Participating in another's religion: What can cause offense?

[kirra]

Aug 15, 2015 9:00:54 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Aug 15, 2015 8:52:44 GMT -5 pamela said:

I would not appear to pray to him. Someone else mentioned it up thread. While in my heart I could always pray, I also always have to bear witness so even appearing to pray to another god is contrary to that.

What if you were at a Jewish service?

Not Pamela, but your question is interesting.

As a Christian, I personally would be comfortable praying in a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic service. They're all the same God.

I'm not sure what I would do for another religion. I think just sit or stand quietly.

[kirra]

I'm generic Protestant. I can't think of anything a person following basic social courtesy could do during a service that would horrify people.

I don't take communion when I go to Catholic mass. Taking communion as a non Catholic at a Catholic Church is incredibly disrespectful when you know you shouldn't. Most Catholics I know wouldn't be horrified if someone did it not knowing the rules, but would explain why you can't.

[bourbonfan]

Aug 16, 2015 0:56:34 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Aug 15, 2015 8:59:33 GMT -5 pamela said:

And the reason this is different from other Christian denominations is that Catholics believe it is actually the body of Christ, not a symbol. So if you are not in the right state or accept it for what it is, it would bring more harm to you than good.

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." 1 Cor 11:27-29

So Catholics should guard Non-Catholics from doing that.

But a non Catholic wouldn't believe in your Corinthians quote. Are you saying you really believe something "bad" () would happen to a non Catholic taking communion? Like what?

Obviously this answer is going to differ based on the person answering, but to me this is where religion gets tricky. I would like to think that the God we believe in would understand that this person taking communion doesn't know any better.

But I also have an issue with the idea of one God being the "right" one. I mean, let's be honest here, what religion you are (unless you're a convert) is more than likely a result of who your parents are and what community you were born into. You're not necessarily taught all religions as a child and then given the option to choose. You could have just as easily been born into a family of an entirely different religion and would believe an entirely different God is the real deal. So how do you know? It all falls into your faith, but as sure as you are that your God is THE God, someone else is just as sure that you're wrong. As strong as your faith is, someone else also has a strong faith in something different.

I'd like to think that God understands that, and that in reality, despite all of our differences in how we worship, we're all ultimately worshipping the same God. I know there will be many of you that disagree with that, and that's ok. But I'd hate to think that my God, who created us all, would look down upon or punish those who's only real transgression was being born into a family that practices an entirely different religion. I mean, how fucked up would that be? "I sent you to be born to a tribal family in some small village in the Amazon, and because no Catholic missionary ever came to you and taught you that Catholism is the right religion, you're doomed to hell?" That's some messed up shit right there.

[NewOrleans]

I think if you're not going to participate in anything-- even while praying to the god you believe in-- then you're better off politely declining to accompany the friend. Because it would be far more disrespectful to A) sit there like it's a show for you to watch or B) look for things in the service that are sinful and blasphemous to what you believe.

[NewOrleans]

I'm still hacked off about some of the replies in here.

"I can't even 'appear' to be going along with someone's beliefs" is as gross as when AW said she was afraid of being mistaken as Muslim because of her head covering.

Especially when you haven't bothered to learn about the traditions and are just assuming what they mean.

[LadySusan]

I think we should cut the religious people some slack. Maybe start with the assumption that they are just trying to do their best. No one in these anecdotes has told anyone they are going to burn in hell or similar asshattery.

It's so much easier for agnostics and atheists to give no fucks. Religion is complicated. There are rules that people are supposed to follow. People go to Theological school for years to understand the nuances of religious texts and rituals and it's possible for reasonable people in the same religion to disagree on interpretations.

CEP is a plucky band of mostly unbelievers. Where would we get the expertise to advise religious people how to be religious?

[AJL]

Aug 16, 2015 8:31:36 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I think if you're not going to participate in anything-- even while praying to the god you believe in-- then you're better off politely declining to accompany the friend. Because it would be far more disrespectful to A) sit there like it's a show for you to watch or B) look for things in the service that are sinful and blasphemous to what you believe.

Who is doing that? No one said they were doing that. Second, I find it bothersome that the assumption is to behave as if "when in Rome."  I think I'm misunderstanding what your problem is in this discussion. 

We frequently have youth confirmation classes from a variety of Christian denominations as well as the Muslim community attend Friday Shabbat services. OUR expectation is that they feel welcome and at ease in our congregation. Never is a guest required to participate in any aspect of the service. They don't need to sing or read the transliterated texts in our siddur. There is no reason for them to pray at all. They are welcome to watch the service even if it's like a show to them (which, in all honesty, it sometimes can feel like a show with the music.)

I've attended plenty of other religious services and never have I been asked to participate beyond my comfort level. I've never been questioned for my lack of participation and if I've ever offered an explanation in the course of conversation it was because I am not an adherent but a guest and I do not wish to do something that could be construed as against custom or sacrilegious. 

[Cicero]

I have a standing invitation to a friend's family's Seder. I've been known to go out of my way to get to NY for it even though I'm not Jewish because her family is fantastic and Passover is (now) one of my favorite holidays.

I think I actually posted over here about it before I went the first time way back at the beginning of the board because I didn't want to offend anyone by being there. The consensus was to not be a douche about it a la rvan's friend's FIL and enjoy. I'm so glad I went.

Participating in a Seder seems to be on a different level to me than actually bowing in a temple.

[hopecounts]

Aug 16, 2015 10:40:10 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I'm still hacked off about some of the replies in here.

"I can't even 'appear' to be going along with someone's beliefs" is as gross as when AW said she was afraid of being mistaken as Muslim because of her head covering.

Especially when you haven't bothered to learn about the traditions and are just assuming what they mean.

It's not a matter of not appearing to go along it's a matter of appearing to believe in something other than God.

I also assume someone of faith would understand since I would extend that understanding to someone of a different faith attending my Church for some reason and them not being comfortable  with participating in aspects of the service.

I respect their beliefs and have no problem with them observing my Church service in a way that they are comfortable with. 

Also to clarify I don't know how I'd feel about the ceremony in the OP, my Church isn't hardcore on the First Commandment to that extent but I also wouldn't want to minimize the importance of the ceremony by not giving it the reverence it deserves so I'd probably talk to whoever was hosting me before hand about it's spiritual meaning/importance and decide if I would feel disrespectful pretending to participate or more disrespectful quietly abstaining. 

[NewOrleans]

Aug 16, 2015 13:10:13 GMT -5 AJL said:

Aug 16, 2015 8:31:36 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I think if you're not going to participate in anything-- even while praying to the god you believe in-- then you're better off politely declining to accompany the friend. Because it would be far more disrespectful to A) sit there like it's a show for you to watch or B) look for things in the service that are sinful and blasphemous to what you believe.

Who is doing that? No one said they were doing that. Second, I find it bothersome that the assumption is to behave as if "when in Rome."  I think I'm misunderstanding what your problem is in this discussion. 

We frequently have youth confirmation classes from a variety of Christian denominations as well as the Muslim community attend Friday Shabbat services. OUR expectation is that they feel welcome and at ease in our congregation. Never is a guest required to participate in any aspect of the service. They don't need to sing or read the transliterated texts in our siddur. There is no reason for them to pray at all. They are welcome to watch the service even if it's like a show to them (which, in all honesty, it sometimes can feel like a show with the music.)

I've attended plenty of other religious services and never have I been asked to participate beyond my comfort level. I've never been questioned for my lack of participation and if I've ever offered an explanation in the course of conversation it was because I am not an adherent but a guest and I do not wish to do something that could be construed as against custom or sacrilegious. 

I'm talking specifically about Pamela. eta: and origami

[MrsAxilla]

Aug 16, 2015 3:46:17 GMT -5 bourbonfan said:

But I'd hate to think that my God, who created us all, would look down upon or punish those who's only real transgression was being born into a family that practices an entirely different religion. I mean, how fucked up would that be? "I sent you to be born to a tribal family in some small village in the Amazon, and because no Catholic missionary ever came to you and taught you that Catholism is the right religion, you're doomed to hell?" That's some messed up shit right there.

Honestly, this right here I what turned me of to Christianity way back in high school. The president of the Bible Club (yes, we had one, but they met off campus) was tellin me how awesome it was and how I should join. I was exploring spirituality and attended a few meetings. We get into a conversation and she INSISTED that ^^^^^^^ was exactly right. "Sucks to be you, Amazon child! Unless we Christians save them in time!" I just couldn't get on board with that. I haven't considered myself Christian since then, despite knowing not all denominations believe that (obvious there were other reasons, but that started the spiral),

[foundmylazybum]

Aug 16, 2015 3:46:17 GMT -5 bourbonfan said:

Aug 16, 2015 0:56:34 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

I'd like to think that God understands that, and that in reality, despite all of our differences in how we worship, we're all ultimately worshipping the same God. I know there will be many of you that disagree with that, and that's ok. But I'd hate to think that my God, who created us all, would look down upon or punish those who's only real transgression was being born into a family that practices an entirely different religion. I mean, how fucked up would that be? "I sent you to be born to a tribal family in some small village in the Amazon, and because no Catholic missionary ever came to you and taught you that Catholism is the right religion, you're doomed to hell?" That's some messed up shit right there.

[bourbonfan]

Aug 16, 2015 14:22:04 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Aug 16, 2015 3:46:17 GMT -5 bourbonfan said:

I'd like to think that God understands that, and that in reality, despite all of our differences in how we worship, we're all ultimately worshipping the same God. I know there will be many of you that disagree with that, and that's ok. But I'd hate to think that my God, who created us all, would look down upon or punish those who's only real transgression was being born into a family that practices an entirely different religion. I mean, how fucked up would that be? "I sent you to be born to a tribal family in some small village in the Amazon, and because no Catholic missionary ever came to you and taught you that Catholism is the right religion, you're doomed to hell?" That's some messed up shit right there.

There's 150 million tribal people located in 60 different countries. The children born into this tribes didn't have a choice and know nothing about Catholicism or Christianity. They may never know these things unless a missionary visits their tribe and successfully converts them.

If you believe that God is omnipotent and that all people are his children and created in his image, then it would stand to reason that he would be very aware of the fact that He created these tribal people who may never know His religion. So if you belong to a religion that believes that the only way to heaven is by accepting that specific religion and following its teachings and practices, then what does that imply about God and these people?

MrsAxilla, if you can explain this better, please do. Lol. I seem to be struggling here.

[sushi]

Cicero, I think your experience of participating in seder is an appropriate anaology. No one is asking us to bow or pray, just to perform some traditional things that are cultural/religious like offering food.

I'm trying to figure out the line of following without belief vs following out of respect and which is better. It really is situation and religion specific, though. That's why I ask. Especially as I'm an atheist.

[foundmylazybum]

Aug 16, 2015 15:38:46 GMT -5 bourbonfan said:

Aug 16, 2015 14:22:04 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

There's 150 million tribal people located in 60 different countries. The children born into this tribes didn't have a choice and know nothing about Catholicism or Christianity. They may never know these things unless a missionary visits their tribe and successfully converts them.

If you believe that God is omnipotent and that all people are his children and created in his image, then it would stand to reason that he would be very aware of the fact that He created these tribal people who may never know His religion. So if you belong to a religion that believes that the only way to heaven is by accepting that specific religion and following its teachings and practices, then what does that imply about God and these people?

MrsAxilla, if you can explain this better, please do. Lol. I seem to be struggling here.

Oh no, I understood the first time, and I was bothered, and the more you say, the more bothered I become--and the more I'm reminded why I moved away from religion.

[bourbonfan]

Aug 16, 2015 15:51:48 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Aug 16, 2015 15:38:46 GMT -5 bourbonfan said:

There's 150 million tribal people located in 60 different countries. The children born into this tribes didn't have a choice and know nothing about Catholicism or Christianity. They may never know these things unless a missionary visits their tribe and successfully converts them.

If you believe that God is omnipotent and that all people are his children and created in his image, then it would stand to reason that he would be very aware of the fact that He created these tribal people who may never know His religion. So if you belong to a religion that believes that the only way to heaven is by accepting that specific religion and following its teachings and practices, then what does that imply about God and these people?

MrsAxilla, if you can explain this better, please do. Lol. I seem to be struggling here.

Oh no, I understood the first time, and I was bothered, and the more you say, the more bothered I become--and the more I'm reminded why I moved away from religion.

Got it. I may have been enjoying a couple of cocktails or two last night when I posted this so I thought maybe it had come across as nonsense.

[Michelle]

Aug 16, 2015 13:03:44 GMT -5 LadySusan said:

I think we should cut the religious people some slack. Maybe start with the assumption that they are just trying to do their best. No one in these anecdotes has told anyone they are going to burn in hell or similar asshattery.

It's so much easier for agnostics and atheists to give no fucks. Religion is complicated. There are rules that people are supposed to follow. People go to Theological school for years to understand the nuances of religious texts and rituals and it's possible for reasonable people in the same religion to disagree on interpretations.

CEP is a plucky band of mostly unbelievers. Where would we get the expertise to advise religious people how to be religious?

thank you for this. Extremely empathetic on your part.

[karinothing]

Aug 16, 2015 3:46:17 GMT -5 bourbonfan said:

Aug 16, 2015 0:56:34 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

But a non Catholic wouldn't believe in your Corinthians quote. Are you saying you really believe something "bad" () would happen to a non Catholic taking communion? Like what?

Obviously this answer is going to differ based on the person answering, but to me this is where religion gets tricky. I would like to think that the God we believe in would understand that this person taking communion doesn't know any better.

But I also have an issue with the idea of one God being the "right" one. I mean, let's be honest here, what religion you are (unless you're a convert) is more than likely a result of who your parents are and what community you were born into. You're not necessarily taught all religions as a child and then given the option to choose. You could have just as easily been born into a family of an entirely different religion and would believe an entirely different God is the real deal. So how do you know? It all falls into your faith, but as sure as you are that your God is THE God, someone else is just as sure that you're wrong. As strong as your faith is, someone else also has a strong faith in something different.

I'd like to think that God understands that, and that in reality, despite all of our differences in how we worship, we're all ultimately worshipping the same God. I know there will be many of you that disagree with that, and that's ok. But I'd hate to think that my God, who created us all, would look down upon or punish those who's only real transgression was being born into a family that practices an entirely different religion. I mean, how fucked up would that be? "I sent you to be born to a tribal family in some small village in the Amazon, and because no Catholic missionary ever came to you and taught you that Catholism is the right religion, you're doomed to hell?" That's some messed up shit right there.

Well catholics don't belive that the only way to salvation is through Jesus or catholicism. They also belive it would be messed up to deny people heaven due to lack of exposure.

[jeaniebueller]

Aug 15, 2015 18:11:52 GMT -5 jln said:

As an atheist I would have no problem bowing to clergy or any idol. I don't believe in any of it, but I'm very respectful of other's beliefs. DS1 goes to a church school and I'll bow my head during prayer.

And as an atheist, I generally don't bow my head. I will sit there quietly but will not pretend to pray or actively participate in any religious ceremony. Its interesting to hear how everyone handles this issue differently.

[msmerymac]

Aug 14, 2015 23:16:26 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I generally dont kneel if I attend a Catholic Church service. I also don't take communion.

I will only take communion at a Presbyterian church which is the tradition in which I was raised.

All Main Line Protestant denominations have open communion with each other. So you could also take communion at a Methodist Church, for example. It's the same belief when it comes to communion in those denominations.

And all protestant churches I've been to also invite anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior to partake in communion if they'd like, which would include Catholics or Evangelical denominations, although the particular faith of those people (like Catholics believing in transubstantiation vs. symbolic communion) might prohibit them from doing so. 

[hopecounts]

Aug 17, 2015 8:06:41 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Aug 15, 2015 18:11:52 GMT -5 jln said:

As an atheist I would have no problem bowing to clergy or any idol. I don't believe in any of it, but I'm very respectful of other's beliefs. DS1 goes to a church school and I'll bow my head during prayer.

And as an atheist, I generally don't bow my head. I will sit there quietly but will not pretend to pray or actively participate in any religious ceremony. Its interesting to hear how everyone handles this issue differently.

As a Christian I would find either of this perfectly acceptable and wouldn't be bothered by either of them if I happened to notice someone doing either at Church/Service, doubt I would since I'm praying BUT if I did I wouldn't be bothered by either. 

[hopecounts]

Aug 17, 2015 10:07:33 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Aug 14, 2015 23:16:26 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I generally dont kneel if I attend a Catholic Church service. I also don't take communion.

I will only take communion at a Presbyterian church which is the tradition in which I was raised.

All Main Line Protestant denominations have open communion with each other. So you could also take communion at a Methodist Church, for example. It's the same belief when it comes to communion in those denominations.

And all protestant churches I've been to also invite anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior to partake in communion if they'd like, which would include Catholics or Evangelical denominations, although the particular faith of those people (like Catholics believing in transubstantiation vs. symbolic communion) might prohibit them from doing so. 

Not so for Southern Baptists you are only to participate in The Lord's Supper if you have been baptized. So if you believe but haven't been you are supposed to abstain. 
Brought to you by quite a few years of doing so, though no one would be scandalized if you did it's just not encouraged and having no clue what to do the first time I went to a Methodist service with my BFF in 2nd grade. . 

[msmerymac]

Aug 17, 2015 10:11:00 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

Aug 17, 2015 10:07:33 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

All Main Line Protestant denominations have open communion with each other. So you could also take communion at a Methodist Church, for example. It's the same belief when it comes to communion in those denominations.

And all protestant churches I've been to also invite anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior to partake in communion if they'd like, which would include Catholics or Evangelical denominations, although the particular faith of those people (like Catholics believing in transubstantiation vs. symbolic communion) might prohibit them from doing so. 

Not so for Southern Baptists you are only to participate in The Lord's Supper if you have been baptized. So if you believe but haven't been you are supposed to abstain. 
Brought to you by quite a few years of doing so, though no one would be scandalized if you did it's just not encouraged and having no clue what to do the first time I went to a Methodist service with my BFF in 2nd grade. . 

Yes, I do think many churches practicing open communion, such as the Episcopalian Church, require baptism. But not all.

[LoveTrains]

Aug 17, 2015 10:07:33 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Aug 14, 2015 23:16:26 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I generally dont kneel if I attend a Catholic Church service. I also don't take communion.

I will only take communion at a Presbyterian church which is the tradition in which I was raised.

All Main Line Protestant denominations have open communion with each other. So you could also take communion at a Methodist Church, for example. It's the same belief when it comes to communion in those denominations.

And all protestant churches I've been to also invite anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior to partake in communion if they'd like, which would include Catholics or Evangelical denominations, although the particular faith of those people (like Catholics believing in transubstantiation vs. symbolic communion) might prohibit them from doing so. 

I personally don't feel comfortable even though they may welcome me.

[Michelle]

Aug 15, 2015 16:41:38 GMT -5 sushi said:

Aug 15, 2015 8:52:44 GMT -5 pamela said:

I would not appear to pray to him. Someone else mentioned it up thread. While in my heart I could always pray, I also always have to bear witness so even appearing to pray to another god is contrary to that.

In this particular situation, it wasn't actually a prayer. It was a traditional thing of pouring water in front of a monk. The symbolism is that you're honoring ancestors, but it's not like a Catholic communion where they have a literal belief in that. Does that change anything for you?

My beliefs are pretty much in line with Pamela's in this thread so far so I'll answer this from my perspective.

I would pour water, drink tea, and perform other traditional acts that show reference to but not worship of ancestors.

Lighting incense, placing food or other offerings in front of statues like a sacrifice, etc. or bowing in front of those statues, pictures, etc. are not things I will do.

The reason is based in the Old Covenant (Old Testament) and New Covenant under Jesus (New Testament):

OLD TESTAMENT:

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6 “You shall not murder.

7 “You shall not commit adultery.

8 “You shall not steal.

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

NEW TESTAMENT
Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV)



36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”



37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

We are taught the most important of our God's laws is to put Him above everything else. And to pay reference to another god is a sin against the most important of His laws.




That is why Pamela said she can't even appear to be worshipping another god. It would be a serious sin to do so.

Also, you don't always know what you are being invited to when you have friends of many cultures and backgrounds. If you are open to lots of experiences and don't ask a bunch of questions you might find yourself in front of a religious ceremony where you have to walk the fine line of being respectful to your host and not committing a grave sin. Not committing the grave sin is pretty much the bigger deal, no matter what (and then you would know to ask more questions of that friend and others of that faith in the future).