fall apart in January, and got very bad in February until we took him to a child psychiatrist.

Ultimately, he did get diagnosed with ADHD, but we had suspected he had it for some time. We put off going to a child psych because we knew he'd get that diagnosis. We also did some counseling and work with a therapist for about 8 months before finally seeking the psych.

Just to clarify on a comment you made upthread, ADHD is the umbrella term. Not all children have the inattentive type. Some just have the hyperactive/impulsive type. My son was diagnosed with both, as he does have a hard time paying attention to tasks that are boring or hard for him. But it's not out of the norm for a child to just have the hyperactive/impulsive behaviors.

I would say keep your eye on him, and make sure things don't fall completely apart at school. Instead of being the class clown, my DS1 was having meltdowns and disrupting the class to the point he had to be removed. So he was a little more intense LOL. But ultimately, we made the decision to explore the issue further when it got this bad. Until then, we were fine making modifications at home and monitoring his behavior. My son's child psych, pedi, and DH and I all agree that school is #1. A child can have ADHD behaviors, but as long as they can make it through the school day, learn what they need to, and succeed then you don't necessarily have to intervene.

GL and I hope things get better for you.

Thank you so much for your insight, it sounds like they're really similar kids!

Can I ask what kind of management strategy with your sons ADHD? Is he on medication?  How are things going with him now that you have a diagnosis?

You're very welcome, I'm glad to help! They do sound like very similar kids, I feel for you LOL.

We ultimately decided to do medication because of the explosive side of his temperament with the ADHD. He was doing very badly in school, getting taken out of the classroom multiple times a week which meant he was losing instruction time. He wasn't making any friends because the other kids were scared of him. It was really awful, we felt so hopeless and lost from Feb-May of this year.

I originally didn't want to do medication at such a young age, but we had really tried to many behavior modification strategies but DS1 was just so unpredictable we had no idea if i would work one day or not. The school had considerably less patience than us and really I don't blame them. They are responsible for teaching 20 other kids, and my son was so disruptive they couldn't get through their lessons.

DS1 is taking a 20 mg dose of metadate CD, which is the generic of Ritalin. The doc said Ritalin is the most well-tolerated med for young kids, so we started him on that in early May. Honestly, the difference has been night and day. We went from getting multiple calls a week to pick him up from school and/or his after-school program, to none. He has a sticker chart each day that he earns stickers for making it through each period in his day, and he gets all of his stickers almost every day now. He is so happy and calm, and it seems like his self-esteem has also gone up. He has his moments like every other kid, but he can turn it around a lot faster now and not let it ruin the rest of his day.

I don't want to write a novel in case you don't want to read a ton of detail, but I'd be happy to share more if you're interested.  

[Queen Mamadala]

Jun 23, 2015 13:44:58 GMT -5 juliette21 said:

He sounds a lot like my DS1, who is 5.5 (will turn 6 in August). He also had a great beginning to K, but things started to fall apart in January, and got very bad in February until we took him to a child psychiatrist.

Ultimately, he did get diagnosed with ADHD, but we had suspected he had it for some time. We put off going to a child psych because we knew he'd get that diagnosis. We also did some counseling and work with a therapist for about 8 months before finally seeking the psych.

Just to clarify on a comment you made upthread, ADHD is the umbrella term. Not all children have the inattentive type. Some just have the hyperactive/impulsive type. My son was diagnosed with both, as he does have a hard time paying attention to tasks that are boring or hard for him. But it's not out of the norm for a child to just have the hyperactive/impulsive behaviors.

I would say keep your eye on him, and make sure things don't fall completely apart at school. Instead of being the class clown, my DS1 was having meltdowns and disrupting the class to the point he had to be removed. So he was a little more intense LOL. But ultimately, we made the decision to explore the issue further when it got this bad. Until then, we were fine making modifications at home and monitoring his behavior. My son's child psych, pedi, and DH and I all agree that school is #1. A child can have ADHD behaviors, but as long as they can make it through the school day, learn what they need to, and succeed then you don't necessarily have to intervene.

GL and I hope things get better for you.

What you and the OP describe fits my 5.5 year old to a T. The struggle is real. He has good moments at times, but holy geez can he be so hyperactive, contrary, impulsive, and inattentive. I don't doubt he has it, but his ped said to observe him during the Kinder school year and if it worsens then she'll refer us to a specialist. She said it could be ADHD, but as he gets older it could get better.

[Deleted]

We went through a similar stage with ds1 but earlier. His most hellish behavior was around 3.5-5. Starting school was tremendously good for him. We still have little flare ups of defiance from him now and then (it always seems to happen around his half year birthday for instance) but we found strategies that work. We just try to be really consistent and firm about consequences to build our credibility up, and, like you, lavish him with praise and positive, one on one time when he is good. We have found that these tactics do work with him. He understands cause and effect now and how that dynamic relates to his behavior. 

For example, about six months ago he stopped wanting to practice on the piano. Getting him to do it was like pulling teeth and more often than not resulted in a tantrum. So we said enough. If you're not going to practice, then we're not going to pay for lessons. The lessons stopped. Guess who started practicing on his own again about two weeks ago? His teacher is out of town for the summer so we told him that if he practices 5 days a week until the fall, relearning his old skills and songs, we'll start the lessons back up. So far he's been really diligent and good about it. He knows we mean business now. We won't pay for the lessons he wants unless he willingly practices.

Hang in there, it gets easier!

[juliette21]

Jun 23, 2015 14:07:17 GMT -5 Queen Mamadala said:

Jun 23, 2015 13:44:58 GMT -5 juliette21 said:

He sounds a lot like my DS1, who is 5.5 (will turn 6 in August). He also had a great beginning to K, but things started to fall apart in January, and got very bad in February until we took him to a child psychiatrist.

Ultimately, he did get diagnosed with ADHD, but we had suspected he had it for some time. We put off going to a child psych because we knew he'd get that diagnosis. We also did some counseling and work with a therapist for about 8 months before finally seeking the psych.

Just to clarify on a comment you made upthread, ADHD is the umbrella term. Not all children have the inattentive type. Some just have the hyperactive/impulsive type. My son was diagnosed with both, as he does have a hard time paying attention to tasks that are boring or hard for him. But it's not out of the norm for a child to just have the hyperactive/impulsive behaviors.

I would say keep your eye on him, and make sure things don't fall completely apart at school. Instead of being the class clown, my DS1 was having meltdowns and disrupting the class to the point he had to be removed. So he was a little more intense LOL. But ultimately, we made the decision to explore the issue further when it got this bad. Until then, we were fine making modifications at home and monitoring his behavior. My son's child psych, pedi, and DH and I all agree that school is #1. A child can have ADHD behaviors, but as long as they can make it through the school day, learn what they need to, and succeed then you don't necessarily have to intervene.

GL and I hope things get better for you.

What you and the OP describe fits my 5.5 year old to a T. The struggle is real. He has good moments at times, but holy geez can he be so hyperactive, contrary, impulsive, and inattentive. I don't doubt he has it, but his ped said to observe him during the Kinder school year and if it worsens then she'll refer us to a specialist. She said it could be ADHD, but as he gets older it could get better.

Ugh, I know completely what you mean. Mine was so contrary, I would have gladly taken a just inattentive child. But the hyperactive, impulsive, aggressive behavior was just exhausting. And sometimes kind of scary too. 

Your pedi's plan sounds like a good one. I hope he settles down as he matures and you don't need to see a specialist. 

[Willis Jackson]

Ugh.

DS1 didn't have issues at school, but so much of this sounds familiar. He loves to ask me a question and then tell me my answer is wrong, even if he has no idea what he's talking about. He messes with the baby- trying to shove toys in his mouth, poking him when he's eating, just generally being too rough. I was so relieved when I noticed that a lot of the kindergarteners at pick up did the same thing to their baby siblings.

I'm so embarrassed to take him out in public. People expect children of that age/size to act like human beings, but he is by far my worst behaved kid. He was licking a 2 way mirror in the grocery store yesterday, and wouldn't stop until I pried him away from it. WTF? 

I read this book and it helped me understand that he's normal, but it didn't really have any advice to help me cope. It was originally written in the 40s and updated in the 70s, so it's nice to know that 6 year olds have been monsters since the beginning of time. It's not my fault.

[whereintheworld]

Do your wild children also lack empathy and remorse? DH thinks DS1 is a budding sociopath because he really DGAF most of the time. Is this linked to possible ADHD?

[juliette21]

Jun 23, 2015 14:54:55 GMT -5 whereintheworld said:

Do you wild children also lack empathy and remorse? DH thinks DS1 is a budding sociopath because he really DGAF most of the time. Is this linked to possible ADHD?

My DS1 didn't show any remorse for his behavior until he started medication, honestly. He would be so riled up, that he would actually taunt us in the moment if we tried to discipline him. He would say things like, "go ahead, put me in timeout! Why don't you just hit me too." and "I'm not even sorry, you are a bad mommy and you need a timeout." We never hit or do any kind of harsh discipline so I was pretty much horrified, and a little like, please don't be saying that stuff at school.

Now that he has more control over himself, he does feel remorse and I would say he's almost gone too much the other way where he will get really upset if I even slightly re-direct him, and worry that I'm mad at him. He is very afraid of disappointing me, which is what I tell him when he hurts his brother or does something really bad.

I wouldn't necessarily worry that your son is a sociopath, if he truly has ADHD he might be overwhelmed with everything going on in his head all the time and not have the bandwidth to also express empathy. 

[lifeisinteresting]

I would post this on the special needs board over at the other place.

I would also look into a developmental pediatrician or developmental psychologist. Some have wait lists up to a year.  In the mean time ask for an evaluation at your child's school.  Request in writing and they must respond within a certain # of days (30 or 60 I think).

Some of what you describe is typical (testing boundaries) but some is not (disruptive.etc)

Laughter can be a coping mechanism for anxiety but when it is disruptive in class, not always appropriate.

Some children don't see authority figures as such. It isn't that the child is rude, he or she simply doesn't understand the hierarchy of things.  Medical conditions like ADHD, ODD, autism, etc. may look like this.

Children with some of the above disorders are also typically less emotionally mature than same age peers by a few years.

If you are concerned, make a plan for school, have a behavioral intervention plan written in for him and possibly find a psychologist that works a bit better for him.

Yes, some of this can be normal but bottom line is that if you are concerned take the extra step and have a true evaluation.