I mean this in a genuine sense. If you invite a friend to participate in worship, without the attempt to convert, just to share culture, what would and would not cause offense?
To give a setting, I'm studying a language where the vast majority of speakers are of one religion (Buddhist, so not dogmatic at all). So, that religion and their culture are somewhat inseparable. To understand the people you have to understand the religion. Somewhat similar to understanding the influence of Christianity on America. We are often invited and welcomed to religious events. We are not expected to believe, but we are encouraged to participate.
This is not a problem for us atheists as our participation is solely for things like feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, things we also believe in, and they don't have a problem with disbelief in a god anyway. We don't bow to their idols, but we do bow to their clergy, as a sign of respect their position holds in that culture. Another in our program refuses to participate in any b/c he's a conservative Christian. He wouldn't participate in a water pouring ceremony intended to honor ancestors. That objection... I don't understand. Even if he thinks their water isn't holy, he could still use that time to pray to his god for the same goals. Similarly, there were chants/prayers for the sick, ill, hungry, etc. things we support and will respectfully acknowledge even if we don't believe our thoughts make for divine intervention. It's still a great encouragement.
Anyway, tl;dr, is it worse to participate in the motions of religion without belief, as a respect to culture, or is it worse to observe from the corner?
I realize this will have many answers. Don't take catholic communion, for instance. But if someone doesn't know that's bad (like someone from another country unfamiliar with the belief)? Should people attempt to sing hymns, say chants, turn and welcome Shabbath without belief or understanding? If someone commits an actually offensive act but in true ignorance, how would you feel?
I'm thinking the best American analogy is inviting a friend for Passover. Share in the tradition, culture, which is religiously inspired, but if the youngest male reads and screws up the Hebrew, few are going to be horrified. I'm not sure Christians have anything similar?
I can only think of the example you gave: communion at a Catholic church. I'm an atheist so the only times I've been to a church service (besides for a wedding) were with my friends and boyfriend when I was on vacation with their families. Both times their parents told me multiple times "DO NOT TAKE COMMUNION". So I took hat to mean that even it it was a mistake they'd be pretty upset.
Not so sure that an Orthodox Jewish family would be so welcoming of a mistake like that but they would probably talk your ear off beforehand anyway so the mistake wouldn't happen.
I don't really get why people don't take part in other religious ceremonies, if invited by friends. But I'm coming at it from an atheist perspective. I can see it as culturally and socially important to my friend, but I don't feel like I have a soul that I'm putting in danger by taking part.
I personally as a Christian would not have participated or bowed to any idol. To clergy as a greeting, ok. But I would not chant or partake in a ritual that is not in line with my belief.
As for others' participation in mine, I don't like those who don't believe but go through the motions/just recite the words. Just stand/sit quietly.
Post by sporklemotion on Aug 14, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5
I'm not religious, but I was raised with lots of Jewish traditions. I doubt people would be offended if someone acts out of ignorance, but there are things I would say are not appropriate.
To me, there is a difference between going along with a service or partaking in a traditional meal, and in saying prayers to God. In Jewish tradition, the prayers that start with "Baruch atah..." (Blessed are you, God) are more direct than some of the songs. In general, I would find it odd for someone not of a faith to say "Amen" to a prayer, since to me, that implies agreement or devotion.
The only thing that would give me pause (not offense), would be someone doing the prayers that are explicitly for certain situations and people. There is a mourner's prayer that only people who are officially in mourning or who are commemorating the anniversary of a loss say. It's not offensive, but it's not something that you say to show respect or solidarity. I might also find it odd for someone to observe the fasts or dietary restrictions associated with holidays-- to me, that goes beyond the kind of participation that makes sense.
These are just my thoughts, but again, I'm not religious and wouldn't really get offended unless someone deliberately violates these things by stepping on the Torah or something.
I'm not religious, but I was raised with lots of Jewish traditions. I doubt people would be offended if someone acts out of ignorance, but there are things I would say are not appropriate.
To me, there is a difference between going along with a service or partaking in a traditional meal, and in saying prayers to God. In Jewish tradition, the prayers that start with "Baruch atah..." (Blessed are you, God) are more direct than some of the songs. In general, I would find it odd for someone not of a faith to say "Amen" to a prayer, since to me, that implies agreement or devotion.
The only thing that would give me pause (not offense), would be someone doing the prayers that are explicitly for certain situations and people. There is a mourner's prayer that only people who are officially in mourning or who are commemorating the anniversary of a loss say. It's not offensive, but it's not something that you say to show respect or solidarity. I might also find it odd for someone to observe the fasts or dietary restrictions associated with holidays-- to me, that goes beyond the kind of participation that makes sense.
These are just my thoughts, but again, I'm not religious and wouldn't really get offended unless someone deliberately violates these things by stepping on the Torah or something.
Interesting..... As a convert, I understand some things in an academic way, rather than maybe some of the nuances. For example, on Yom Kippur, the reason (or so I was taught) that all Jews recite the same prayers is because our collective voices carry more "power" than a single voice on this most serious of holidays. Some thing with the Kaddish (Jewish prayer for the dead, for those who don't know). If a non-Jew was participating in something thing like this, I wouldn't care whether that person chose to add her voice to the collective and chant along or abstained. As far as I know (acknowledging I may be mistaken) this isn't reserved for Jews alone, like the Catholic Communion. You can chant prayers for Jewish dead, or for Buddist ancestors, out of respect and deference to the religious ceremony you're a part of without believing. Or not. So, in sum, just don't be a dick and do what you feel comfortable with.
This is interesting. I have been to a Catholic service. Didn't take communion. No one said not to do it just seemed wrong. Not my church/religion. I have been to invited to a Passover meal and I did read a passage but not in Hebrew obv. I was asked to do it otherwise I wouldn't have just butted all in and started reading. I would hope I would not ever do anything to offend someone but if I did I can only hope they would accept my apology.
At Passover, everyone participates in telling the story, even non-Jews.
ETA: it's part of the celebration. "Hey! Did you know Jews aren't slaves anymore?!? Sit back on your comfy cushions, have some wine and a delicious meal and participate in telling the story of how we were freed from slavery so the children present don't forget!"
From visiting other religious services, I have participated as far as I am comfortable and in line with what is allowed by my hosts, even though I am Jewish. In a Catholic mass, I clearly would never take communion. I also don't kneel. I will stand up when everyone else is asked to, but when I others kneel, I stay in my seat quietly and listen.
I don't speak or pray during non-Jewish prayers in other religions. I listen and am quiet, but that's as far as I'll go.
I would never bow to an idol or pray to my ancestors in a religion in which that is a prominent component of the practice.
If you were to visit Friday night Shabbat services with me, I would expect you to participate as much or as little as you wish. Nothing in Judaism (even in Orthodoxy) prohibits a guest from participating in the music, the prayers, the experience of Shabbat. You would be expected to observe the customs of the community in which you are joining in prayer. Jews don't all pray the same way or chant or sing the same way. The words may be the same, but the tunes and order may be different. It is more frustrating for me to visit another Jewish congregation and not know where certain prayers are said during the service or to be got off guard by the tune being used to sing a common song, etc. than it is for me to be an observer in someone else's religious event.
Almost all Jewish holidays are celebrations (except Yom Kippur and Tisha b'Av). I don't see why a non-Jew wouldn't be welcome to participate fully in those observances.
I don't like Christians co-opting Jewish holidays though and the insertion of Jesus into the traditional Passover seder is extremely offensive to me and many Jews.
Maybe it's the youngest male, not just the youngest, that does the reading (although I really was taught it was a male thing) in both case. Regardless, in our particular situation, years ago at passover, H had to do all the reading for being the youngest, male or female. It amused us all.
Maybe it's the youngest male, not just the youngest, that does the reading (although I really was taught it was a male thing) in both case. Regardless, in our particular situation, years ago at passover, H had to do all the reading for being the youngest, male or female. It amused us all.
This is categorically wrong across all movements in Judaism. It is the youngest child, regardless of sex, who asks the four questions. That is per the Talmud. That doesn't mean that there aren't particular communities where the minhag (custom) is for the youngest male to ask the question. However, that would not be in keeping with our teachings. And if there is no child, than an adult can ask them. And if you are doing the seder alone, than you ask them yourself out loud. However, they must be asked.
Maybe it's the youngest male, not just the youngest, that does the reading (although I really was taught it was a male thing) in both case. Regardless, in our particular situation, years ago at passover, H had to do all the reading for being the youngest, male or female. It amused us all.
This is categorically wrong across all movements in Judaism. It is the youngest child, regardless of sex, who asks the four questions. That is per the Talmud. That doesn't mean that there aren't particular communities where the minhag (custom) is for the youngest male to ask the question. However, that would not be in keeping with our teachings. And if there is no child, than an adult can ask them. And if you are doing the seder alone, than you ask them yourself out loud. However, they must be asked.
Isn't it the youngest Jew? I've actually never been to a Seder where the youngest person wasn't Jewish, so I don't know.
I don't think anyone should be obligated to participate in a religious ceremony if he/she didn't want to. Stand/Sit there and be respectful, yes. But actively doing something? That's up to each individual and I can definitely see why someone would not choose to participate. Even though in your mind you can say "I dont believe this, I'm just doing it to be nice," to an onlooker, it appears as though you believe in it. That's a problem for many religious people.
Christian family members on my side of the family don't participate at all in religious ceremonies from other religions. I think it stems from the commandment, "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me." I'm guessing that they interpret it to mean that it's best to err on the side of not participating, even if there are not other gods or idols involved.
My DH's Catholic family members are big hippies who believe that Good Works are Good Works and participate in some Hindu ceremonies.
Personally, assuming you're going with someone of that faith, I would just ask the person ahead of time. I don't mind going along with the motions if that's what's asked of me, but if I did mind, I would express that prior to going. That way the person I'm going with can let me know if my actions or lack of actions would be rude.
Now if I were going alone, I'd probably research it ahead of time and maybe just watch from a back corner somewhere.
As a Catholic, other than Communion, I wouldn't care if you sat there the whole time or if you did the kneeling, standing or whatever.
This is interesting. I have been to a Catholic service. Didn't take communion. No one said not to do it just seemed wrong. Not my church/religion. I have been to invited to a Passover meal and I did read a passage but not in Hebrew obv. I was asked to do it otherwise I wouldn't have just butted all in and started reading. I would hope I would not ever do anything to offend someone but if I did I can only hope they would accept my apology.
At Passover, everyone participates in telling the story, even non-Jews.
ETA: it's part of the celebration. "Hey! Did you know Jews aren't slaves anymore?!? Sit back on your comfy cushions, have some wine and a delicious meal and participate in telling the story of how we were freed from slavery so the children present don't forget!"
But maneshvitx is gross! And I know my phone Butcher that
I personally as a Christian would not have participated or bowed to any idol. To clergy as a greeting, ok. But I would not chant or partake in a ritual that is not in line with my belief.
As for others' participation in mine, I don't like those who don't believe but go through the motions/just recite the words. Just stand/sit quietly.
Thank you for your response.
I don't expect someone to bow to an idol. I fully understand that. I do though think that it's ok to perform a small ceremony that is cultural while praying to your own belief. like if someone asked you to pray to Buddha to end world hunger,you might agree but address it to your god. Would that bother you?
This is interesting. I have been to a Catholic service. Didn't take communion. No one said not to do it just seemed wrong. Not my church/religion. I have been to invited to a Passover meal and I did read a passage but not in Hebrew obv. I was asked to do it otherwise I wouldn't have just butted all in and started reading. I would hope I would not ever do anything to offend someone but if I did I can only hope they would accept my apology.
In the Catholic Church, you cannot take communion if you have not prepared for the sacrament of 1st Communion. (Preparing includes the sacrament of reconciliation, which is also called confession). Kids generally take their first communion in 2nd grade. If my first grader walked through the communion line and took the host, I would be horrified because he knows better. If you, a non-catholic, we're my guest and unknowingly took communion, I wouldn'the bat an eye. You don'the know what you don'the know.
I personally as a Christian would not have participated or bowed to any idol. To clergy as a greeting, ok. But I would not chant or partake in a ritual that is not in line with my belief.
As for others' participation in mine, I don't like those who don't believe but go through the motions/just recite the words. Just stand/sit quietly.
Thank you for your response.
I don't expect someone to bow to an idol. I fully understand that. I do though think that it's ok to perform a small ceremony that is cultural while praying to your own belief. like if someone asked you to pray to Buddha to end world hunger,you might agree but address it to your god. Would that bother you?
Depends on the specifics of the Church the person is from. Some would feel that even the appearance of praying to another God/Idol would be breaking the first commandment (it's the first for a reason) and would be very uncomfortable doing that. Others would be more God hears you it's OK. Since you said conservative Christian I'd bet they are from a Church that feels more strongly about this.
Most of my religious experience as a nonreligious person has been attending Catholic services. I would stand and sit when others do, but don't kneel. I don't take communion (I'm not baptised). I usually recite most of the group responses in the program but don't say the apostles creed (I think that's what it's called - where everyone states their belief in God and the church) since it's not something that I believe.
I currently work in a children's nursery at a (non-Catholic) church. The kids are upstairs for about 15 minutes of the service before I bring them down to the nursery - prayer, a few songs, and a reading with response. I fully participate in all of these things since I feel it's part of my job to help the kids and help them participate to the extent at which they are able.
This is interesting. I have been to a Catholic service. Didn't take communion. No one said not to do it just seemed wrong. Not my church/religion. I have been to invited to a Passover meal and I did read a passage but not in Hebrew obv. I was asked to do it otherwise I wouldn't have just butted all in and started reading. I would hope I would not ever do anything to offend someone but if I did I can only hope they would accept my apology.
In the Catholic Church, you cannot take communion if you have not prepared for the sacrament of 1st Communion. (Preparing includes the sacrament of reconciliation, which is also called confession). Kids generally take their first communion in 2nd grade. If my first grader walked through the communion line and took the host, I would be horrified because he knows better. If you, a non-catholic, we're my guest and unknowingly took communion, I wouldn'the bat an eye. You don'the know what you don'the know.
Most Missals have what to do during Communion for all in them so I think it is something most assume people will know or read.
The only things I know that one should never do is to take Communion during Mass as a non-Catholic and to walk in front of someone who is making salat (even outside of a mosque/masjid).
I personally as a Christian would not have participated or bowed to any idol. To clergy as a greeting, ok. But I would not chant or partake in a ritual that is not in line with my belief.
As for others' participation in mine, I don't like those who don't believe but go through the motions/just recite the words. Just stand/sit quietly.
Thank you for your response.
I don't expect someone to bow to an idol. I fully understand that. I do though think that it's ok to perform a small ceremony that is cultural while praying to your own belief. like if someone asked you to pray to Buddha to end world hunger,you might agree but address it to your god. Would that bother you?
I would not appear to pray to him. Someone else mentioned it up thread. While in my heart I could always pray, I also always have to bear witness so even appearing to pray to another god is contrary to that.
This is interesting. I have been to a Catholic service. Didn't take communion. No one said not to do it just seemed wrong. Not my church/religion. I have been to invited to a Passover meal and I did read a passage but not in Hebrew obv. I was asked to do it otherwise I wouldn't have just butted all in and started reading. I would hope I would not ever do anything to offend someone but if I did I can only hope they would accept my apology.
In the Catholic Church, you cannot take communion if you have not prepared for the sacrament of 1st Communion. (Preparing includes the sacrament of reconciliation, which is also called confession). Kids generally take their first communion in 2nd grade. If my first grader walked through the communion line and took the host, I would be horrified because he knows better. If you, a non-catholic, we're my guest and unknowingly took communion, I wouldn'the bat an eye. You don'the know what you don'the know.
And the reason this is different from other Christian denominations is that Catholics believe it is actually the body of Christ, not a symbol. So if you are not in the right state or accept it for what it is, it would bring more harm to you than good.
"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." 1 Cor 11:27-29
So Catholics should guard Non-Catholics from doing that.
I don't expect someone to bow to an idol. I fully understand that. I do though think that it's ok to perform a small ceremony that is cultural while praying to your own belief. like if someone asked you to pray to Buddha to end world hunger,you might agree but address it to your god. Would that bother you?
I would not appear to pray to him. Someone else mentioned it up thread. While in my heart I could always pray, I also always have to bear witness so even appearing to pray to another god is contrary to that.
Interesting..... As a convert, I understand some things in an academic way, rather than maybe some of the nuances. For example, on Yom Kippur, the reason (or so I was taught) that all Jews recite the same prayers is because our collective voices carry more "power" than a single voice on this most serious of holidays. Some thing with the Kaddish (Jewish prayer for the dead, for those who don't know). If a non-Jew was participating in something thing like this, I wouldn't care whether that person chose to add her voice to the collective and chant along or abstained. As far as I know (acknowledging I may be mistaken) this isn't reserved for Jews alone, like the Catholic Communion. You can chant prayers for Jewish dead, or for Buddist ancestors, out of respect and deference to the religious ceremony you're a part of without believing. Or not. So, in sum, just don't be a dick and do what you feel comfortable with.
I agree that the bottom line is don't be dick, either as the visitor or the host. So this is really just academic for me.
I think it's different in different denominations and maybe even among congregations, but I see the Mourner's Kaddish a little differently than you describe. I was taught that Jewish mourning traditions aren't just about what you have to do, but when you move on. For example, you mourn for a spouse or parent for eleven months, because at a year it's time to move on. I think a sibling is shorter, like a month or so? And then you commemorate the anniversary by saying it annually.
Saying Kaddish is one of the steps in working through grief, so I always thought that it was reserved for those who "should" be saying it, and once it's time to move on, you move on.
Kaddish on Yom Kippur is different, because everyone says it on that day (and a few other holidays), because everyone would have someone to remember and it's more about the community.
However, MrsAxilla, as a convert you have probably studied this more recently and more carefully than I, so I may be wrong.
At Passover, everyone participates in telling the story, even non-Jews.
ETA: it's part of the celebration. "Hey! Did you know Jews aren't slaves anymore?!? Sit back on your comfy cushions, have some wine and a delicious meal and participate in telling the story of how we were freed from slavery so the children present don't forget!"
But maneshvitx is gross! And I know my phone Butcher that
I don't expect someone to bow to an idol. I fully understand that. I do though think that it's ok to perform a small ceremony that is cultural while praying to your own belief. like if someone asked you to pray to Buddha to end world hunger,you might agree but address it to your god. Would that bother you?
I would not appear to pray to him. Someone else mentioned it up thread. While in my heart I could always pray, I also always have to bear witness so even appearing to pray to another god is contrary to that.
In this particular situation, it wasn't actually a prayer. It was a traditional thing of pouring water in front of a monk. The symbolism is that you're honoring ancestors, but it's not like a Catholic communion where they have a literal belief in that. Does that change anything for you?
I would not appear to pray to him. Someone else mentioned it up thread. While in my heart I could always pray, I also always have to bear witness so even appearing to pray to another god is contrary to that.
In this particular situation, it wasn't actually a prayer. It was a traditional thing of pouring water in front of a monk. The symbolism is that you're honoring ancestors, but it's not like a Catholic communion where they have a literal belief in that. Does that change anything for you?
I know that this question was not directed at me but does anyone know if is there a big distinction between ancestor veneration and ancestor worship?
As an atheist I would have no problem bowing to clergy or any idol. I don't believe in any of it, but I'm very respectful of other's beliefs. DS1 goes to a church school and I'll bow my head during prayer.
I would not appear to pray to him. Someone else mentioned it up thread. While in my heart I could always pray, I also always have to bear witness so even appearing to pray to another god is contrary to that.
In this particular situation, it wasn't actually a prayer. It was a traditional thing of pouring water in front of a monk. The symbolism is that you're honoring ancestors, but it's not like a Catholic communion where they have a literal belief in that. Does that change anything for you?
I hope I would know more about what it really is, like the other poster, it feels like ancestor worship, but that could be my misunderstanding. If it was more akin to a dia de los meurtos 'alter' thing, maybe. (Although I think some people take that close to idol/worship territory)