'Auschwitz book-keeper' Oskar Groening sentenced to four yea

[marriedfilingjoint]

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33533264

'Auschwitz book-keeper' Oskar Groening sentenced to four years

A German court has convicted a 94-year-old former guard at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz of being an accessory to the murder of at least 300,000 Jews.

Oskar Groening, known as the "book-keeper of Auschwitz", was sentenced to four years in prison.

He was responsible for counting the belongings confiscated from prisoners and had admitted "moral guilt".

His lawyers said he did not facilitate genocide, but prosecutors argued that he had helped the camp run smoothly.

Many observers have questioned whether Groening will ultimately be sent to jail, given his advanced age. He is expected to be one of the last Nazis to face a courtroom.

Oskar Groening joked with his lawyers as the court waited for the judge to arrive to deliver his verdict.

Watching him carefully was a small elderly man with bright eyes. Leon was 22 when he was transported to Auschwitz. He told me he is now 94 - the same age as Groening.

He pointed to the tattooed numbers on his arm. "When they punched this on my arm they told me no-one lasts long in Auschwitz."

After the verdict I saw him again; four years is the right sentence, he said, after all he's an old man.

Can he forgive Oskar Groening, I asked? "No" he replied. "I lost 30 members of my family in Auschwitz."

The trial was held in the northern German city of Lueneburg. Delivering the verdict, Judge Franz Kompisch said Groening had willingly taken a "safe desk job" in a system that was "inhumane and all but unbearable for the human psyche".

The trial, which began earlier this year, heard evidence from several people who had survived the death camp.

One of the survivors, Eva Kor, said she forgave Groening, and tweeted a picture of herself shaking his hand.

As a child, I formed a strange myth to explain the baffling circumstances of my existence.

Early on, through my father's stories and my mother's startling revelations of horror, I absorbed the knowledge that innocent children could be murdered and whole families and communities eradicated by forces beyond their control.

The family I never knew

A statement from a group of Holocaust survivors and victims' relatives said the pain of losing families at Auschwitz could not be alleviated by criminal proceedings or the words of the accused.

"But it gives us satisfaction that now the perpetrators cannot evade prosecution as long as they live," the statement said.

The case revolved around the question of whether people who had played a minor role in the Nazi-ordered genocide but had not actively killed any Jews could still be guilty of a crime.

Cornelius Nestler, a lawyer for a group of plaintiffs, said the case demonstrated that Auschwitz as a whole was "a murder machinery".

"Everyone who participated in it has to take responsibility for it," he told Reuters news agency.
Who is Oskar Groening?
Oskar Groening described "orderly" scenes as trainloads of Jews were taken to the gas chambers

Born in 1921 in Lower Saxony, Germany

Joined the Hitler Youth and then the Waffen SS

Worked at Auschwitz from 1942, counting money confiscated from prisoners

Expressed regret and spoke openly of Auschwitz experiences, saying he wanted to counter Holocaust deniers

'Book-keeper of Auschwitz'

Groening had publicly discussed his role at Auschwitz, making him unusual among former Nazis brought to trial. He said he was speaking out in order to silence those who deny the Holocaust took place.

"I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria," he told the BBC in the 2005 documentary Auschwitz: the Nazis and the "Final Solution".

"I was on the ramp when the selections [for the gas chambers] took place."

More than one million people, most of them European Jews, died between 1940 and 1945 in the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp in Nazi-occupied Poland.

[gault]

There's a normally-sane FB friend of mine who is lamenting over the fact that he is SO OLD and it happened SO LONG AGO and why waste resources on a poor frail old man. This is almost word-for-word.

[marriedfilingjoint]

Jul 15, 2015 10:46:42 GMT -5 gault said:

There's a normally-sane FB friend of mine who is lamenting over the fact that he is SO OLD and it happened SO LONG AGO and why waste resources on a poor frail old man. This is almost word-for-word.

Oh wow.  I wonder if she'd give Hitler a pass if we found out his suicide was faked and was still alive on an island somewhere because he is SO OLD and it was SO LONG AGO.

[ttt]

I do think this brings up an interesting question about the justice system. Is the purpose of it to punish, rehabilitate or deter? Clearly in this case it is entirely about punishment because obviously no rehabilitation or deterrence is going on here.

I'm OK with that, just as I'm OK with the death penalty solely serving to punish someone, but I know many don't share this opinion.

[marriedfilingjoint]

Jul 15, 2015 10:50:50 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I think it's a fair sentence and a fair judgment. I do think being indoctrinated into the Nazi party at such a young age probably had the very real effect of brainwashing this guy. The Milgram Effect is real, and terrible.

The Nazi youth brainwashing was the only thing that gave me any pause.

[5thofjuly]

Can he forgive Oskar Groening, I asked? "No" he replied. "I lost 30 members of my family in Auschwitz."


Oh My God! What's with this question again? When did it become a cultural narrative that the victim is supposed to at least say that they forgive the person who committed some terrible atrocity to them/their family? If anything ever happens to me I kind of feel sorry in advance for the first reporter who decides to ask my dad this question.

[alexis]

Was he only found out because he was speaking out against holocaust deniers? I'm trying to figure out how that makes me feel about it.

[Deleted]

I don't know that much about this guy's history. How did he come to have this job? Has he ever explained?  Was he assigned to it somehow or was it something he applied for? If it's the latter, he can't really pretend that it was caught up in something beyond his control, kwim?

[ECB]

Jul 15, 2015 11:25:13 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

I don't know that much about this guy's history. How did he come to have this job? Has he ever explained?  Was he assigned to it somehow or was it something he applied for? If it's the latter, he can't really pretend that it was caught up in something beyond his control, kwim?

I don't know, but in the article, it does say "Delivering the verdict, Judge Franz Kompisch said Groening had willingly taken a "safe desk job" in a system that was "inhumane and all but unbearable for the human psyche"."

Was it take this desk job or take a job where (for example) he had to run the crematorium?  Did he take the lesser of two evils?  I have NO CLUE how the SS was run, but I think of our own military.  You don't get to just join and then up and leave whenever you want.  If he was in the SS and didn't see a way out, he may have simply looked for a job that was as minimally impactful as possible. 

Again, I have no idea.  Just trying to look at the various angles of this.

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2015 11:32:22 GMT -5 ECB said:

Jul 15, 2015 11:25:13 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

I don't know that much about this guy's history. How did he come to have this job? Has he ever explained?  Was he assigned to it somehow or was it something he applied for? If it's the latter, he can't really pretend that it was caught up in something beyond his control, kwim?

I don't know, but in the article, it does say "Delivering the verdict, Judge Franz Kompisch said Groening had willingly taken a "safe desk job" in a system that was "inhumane and all but unbearable for the human psyche"."

Was it take this desk job or take a job where (for example) he had to run the crematorium?  Did he take the lesser of two evils?  I have NO CLUE how the SS was run, but I think of our own military.  You don't get to just join and then up and leave whenever you want.  If he was in the SS and didn't see a way out, he may have simply looked for a job that was as minimally impactful as possible. 

Again, I have no idea.  Just trying to look at the various angles of this.

Hmm, that's a good point about how the military works. I wonder if there are any examples of people who quit their jobs at the camps and what happened to them. I have read that book Ordinary Men but it dealt with military commandos out in the field which is pretty different. Quite a few of them did bow out with little to no repercussions. But again, way different scenario. 

[ttt]

Jul 15, 2015 11:24:02 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Jul 15, 2015 11:21:43 GMT -5 alexis said:

Was he only found out because he was speaking out against holocaust deniers? I'm trying to figure out how that makes me feel about it.

He came out against holocaust deniers and outed himself.

Well that should certainly encourage others to speak up against holocaust deniers. 

[alexis]

Jul 15, 2015 11:24:02 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Jul 15, 2015 11:21:43 GMT -5 alexis said:

Was he only found out because he was speaking out against holocaust deniers? I'm trying to figure out how that makes me feel about it.

He came out against holocaust deniers and outed himself.

The fact that he is only punished because he cane out against holocaust deniers is really muddying my feelings, and I'm having trouble figuring out what I think. The fact that he came out for that express purpose would seem to suggest that he is in some small way trying to make amends, but then again way too little, way too late. OTOH, punishing those that come forward about horrific things they were involved with seems like it might be a dangerous precedent.

As I type this, I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I think this sentence is probably reasonable, but I'm glad I didn't have to make the decision.

[msmerymac]

Jul 15, 2015 11:32:22 GMT -5 ECB said:

Jul 15, 2015 11:25:13 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

I don't know that much about this guy's history. How did he come to have this job? Has he ever explained?  Was he assigned to it somehow or was it something he applied for? If it's the latter, he can't really pretend that it was caught up in something beyond his control, kwim?

I don't know, but in the article, it does say "Delivering the verdict, Judge Franz Kompisch said Groening had willingly taken a "safe desk job" in a system that was "inhumane and all but unbearable for the human psyche"."

Was it take this desk job or take a job where (for example) he had to run the crematorium?  Did he take the lesser of two evils?  I have NO CLUE how the SS was run, but I think of our own military.  You don't get to just join and then up and leave whenever you want.  If he was in the SS and didn't see a way out, he may have simply looked for a job that was as minimally impactful as possible. 

Again, I have no idea.  Just trying to look at the various angles of this.

A desk job isn't necessarily minimally impactful to anyone but him, the person who doesn't have to witness such atrocities. 

[AJL]

I'm not sure how to feel about this. He participated in arguably the greatest atrocity against humanity of the 20th century. Whether he herded prisoners into the death chambers himself or pushed a pencil at a desk to support the regime, he is guilty. I think the sentence is appropriate.

I have very complicated feelings re: the Holocaust and those who took part in the murder of 11 million people, more than half of which were Jews.  The Holocaust never leaves us. I think it's part of our DNA as descendants of Jews who lived through WWII, whether or not those ancestors were directly impacted by the Nazi regime. 

From the article: "But it gives us satisfaction that now the perpetrators cannot evade prosecution as long as they live."  I think that's a very important sentiment.

[Deleted]

Fwiw, his wiki entry says he tried to quit twice after he found out what the purpose of the camp truly was but it doesn't sound like he tried too hard. After his request was denied, it sounds like he kind of hid his head in the proverbial sand at his desk job. I wonder what would have happened to him if he had just walked out? Impossible to say, I know, but still.

[marriedfilingjoint]

It was a military position, wouldn't "quitting" be deserting? I don't imagine that goes over too well.

[ttt]

After reading his story, I'm not sure realistically what he was supposed to have done differently. He couldn't very well quit once he found out what was going on. I don't think he was in a position to change the policies or positions of the Nazi party. He was no hero - he didn't sacrifice himself or his family to try to stop the genocide or save people - but is it a war crime to fail to be a hero?

[cookiemdough]

The mental gymnastics in here are making me dizzy. There are people sent to jail for longer than that for far less. Hell we just gave jail sentences to educators for cheating. Yes he should go to jail. He was fortunate to live a long life of freedom and if he truly is sorry for his actions he should be understanding that his punishment is actually light given the atrocity he was involved in.

[ttt]

Jul 15, 2015 17:07:32 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

The mental gymnastics in here are making me dizzy. There are people sent to jail for longer than that for far less. Hell we just gave jail sentences to educators for cheating. Yes he should go to jail. He was fortunate to live a long life of freedom and if he truly is sorry for his actions he should be understanding that his punishment is actually light given the atrocity he was involved in.

The atrocity he was involved in, sure. But what was his involvement? How much responsibility does he bear personally for murders that he witnessed and did not stop but did not personally commit? How much responsibility does someone bear who worked at a concentration camp for a month and then fled Germany? Someone who worked there for a year? Someone whose sole job was to prepare food for prisoners but who knew what was happening? Someone who did railroad maintenance on those tracks? Morally, legally, what is a person's culpability, responsibility and obligation?

There are so many shades here. It's easy to judge the outliers - the architects of the Holocaust, the Himmlers and Eichmanns, are clearly guilty and worthy of the worst hell that exists, while the people who risked their lives to save people, the Oskar Schindlers and Miep Gieses and Albert Gorings, are clearly the heroes. But many many more are in between.

[AJL]

His job was to keep an accounting of funds confiscated from prisoners. He knew what was happening to the Jews at Auchwitz. He witnessed a sickening act of violence commited against an infant left on the train platform at the camp and did NOTHING to stop it. He was complicit in perpetuating the system of extermination against Jews. He was guilty of crimes agaist humanity because though he didn't pull the trigger or usher prisoners into gas chambers himself, he secured desk jobs so he wouldn't have to see what was happening to human beings at the hands of his country men. He is getting four years in prison. It's nothing. There are centuries of family lines completely made extinct because of Auschwitz. He gets no pardon and no pass from me because he wasn't Eichmann, Himmler, or Hitler.

[cookiemdough]

Jul 15, 2015 20:14:31 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 15, 2015 17:07:32 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

The mental gymnastics in here are making me dizzy. There are people sent to jail for longer than that for far less. Hell we just gave jail sentences to educators for cheating. Yes he should go to jail. He was fortunate to live a long life of freedom and if he truly is sorry for his actions he should be understanding that his punishment is actually light given the atrocity he was involved in.

The atrocity he was involved in, sure. But what was his involvement? How much responsibility does he bear personally for murders that he witnessed and did not stop but did not personally commit? How much responsibility does someone bear who worked at a concentration camp for a month and then fled Germany? Someone who worked there for a year? Someone whose sole job was to prepare food for prisoners but who knew what was happening? Someone who did railroad maintenance on those tracks? Morally, legally, what is a person's culpability, responsibility and obligation?

There are so many shades here. It's easy to judge the outliers - the architects of the Holocaust, the Himmlers and Eichmanns, are clearly guilty and worthy of the worst hell that exists, while the people who risked their lives to save people, the Oskar Schindlers and Miep Gieses and Albert Gorings, are clearly the heroes. But many many more are in between.

I don't know, the same culpability as a gang member who fears leaving the gang will end his life and so decides to stay in?  The same culpability as someone who launders money for drug dealers even if they aren't involved in the actual buying and selling of the illegal substance.  The same culpability of girlfriends who drive their boyfriends cars not knowing an illegal gun or drugs are in the car but get busted with it anyway for making the bad decision of just dating a drug dealer.  These people aren't somehow excluded from jail just because they are not the primary person carrying out the crime.  We have charged people in a variety of situations for acting as accessories to crimes.  I just don't see the sympathy here.  Even he said the sentence seemed fair.  Further, the info in the OP says he joined the Hitler Youth not that he was drafted or forced to join.  I am not sure of his options once he was in, but I think it takes a whole construct of people's participation to varying degrees for something like this to happen.  I am okay with him paying for his role in that.   

ETA: I don't think the examples I gave here are even close to his crime, but was just showing that people go to jail for far less.

[sporklemotion]

Jul 15, 2015 11:41:02 GMT -5 alexis said:

Jul 15, 2015 11:24:02 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

He came out against holocaust deniers and outed himself.

The fact that he is only punished because he cane out against holocaust deniers is really muddying my feelings, and I'm having trouble figuring out what I think. The fact that he came out for that express purpose would seem to suggest that he is in some small way trying to make amends, but then again way too little, way too late. OTOH, punishing those that come forward about horrific things they were involved with seems like it might be a dangerous precedent.

As I type this, I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I think this sentence is probably reasonable, but I'm glad I didn't have to make the decision.

Not punishing them does too, though.  I'm not comfortable with someone getting a pass solely because they admit what they did.  Given the horrors of the Holocaust and his (presumably) willing participation in the system, I don't think a four year sentence too much to ask.  As PP noted, the desk job may have insulated him from the deaths, but it's not like his role was completely neutral; he may just be squeamish or better at bookkeeping than manual labor. 

I think a four year sentence is fine, though I feel this primarily because of his age, not his level of culpability. I think I would feel differently about someone who played a similar part in a more recent atrocity, such as the Rwandan genocide (if t here is an analogous role). I know that circumstances were different in many ways, but my point is that I think the fact that any jail time is possibly a life sentence makes me more willing to go along with a short sentence.  

FWIW, I am Jewish and my paternal grandfather was the only person from his family who escaped the Holocaust (he left Europe between the two world wars).

[lg28]

I have mixed feelings about this. I agree with those who said that he probably didn't have much of a choice. Did he have any children he was trying to come home to at night? I read an account from a guard (at Dachau I believe) that he basically followed orders to protect his own family. It was awful.

4 years does not begin to do justice, but I also think a harsher sentence at his age is pointless.

Personally, I would have the guy become an educational speaker about the atrocities of war.

[ttt]

Jul 15, 2015 20:32:58 GMT -5 AJL said:

His job was to keep an accounting of funds confiscated from prisoners. He knew what was happening to the Jews at Auchwitz. He witnessed a sickening act of violence commited against an infant left on the train platform at the camp and did NOTHING to stop it. He was complicit in perpetuating the system of extermination against Jews. He was guilty of crimes agaist humanity because though he didn't pull the trigger or usher prisoners into gas chambers himself, he secured desk jobs so he wouldn't have to see what was happening to human beings at the hands of his country men. He is getting four years in prison. It's nothing. There are centuries of family lines completely made extinct because of Auschwitz. He gets no pardon and no pass from me because he wasn't Eichmann, Himmler, or Hitler.

If you were him, what would you have done?

[ttt]

Jul 15, 2015 20:46:35 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Jul 15, 2015 20:14:31 GMT -5 ttt said:

The atrocity he was involved in, sure. But what was his involvement? How much responsibility does he bear personally for murders that he witnessed and did not stop but did not personally commit? How much responsibility does someone bear who worked at a concentration camp for a month and then fled Germany? Someone who worked there for a year? Someone whose sole job was to prepare food for prisoners but who knew what was happening? Someone who did railroad maintenance on those tracks? Morally, legally, what is a person's culpability, responsibility and obligation?

There are so many shades here. It's easy to judge the outliers - the architects of the Holocaust, the Himmlers and Eichmanns, are clearly guilty and worthy of the worst hell that exists, while the people who risked their lives to save people, the Oskar Schindlers and Miep Gieses and Albert Gorings, are clearly the heroes. But many many more are in between.

I don't know, the same culpability as a gang member who fears leaving the gang will end his life and so decides to stay in?  The same culpability as someone who launders money for drug dealers even if they aren't involved in the actual buying and selling of the illegal substance.  The same culpability of girlfriends who drive their boyfriends cars not knowing an illegal gun or drugs are in the car but get busted with it anyway for making the bad decision of just dating a drug dealer.  These people aren't somehow excluded from jail just because they are not the primary person carrying out the crime.  We have charged people in a variety of situations for acting as accessories to crimes.  I just don't see the sympathy here.  Even he said the sentence seemed fair.  Further, the info in the OP says he joined the Hitler Youth not that he was drafted or forced to join.  I am not sure of his options once he was in, but I think it takes a whole construct of people's participation to varying degrees for something like this to happen.  I am okay with him paying for his role in that.   

ETA: I don't think the examples I gave here are even close to his crime, but was just showing that people go to jail for far less.

I don't have any sympathy for him either, and I think the sentence is fair too. I just think these are difficult questions, especially when you have a massive, state-wide campaign of genocide.

[AJL]

Jul 15, 2015 21:19:35 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 15, 2015 20:32:58 GMT -5 AJL said:

His job was to keep an accounting of funds confiscated from prisoners. He knew what was happening to the Jews at Auchwitz. He witnessed a sickening act of violence commited against an infant left on the train platform at the camp and did NOTHING to stop it. He was complicit in perpetuating the system of extermination against Jews. He was guilty of crimes agaist humanity because though he didn't pull the trigger or usher prisoners into gas chambers himself, he secured desk jobs so he wouldn't have to see what was happening to human beings at the hands of his country men. He is getting four years in prison. It's nothing. There are centuries of family lines completely made extinct because of Auschwitz. He gets no pardon and no pass from me because he wasn't Eichmann, Himmler, or Hitler.

If you were him, what would you have done?

I don't know, but likely I would have been executed in the attempt and that is a far better fate than knowing the truth and sitting by to save my own ass.

[ttt]

And it's not really related, but I thought the cheating teachers getting *any* prison time was appalling.

[ttt]

Jul 15, 2015 21:22:18 GMT -5 AJL said:

Jul 15, 2015 21:19:35 GMT -5 ttt said:

If you were him, what would you have done?

I don't know, but likely I would have been executed in the attempt and that is a far better fate than knowing the truth and sitting by to save my own ass.

I jus think it's overly simplistic to think "well *I* would have sacrificed my own life and I would have sacrificed my children and my parents too, to try to stop this, I wouldn't have been like all those people who didn't care." Maybe you would have, but the vast majority of people are not extraordinary, self-sacrificing heroes even if they would like to think they would be. Most people just try to stay alive and survive.

[AJL]

Jul 15, 2015 21:26:18 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 15, 2015 21:22:18 GMT -5 AJL said:

I don't know, but likely I would have been executed in the attempt and that is a far better fate than knowing the truth and sitting by to save my own ass.

I jus think it's overly simplistic to think "well *I* would have sacrificed my own life and I would have sacrificed my children and my parents too, to try to stop this, I wouldn't have been like all those people who didn't care." Maybe you would have, but the vast majority of people are not extraordinary, self-sacrificing heroes even if they would like to think they would be. Most people just try to stay alive and survive.

And that's fine. You asked what I would do. I told you. 

However, it doesn't change that the fact that Oskar Groenning IS responsible for his actions. He has been delivered a sentence and I do not think it is the least bit inappropriate. 

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2015 21:26:18 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 15, 2015 21:22:18 GMT -5 AJL said:

I don't know, but likely I would have been executed in the attempt and that is a far better fate than knowing the truth and sitting by to save my own ass.

I jus think it's overly simplistic to think "well *I* would have sacrificed my own life and I would have sacrificed my children and my parents too, to try to stop this, I wouldn't have been like all those people who didn't care." Maybe you would have, but the vast majority of people are not extraordinary, self-sacrificing heroes even if they would like to think they would be. Most people just try to stay alive and survive.

Personally, I dont think any of us can guess how we would behave until we were in such a situation. Obviously we would all like to think we would be a hero, but perhaps we would shit our pants and do nothing.
As for this guy, I don't see he had much choice. What a terrible position to be put in or even to get yourself into. It wasn't like the Nazis would be "Oh, sure, no its fine, you can leave, no worries! We thought you were down with the whole killing Jews thing, but as you are not, off you go then!" KWIM? He was basically fucked whatever he did, and I think that was the case for many. I don't know whether he should be punished or what. I am glad I did not have to decide.