What do you think of this? Calls from priest

[cna]

One of my problems with organized religion is the feeling like you have some obligation to attend services. If someone was keeping tabs on how often we were or were not there I would feel weird.

The disclaimer here is that I have never attended a Catholic mass.

[atlas]

Jul 19, 2015 9:46:30 GMT -5 amynumbers said:

Lol of course the priest knows if you are going every week -- they audit your donation envelopes! That is exactly how they track if you are a "practicing catholic".

People still use the envelopes where you are?!? LOL. Ours is a bunch of cash, random coins, and the occasional check.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Jul 20, 2015 12:58:46 GMT -5 amynumbers said:

Jul 20, 2015 12:19:44 GMT -5 lala said:

I really struggle with people baptizing their kids when they either don't believe and/or have no intention of attending or following through with their promises.

I realize it doesn't necessarily affect me - aside from the part where they ask the congregation to help raise the child in the church.

I would also hate attending a church so large that the pastor/priest was unable to remember most people.

RE: attending church regularly - I have always felt the idea was to be together with other people (maybe believers, maybe not) who were on a journey in faith, too. It's not that you can't be spiritual or believe without a church; but that the point of the church was to bring us together in community. To fellowship together in a "we weren't meant to live life alone," kind of way. Sadly, we are all human, clergy included, and various leaders & churches haven't been close to perfect.

Team Lala. I don't so much struggle with people baptizing their kids in a church they don't agree with or participate in as I just think "come on now, you are an adult with children, grow a pair". It's like for all the talk, it's still about being afraid to ruffle grandma's feathers.

We baptized one in church, against DH's wishes, and it was such a dog and pony bullshit show. One godparent had to make up donations to "prove they were practicing". Another who was gay -- well their mom had to lie to a priest for them to get "the letter". Go to a new parish? lol. That isn't how it works, especially in a large diocese. You have to be a parishioner at the church in your boundaries, and that church needs to "release" you to another even if you aren't a member. Been there, done that.

We don't go to church. We don't think babies who don't get spritzed with water burn in hell. When we had our second we both decided to go a simple blessing my a UCC minister. DH's grandma and aunt didn't come. ok. Not our problem.

Eh, it wasn't because I didn't want to ruffle grandmas feathers. Grandma knows full well we were atheists and will be teaching the kids our set of beliefs. Grandma happened to believe that our kids souls would be damned to purgatory. It was a no brainer that giving her peace of mind trumped some meaningless ceremony to us. Now with that being said I wouldn't have deceived some priest promising to be there every week to get it done so if the church was unwilling she would have been out of luck. We were honest and told them while our kids would be exposed to Christian beliefs it would be their decision in the future to attend church/continue on with the sacraments. That was good enough for the priest.

[amynumbers]

Jul 20, 2015 13:06:07 GMT -5 cna said:

One of my problems with organized religion is the feeling like you have some obligation to attend services. If someone was keeping tabs on how often we were or were not there I would feel weird.

The disclaimer here is that I have never attended a Catholic mass.

Oh I am with you! 100% But that is a major tenant of Catholicism, even if you family doesn't do it.

The thing about Catholicism is, even if you find the cool progressive church or priest, everyone still answers to the Vatican. Twice in the past year in our area there have been major stories of gay faculty members at Catholic schools being fired. In both situations, the faculty members were out when hired, and their partners were included members of the school community at things like fundriasers -- just like any other faculty spouse. You think you stumbled on a progressive Catholic community. Then one parent has one beef with one teacher, makes one phone call, and that teacher is fired for being gay. literally! Because there is zero protection because a Catholic school is not obligiged to keep you if you break a Catholic rule.

You can shop for a new Catholic Church all day, but the rules are exactly same. Who you are depends on whether those rules can be broken, but there is zero protection if they are.

[nicolewi]

I'm not sure what's directed at me anymore, but I do consider us to be "practicing." not to the standard the church officially wants, but practicing much more than many other people we know, including may other Catholics. So, amynumbers especially, yes we are "breaking the rules" re: weekly attendance, but what percentage of people are NOT?? I have a hard time believing that everyone at your parish truly is there every single week. I understand that doesn't make it right not to be there every week, but I guess (this is where my Catholic struggles come in) I have a hard time agreeing with church teaching that it's really WRONG.

So...FWIW...we are doing what we can and I am pretty comfortable with that for now. It's not like we did the baptism with no intention of doing anything else. We have been attending the parish for over a year, are members, and continue to attend...just not every single week. Especially when DH is in his busy seasons and works long hours 7 days/week, I'm not taking all four kids on my own. I also didn't go for the first couple months with a newborn b/c I'm a germophobe like that with a new baby in cold/flu season.

ANd, even for those who did a baptism with no intention of anything else, I still think the church should assume that's better than nothing..it's a start from their perspective, right? Why not bless the baby if it's important to the family?

AND, everyone wants different things from church. Some want community and a shared journey, some want quiet anonymity. That's why there are many faiths and many different ways to practice within the same faith.

In our area, we could choose a different parish if we wish and we do attend other churches as well sometimes based on mass times. This is not an issue here in our area. We do sometimes go when we're at the cottage, too. In fact, we usually go if we're up there on a Sunday.

[lala]

Jul 20, 2015 13:06:07 GMT -5 cna said:

One of my problems with organized religion is the feeling like you have some obligation to attend services. If someone was keeping tabs on how often we were or were not there I would feel weird.

The disclaimer here is that I have never attended a Catholic mass.

I've attend plenty of masses as well as funerals & weddings & baptisms & confirmations. But I wasn't raised catholic and would never convert to Catholicism. 

To address my feelings & experience on the first part, though, it's not keeping tabs in an attendance kind of way. I know it seems that way. Like any other organization or business or society, churches need to keep track of numbers. Generally the only way they know you specifically were there is if the clergy, other staff or welcome committee person notice OR you give w/ a check/envelope OR you fill out the attendance pad thing (if they have one).

I will say they way churches should be run is that the only person who knows who gave and how much you gave is the financial secretary; but to my knowledge that's how non-catholic churches are run. 

For non-catholic churches, anyway, they don't want you to feel obligated to come. They want you to come b/c you want to and b/c you find something beneficial in their service. If they call/write/email, etc. it's b/c they noticed you were not there (whether it's for 1 week or a month or whatever) and genuinely hope you come back again. Do they want you to give money? Sure. It's a business. They need to pay the bills. 

Anytime we have a discussion like this, I'm reminded how good I have had it and I wish the general you had a better church experience (if you wanted one anyway). 

[rosesandpetals]

I have never hears of being assigned a parish. Amy and penguin you live near each other, right? Maybe it is a regional thing? I've lived in the middle of nowhere and in Boston (with a large catholic population) and everywhere in between and I've never been assigned a parish, so it isn't always how it is done.

And ftr, I do not care at all how often you do/don't go to church. I think catholic churchs are reaping what they've sown wrt people baptizing out of fear or guilt. Years of guilt and fear mongering bite them in the ass, no surprise there.

[rosesandpetals]

Lala, the catholic elementary here to get "catholic enrollment" which means before it is opened to the public, you need to be not only actively going to church but you need to donate a certain amount each year. They have some bs about how people who donate more are contributing to the upkeep, but e in going to church every week isn't good enough if you can't afford however much the minimum is (I forget but it was not a small number). I have Always disagreed with that but yeah, others definitely know how much you give.

[penguingrrl]

Jul 20, 2015 13:12:51 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Jul 20, 2015 12:58:46 GMT -5 amynumbers said:

Team Lala. I don't so much struggle with people baptizing their kids in a church they don't agree with or participate in as I just think "come on now, you are an adult with children, grow a pair". It's like for all the talk, it's still about being afraid to ruffle grandma's feathers.

We baptized one in church, against DH's wishes, and it was such a dog and pony bullshit show. One godparent had to make up donations to "prove they were practicing". Another who was gay -- well their mom had to lie to a priest for them to get "the letter". Go to a new parish? lol. That isn't how it works, especially in a large diocese. You have to be a parishioner at the church in your boundaries, and that church needs to "release" you to another even if you aren't a member. Been there, done that.

We don't go to church. We don't think babies who don't get spritzed with water burn in hell. When we had our second we both decided to go a simple blessing my a UCC minister. DH's grandma and aunt didn't come. ok. Not our problem.

Eh, it wasn't because I didn't want to ruffle grandmas feathers. Grandma knows full well we were atheists and will be teaching the kids our set of beliefs. Grandma happened to believe that our kids souls would be damned to purgatory. It was a no brainer that giving her peace of mind trumped some meaningless ceremony to us. Now with that being said I wouldn't have deceived some priest promising to be there every week to get it done so if the church was unwilling she would have been out of luck. We were honest and told them while our kids would be exposed to Christian beliefs it would be their decision in the future to attend church/continue on with the sacraments. That was good enough for the priest.

That was exactly how we viewed it (except that we don't call ourselves atheists, we're open to the idea of a higher spirit, just not organized religion). But when your aunt who helped raise you and has done a ton for you your entire life is on the phone crying about your baby going to purgatory because you brought them home before baptizing them (seriously, she gets anxious that it's not done en route from the hospital, as apparently was tradition when she grew up) you sometimes make the decision to do the ceremony for their sake. We didn't have parties after any of them because I didn't feel right having a party for something I was doing grudgingly. 

[cna]

Jul 20, 2015 13:27:06 GMT -5 lala said:

Jul 20, 2015 13:06:07 GMT -5 cna said:

One of my problems with organized religion is the feeling like you have some obligation to attend services. If someone was keeping tabs on how often we were or were not there I would feel weird.

The disclaimer here is that I have never attended a Catholic mass.

I've attend plenty of masses as well as funerals & weddings & baptisms & confirmations. But I wasn't raised catholic and would never convert to Catholicism. 

To address my feelings & experience on the first part, though, it's not keeping tabs in an attendance kind of way. I know it seems that way. Like any other organization or business or society, churches need to keep track of numbers. Generally the only way they know you specifically were there is if the clergy, other staff or welcome committee person notice OR you give w/ a check/envelope OR you fill out the attendance pad thing (if they have one).

I will say they way churches should be run is that the only person who knows who gave and how much you gave is the financial secretary; but to my knowledge that's how non-catholic churches are run. 

For non-catholic churches, anyway, they don't want you to feel obligated to come. They want you to come b/c you want to and b/c you find something beneficial in their service. If they call/write/email, etc. it's b/c they noticed you were not there (whether it's for 1 week or a month or whatever) and genuinely hope you come back again. Do they want you to give money? Sure. It's a business. They need to pay the bills. 

Anytime we have a discussion like this, I'm reminded how good I have had it and I wish the general you had a better church experience (if you wanted one anyway). 

I grew up going to a family run church 3 times a week. Even when I started to feel disillusioned by the whole thing I was still expected to go and I felt like I was being forced to conform to something I wasn't really sure about. Once the church lost funding and had to close, I thankfully was able to explore more options and form my own opinions. That isn't the only catalyst for my current opinions but it certainly doesn't help.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Jul 20, 2015 13:34:04 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jul 20, 2015 13:12:51 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Eh, it wasn't because I didn't want to ruffle grandmas feathers. Grandma knows full well we were atheists and will be teaching the kids our set of beliefs. Grandma happened to believe that our kids souls would be damned to purgatory. It was a no brainer that giving her peace of mind trumped some meaningless ceremony to us. Now with that being said I wouldn't have deceived some priest promising to be there every week to get it done so if the church was unwilling she would have been out of luck. We were honest and told them while our kids would be exposed to Christian beliefs it would be their decision in the future to attend church/continue on with the sacraments. That was good enough for the priest.

That was exactly how we viewed it (except that we don't call ourselves atheists, we're open to the idea of a higher spirit, just not organized religion). But when your aunt who helped raise you and has done a ton for you your entire life is on the phone crying about your baby going to purgatory because you brought them home before baptizing them (seriously, she gets anxious that it's not done en route from the hospital, as apparently was tradition when she grew up) you sometimes make the decision to do the ceremony for their sake. We didn't have parties after any of them because I didn't feel right having a party for something I was doing grudgingly. 

We were the same way. My dhs side of the family are atheists so we didn't invite them. We didn't invite friends either because we didn't want them to feel obligated to bring an envelope because that felt hypocritical. Just a small ceremony with parents, grandparents and a few aunts.

[penguingrrl]

Jul 20, 2015 13:29:07 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

I have never hears of being assigned a parish. Amy and penguin you live near each other, right? Maybe it is a regional thing? I've lived in the middle of nowhere and in Boston (with a large catholic population) and everywhere in between and I've never been assigned a parish, so it isn't always how it is done.

And ftr, I do not care at all how often you do/don't go to church. I think catholic churchs are reaping what they've sown wrt people baptizing out of fear or guilt. Years of guilt and fear mongering bite them in the ass, no surprise there.

She's in Philly and I'm in Coastal NJ. I'm not sure if the assigned parish thing is specific to my local area or my diocese (Diocese of Trenton). I know that half my town is assigned one church, half the other. 

[rosesandpetals]

Jul 20, 2015 13:37:40 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jul 20, 2015 13:29:07 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

I have never hears of being assigned a parish. Amy and penguin you live near each other, right? Maybe it is a regional thing? I've lived in the middle of nowhere and in Boston (with a large catholic population) and everywhere in between and I've never been assigned a parish, so it isn't always how it is done.

And ftr, I do not care at all how often you do/don't go to church. I think catholic churchs are reaping what they've sown wrt people baptizing out of fear or guilt. Years of guilt and fear mongering bite them in the ass, no surprise there.

She's in Philly and I'm in Coastal NJ. I'm not sure if the assigned parish thing is specific to my local area or my diocese (Diocese of Trenton). I know that half my town is assigned one church, half the other. 

it is crazy how different it is by arch diocese.

[lala]

Jul 20, 2015 13:33:51 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Lala, the catholic elementary here to get "catholic enrollment" which means before it is opened to the public, you need to be not only actively going to church but you need to donate a certain amount each year. They have some bs about how people who donate more are contributing to the upkeep, but e in going to church every week isn't good enough if you can't afford however much the minimum is (I forget but it was not a small number). I have Always disagreed with that but yeah, others definitely know how much you give.

Yea, that's ridiculous. I have no idea how the parochial schools work here.

[Deleted]

I'm not Catholic, so from my perspective, the priest was checking in as a courtesy, hopefully from a place of caring, not of duty...but I don't believe God "counts" church or keeps track of any certain number of "Christian" things checked off a list.

But I also don't believe in a priest as an intermediary...I think the Bible says Jesus is our intermediary. So I would have no issue asking him to please stop calling.


(This is not directed at you, nicolewi). Just musings.





Eta: I'm with lala. And I'm sorry so many of you have had such negative experiences with church, which in turns affects how you view God. I hope if you (generic) want to know Him more, and/or find a better fit for a church that you will seek it out.

[penguingrrl]

Jul 20, 2015 13:40:30 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Jul 20, 2015 13:37:40 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

She's in Philly and I'm in Coastal NJ. I'm not sure if the assigned parish thing is specific to my local area or my diocese (Diocese of Trenton). I know that half my town is assigned one church, half the other. 

it is crazy how different it is by arch diocese.

Oh definitely! I'm not sure why they do it that way, but I do know the second parish serving my town is a much newer church (formed in 1955) and it was founded right around the time when the commuter rail stretched down here and a huge housing boom turned our area from small town/farming area to a bedroom community for people from NYC. I suspect that the huge influx of people in the area overloaded the existing parishes and whoever was in charge decided that was the best way to make sure each parish had no more members than it could handle.

[livinitup]

Jul 20, 2015 13:34:04 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jul 20, 2015 13:12:51 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Eh, it wasn't because I didn't want to ruffle grandmas feathers. Grandma knows full well we were atheists and will be teaching the kids our set of beliefs. Grandma happened to believe that our kids souls would be damned to purgatory. It was a no brainer that giving her peace of mind trumped some meaningless ceremony to us. Now with that being said I wouldn't have deceived some priest promising to be there every week to get it done so if the church was unwilling she would have been out of luck. We were honest and told them while our kids would be exposed to Christian beliefs it would be their decision in the future to attend church/continue on with the sacraments. That was good enough for the priest.

That was exactly how we viewed it (except that we don't call ourselves atheists, we're open to the idea of a higher spirit, just not organized religion). But when your aunt who helped raise you and has done a ton for you your entire life is on the phone crying about your baby going to purgatory because you brought them home before baptizing them (seriously, she gets anxious that it's not done en route from the hospital, as apparently was tradition when she grew up) you sometimes make the decision to do the ceremony for their sake. We didn't have parties after any of them because I didn't feel right having a party for something I was doing grudgingly. 

Some have mentioned this several times, so I think it's worth the effort to clarify that unbaptized babies do not go to purgatory, they go to limbo. And "limbo" has never actually been sanctioned by the Catholic Church - it's just an odd, old explanation for what may happen to such innocent babies who don't get baptized - not heaven, not hell. And it's now completely dubunked by the Vatican, entirely. I applaud your efforts at baptizing for the sake of family, and I am extremely happy that you found a much better church to fit for you and your family now.

[usm]

Jul 20, 2015 13:29:07 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

I have never hears of being assigned a parish. Amy and penguin you live near each other, right? Maybe it is a regional thing? I've lived in the middle of nowhere and in Boston (with a large catholic population) and everywhere in between and I've never been assigned a parish, so it isn't always how it is done.

And ftr, I do not care at all how often you do/don't go to church. I think catholic churchs are reaping what they've sown wrt people baptizing out of fear or guilt. Years of guilt and fear mongering bite them in the ass, no surprise there.

I am in the south and we have assigned parishes based on address. We switched to another church and fortunately it wasn't too complicated, unlike our wedding that involved multiple letters and calls between different parishes.

[rosesandpetals]

Jul 20, 2015 22:20:30 GMT -5 usm said:

Jul 20, 2015 13:29:07 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

I have never hears of being assigned a parish. Amy and penguin you live near each other, right? Maybe it is a regional thing? I've lived in the middle of nowhere and in Boston (with a large catholic population) and everywhere in between and I've never been assigned a parish, so it isn't always how it is done.

And ftr, I do not care at all how often you do/don't go to church. I think catholic churchs are reaping what they've sown wrt people baptizing out of fear or guilt. Years of guilt and fear mongering bite them in the ass, no surprise there.

I am in the south and we have assigned parishes based on address. We switched to another church and fortunately it wasn't too complicated, unlike our wedding that involved multiple letters and calls between different parishes.

If you switched then it isn't assigned? I hear you on the wedding, though. I got married in another state than my "home" parish and it was a nightmare. Honestly, I think that is part of the problem. They scare people away. Imagine having never been in a Catholic church and trying to navigate everything. It is hard enough when you grow up with it.

[usm]

Jul 21, 2015 2:15:34 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Jul 20, 2015 22:20:30 GMT -5 usm said:

I am in the south and we have assigned parishes based on address. We switched to another church and fortunately it wasn't too complicated, unlike our wedding that involved multiple letters and calls between different parishes.

If you switched then it isn't assigned? I hear you on the wedding, though. I got married in another state than my "home" parish and it was a nightmare. Honestly, I think that is part of the problem. They scare people away. Imagine having never been in a Catholic church and trying to navigate everything. It is hard enough when you grow up with it.

Oh, it involved paperwork and our assigned parish "approving" the switch. I just didn't have to call anyone and only 1 letter was sent.

We were also married out of state in a Methodist church( I am Methodist) That was fun-ha! I make DH do all of the church rigmarole because he is the catholic, and if he means that much he can deal with the politics.