Here is something to argue about

[cna]

This is a discussion that happened on FB last night....

A 60 year old man is shot dead in his own drivaway at 3am by a group of teenaged boys (aged 14-17) when he catches them trying to break into his car. There is a video of the mother of one of the boys saying it isn't her fault her son is a delinquent and now people on FB are taking sides.

So the question is how responsible are parents for their teenagers' bad behavior?

[jag01]

I would be so devastated, I would offer my condolences and apologize to the family, but what could you possibly say or do to help the situation?
I guess I don't understand what her argument even is.

[andrewsgal]

This is hard. On one hand I say parents are somehow responsible for kids behavior on the other a 17 year old is damn near an adult and I do think no matter how kids are raised in the end they can fall I to drugs or the wrong group and make horrible choices.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Ah, the good old nature/nurture debate. I think some people are destined to be criminals even with all the great parenting in the world just like some are destined for greatness even with a shit upbringing. I think bad parenting can result in this behavior but not always.

[quesyrah]

I mean...what do we know about his home life and upbringing? I feel like that's crucial to being able to take a side.

[auroraloo]

not enough information.

[cna]

All they're saying is that they are known juvenile delinquents, the home of one of them is a known party house, and the mother in question was in jail as recently as last year. They aren't exactly jumping at the opportunity to explain themselves.

In general though, where is the line between nature and nurture?

[mamaalysson]

Where did the gun come from? Because I would feel comfortable placing a whole heap o' blame on the parents who had a loaded gun that was accessible to their teen child.

As far as nature vs nurture, I think nurture cis the more powerful force. Not all powerful, but I think it definitely has the power to both pull kids out of shitty situations or push them into them.

[cna]

I almost forgot. This lady walked into an interview with the victim's daughter and the very first thing she said was "it's not my fault". Like who does that?

[andrewsgal]

I think we also have to take into account generational poverty and a whole heap of other issues.

[gwapes]

Jul 14, 2015 17:31:36 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

One thing a parent can control is not letting their 14 yr old out at 3am.

Guess the parent should just sit on top of them all night. 

I'm pretty sure the parent didn't "let" them out at 3am. 

At 14, I'm sure they can work a deadbolt/lock and open a door, or even a window. 

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Jul 14, 2015 17:39:09 GMT -5 gwapes said:

Jul 14, 2015 17:31:36 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

One thing a parent can control is not letting their 14 yr old out at 3am.

Guess the parent should just sit on top of them all night. 

I'm pretty sure the parent didn't "let" them out at 3am. 

At 14, I'm sure they can work a deadbolt/lock and open a door, or even a window. 

lol seriously. I had helicopter parents to the extreme and still managed to sneak out in the middle of the night as a teen.

[jensriot]

In general, I don't think parents can be held responsible legally or civilly for something terrible their kid does. I think it is too much a case by cases sort of thing. Example-if my crazy, skinhead cousin's boy turns into a serial killer I will totally blame him. He shouldn't be jailed for his kid's actions, but yeah, it's probably his fault. I also know of parents that tried all the right things, but had kids end up in jail, so what should happen to them?

[mamaalysson]

Jul 14, 2015 17:42:44 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Jul 14, 2015 17:39:09 GMT -5 gwapes said:

Guess the parent should just sit on top of them all night. 

I'm pretty sure the parent didn't "let" them out at 3am. 

At 14, I'm sure they can work a deadbolt/lock and open a door, or even a window. 

lol seriously. I had helicopter parents to the extreme and still managed to sneak out in the middle of the night as a teen.

I don't know...I'm guessing there are some vast differences between your sneaking out and the sneaking out of a kid that is already a juvenile delinquent by 14 years old.  Could his parents have stopped him any better than yours did you?  Maybe not.  But I think the fact that their 14 year old was out in the middle of the night and ended up (at least partially) responsible for a man's death reflects pretty poorly on their parenting.  Trying to put myself in their shoes is horrifying, but I sure as hell would be wondering where we went wrong.

[auroraloo]

Jul 14, 2015 18:05:43 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

Jul 14, 2015 17:42:44 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

lol seriously. I had helicopter parents to the extreme and still managed to sneak out in the middle of the night as a teen.

Were you out shooting old men?! A teenager who is generally well behaved is no reason to monitor that. The occasional sneaking out in that case is pretty common. I highly doubt the kids in this case are typically well behaved and likely are routinely out at this hour and I bet their parents are not surprised they are out then. If you know your kid is out at that hour and you do nothing to prevent it, that is letting it happen. If you have a problem kid like this they are not ones you just throw your hands up in the air and say "well, nothing I can do". I do realize we don't have the details in this particular case, but I think there are many instances of young teens being out at late hours getting into trouble routinely.

Eta if you have a delinquent child who you know is out at this hour and do nothing to prevent it that is letting it happen. Not talking about the average teen here.

You don't know they did nothing. For all you know they're at their wits' end and have given up. Or they don't have the knowleedge and/or resources to do it. 

Not enough information.

[chatterbox]

I think some parents are just ill-equipped to handle teenagers, especially teenaged boys. My mom was a good example of this. By the time my brothers were in their teens she was a single mom with no control over them and she lacked the knowledge or tools to discipline them. Granted, they weren't out hurting people just drinking and being stupid in general.

I think certain people are born capable of taking a life and/or purposely hurting others. So I guess I'm team nature.

[melew]

Jul 14, 2015 15:33:01 GMT -5 cna said:

I almost forgot. This lady walked into an interview with the victim's daughter and the very first thing she said was "it's not my fault". Like who does that?

That is gross. Be a decent human being.

[rosesandpetals]

In general, I am team nature. However, in situations like this I don't blame the parents and I don't blame the kids, either. Poverty and violence are so cyclical, a lot of people don't even have a chance. I mean, they need to be held responsible and jail or whatever is appropriate. But really, I'm not surprised some people fall to this lifestyle. They're just set up for failure.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Jul 14, 2015 18:05:43 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

Jul 14, 2015 17:42:44 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

lol seriously. I had helicopter parents to the extreme and still managed to sneak out in the middle of the night as a teen.

Were you out shooting old men?! A teenager who is generally well behaved is no reason to monitor that. The occasional sneaking out in that case is pretty common. I highly doubt the kids in this case are typically well behaved and likely are routinely out at this hour and I bet their parents are not surprised they are out then. If you know your kid is out at that hour and you do nothing to prevent it, that is letting it happen. If you have a problem kid like this they are not ones you just throw your hands up in the air and say "well, nothing I can do". I do realize we don't have the details in this particular case, but I think there are many instances of young teens being out at late hours getting into trouble routinely.

Eta if you have a delinquent child who you know is out at this hour and do nothing to prevent it that is letting it happen. Not talking about the average teen here.

Not being snarky but what are parents supposed to do? Stay up all night every night and never sleep? I suppose you could put an alarm system on every door and window but it's not exactly a cost a poor family could necessarily take on. I would also assume a teen would be able to disable it.

[chatterbox]

Jul 15, 2015 7:16:00 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

Jul 15, 2015 5:34:46 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Not being snarky but what are parents supposed to do? Stay up all night every night and never sleep? I suppose you could put an alarm system on every door and window but it's not exactly a cost a poor family could necessarily take on. I would also assume a teen would be able to disable it.

See my above post. In the case of my Mom's cousin she could have made her kids come home a certain time and stay home in the evenings and spent time with them, she never tried. Of course you cannot stay up all night and of course the kid would or could try to sneak out later. I think if your kid runs with a bad crowd ( and I mean ones with guns, drugs etc) you can try to keep them home when you are to at least cut down the time they are with this bad group. We just bought an alarm for our basement walkout door and saw many alarms and locks that got good reviews and weren't expensive. Yes, kids can figure out locks and alarms, I would try though. I was just surprised yesterday to see an oh well throw your arms up in the air, you can't prevent a 14 year from sneaking out attitude. I think 14 is still pretty young. I have a niece and nephew that age and cannot imagine them out at 3am. They still do water gun fights and play on slip n slides.

I get that I am not poor and likely had a different upbringing than these kids, but I went to school with many low Sociology-economic level kids whose parents patented and did things to prevent them running amok.

Socio not sociology
Parented not patented

In my experience teaching in an urban/low-income high school vs. a middle class school. Kids living in poverty "grow up" a lot faster. You won't find 14 year-olds playing on a slip and slide. And it is very difficult to "control" a teenager when you have nothing to hold over their head. A parent can tell them they have to be home by 5:00, but what's the consequence if they don't? It's not like you can take away their cell phone or car that they don't have. You can't physically restrain them to keep them home. Also, what seems affordable to you and me (referring to the alarm) is not affordable to someone who can barely pay the rent.

I get what you are saying though. I've seen plenty of parents who don't even try. But I've also seen many who do try with no success. And parents like my mom who do their best but are pretty clueless when it comes to raising teenagers. I think we all tend to parent the way we were parented to some degree, and not everyone has a good role model and experience to draw from.

[chatterbox]

I'm not saying they are a lost cause. I would never teach in a transfer high school if I believed that. I've seen amazing transformations with students with the right support. It is what always kept me going as a teacher. I guess my point is that some parents are just in way over their heads and I don't think it is necessarily their fault. It wouldn't be fair to hold them legally accountable for their teen's actions, even though of course they are partially to blame.

[auroraloo]

Jul 15, 2015 9:00:17 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

A 14 year old is a lost cause? I also am not being snarky, and I know I don't live in a rough area, but really? You don't think teenagers can be expected to follow house rules?

I disagree with the term "lost cause" but a 14 year old exercising large amounts of free will and bucking any and all authority? Absolutely. Yes, teenagers can be expected to follow house rules, but in all honesty, teenagers suck, often. A 14 yo growing up at an accelerated rate probably thinks s/he is on top of the world and immune from and not expected to follow any rules or consequences. 

[chatterbox]

I totally get it @mama2b. I have an aunt I feel the same way about. pdq- *poof* I will hate her forever for being such a shitty mom.

Also, sorry if I sounded argumentative. I didn't mean for it to read that way

[chatterbox]

I think there are two different types of kids we are talking about here. Those who are sociopaths and/or commit violent crimes- nature. Those who are partying too much and getting into trouble because they are running with the wrong crowd- nurture.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Jul 15, 2015 7:16:00 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

Jul 15, 2015 5:34:46 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Not being snarky but what are parents supposed to do? Stay up all night every night and never sleep? I suppose you could put an alarm system on every door and window but it's not exactly a cost a poor family could necessarily take on. I would also assume a teen would be able to disable it.

See my above post. In the case of my Mom's cousin she could have made her kids come home a certain time and stay home in the evenings and spent time with them, she never tried. Of course you cannot stay up all night and of course the kid would or could try to sneak out later. I think if your kid runs with a bad crowd ( and I mean ones with guns, drugs etc) you can try to keep them home when you are to at least cut down the time they are with this bad group. We just bought an alarm for our basement walkout door and saw many alarms and locks that got good reviews and weren't expensive. Yes, kids can figure out locks and alarms, I would try though. I was just surprised yesterday to see an oh well throw your arms up in the air, you can't prevent a 14 year from sneaking out attitude. I think 14 is still pretty young. I have a niece and nephew that age and cannot imagine them out at 3am. They still do water gun fights and play on slip n slides.

I get that I am not poor and likely had a different upbringing than these kids, but I went to school with many low Sociology-economic level kids whose parents patented and did things to prevent them running amok.

Socio not sociology
Parented not patented

There are ways you can try to prevent a kid from sneaking out but blaming the parent for a kid being out at 3am as something thats fully within their control is ignorant. It might be shitty parenting but it might not be. Not enough information.

[penguingrrl]

There is absolutely not enough information given here to make a judgement. My MIL is always fond of saying that some kids end up the way they are because of their parents and some end up the way they are despite their parents. And it goes both ways. Some people overcome shitty parenting and do spectacularly. Some kids have incredibly involved, loving and caring parents who use the best resources available and end up with kids who have serious issues.

For all we know the mother of this child has been working with social workers, phychologists and psychiatrists trying to address her kid's issues. And stayed up nights trying to prevent him from sneaking out and this happened the night her body gave out and she fell asleep despite her best efforts.

Or it may be that she is so distracted and stressed trying to pay the rent and put food on the table that she hasn't had the ability to oversee his behavior the way she knows she should have been and wants to. Poverty is a terrible stressor on both children and adults and leads to behaviors that those who have always had a safety net of some sort simply can't understand. Maybe he was out at 3 am because she was working the graveyard shift and has nobody to stay with him to make sure he's in.

Or she is a shitty parent and a shitty human being and felt that 14 was old enough to be accountable for his own actions and did nothing to raise him or prevent him from being out. I very highly doubt this is the case despite how horrible her comment was (it sounds like she was on the defensive and not sure how to handle this tragedy).

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Jul 15, 2015 12:03:05 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

Jul 15, 2015 11:48:07 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

There are ways you can try to prevent a kid from sneaking out but blaming the parent for a kid being out at 3am as something thats fully within their control is ignorant. It might be shitty parenting but it might not be. Not enough information.

I already said not enough info for this specific case. Nothing ignorant here thank you kindly, just one person's opinion not meshing with yours.

You just contradicted yourself. First you agree we don't know specifics for this case. Then you say there's nothing ignorant.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Jul 15, 2015 15:43:26 GMT -5 @mama2b said:

Jul 15, 2015 13:37:02 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

You just contradicted yourself. First you agree we don't know specifics for this case. Then you say there's nothing ignorant.

I never contradicted myself. Bless your heart.

Do you know the definition of ignorant?

[livinitup]

I think the argument " It's not my fault that my teen is a juvenile delinquent because I was in jail during his formative years" may have some significant logic flaws.

[auroraloo]

Jul 16, 2015 4:49:48 GMT -5 livinitup said:

I think the argument " It's not my fault that my teen is a juvenile delinquent because I was in jail during his formative years" may have some significant logic flaws.

Absolutely, but again, without more information, being in jail is quite possibly a result of cyclical poverty.