@ Why School Should Start Later

[orangeblossom]

I know it's not an easy fix, but something needs to be done.  You can't have kids do hours upon hours of homework, participate in extracurricular activities, get eight hours or more of sleep AND be at school by 0'dark thirty, and expect them to be alert and thriving. You can't have it all.  Sure, kids adjust and they make do, but, I just don't understand starting school before 8, let alone 7:30


www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/08/why-school-should-start-later/401489/


For the first time, the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is urging education policymakers to start middle- and high-school classes later in the morning. The idea is to improve the odds of adolescents getting sufficient sleep so they can thrive both physically and academically.



The CDC’s recommendations come a year after the American Academy of Pediatrics urged schools to adjust start times so more kids would get the recommended 8.5 to 9.5 hours of nightly rest. Both the CDC and the pediatricians’ group cited significant risks that come with lack of sleep, including higher rates of obesity and depression and motor-vehicle accidents among teens as well as an overall lower quality of life.



“Getting enough sleep is important for students’ health, safety, and academic performance,” Anne Wheaton, the lead author and epidemiologist in the CDC’s Division of Population Health, said in a statement. “Early school start times, however, are preventing many adolescents from getting the sleep they need.”



“Everybody learns better when they’re awake.”

In more than 40 states, at least 75 percent of public schools start earlier than 8:30 a.m., according to the CDC’s report. And while later start times won’t replace other important interventions—like parents making sure their children get enough rest—schools clearly play an important role in students’ daily schedules, the report concluded.



While the federal recommendation is making headlines, the data on the potential risks of chronically tired adolescents isn’t new information. Indeed, the research has been accumulating steadily for years, including some recent large-scale studies.





As the Minneapolis Star-Tribune reported in April, the University of Minnesota’s Center for Applied Research and Educational Improvement “finally put to rest the long-standing question of whether later start times correlate to increased academic performance for high-school students”:



Researchers analyzed data from more than 9,000 students at eight high schools in Minnesota, Colorado, and Wyoming and found that shifting the school day later in the morning resulted in a boost in attendance, test scores, and grades in math, English, science, and social studies. Schools also saw a decrease in tardiness, substance abuse, and symptoms of depression. Some even had a dramatic drop in teen car crashes.


Here’s what the research shows: Adolescents’ “internal clocks”—the circadian rhythms that control a human’s responses to stimuli and determine sleep patterns—operate differently than those of other age groups. It’s typically more difficult for adolescents to fall asleep earlier in the evening than it is for other age demographics. And while teenagers are going to bed later, their school start times are often becoming earlier as they advance through middle and high school.



In a landmark study in 1998 of adolescent sleeping habits, the Brown University researcher Mary Carskadon followed 10th-graders who were making the switch to a 7:20 a.m. start time, about an hour earlier than their schedule as ninth-graders. Despite the new schedule, the students went to bed at about the same time as they did the year before: 10:40 p.m. on average.



The students bordered on “pathologically sleepy.”

Carskadon’s team found that students showed up for morning classes seriously sleep-deprived and that the 7:20 a.m. start time required them to be awake during hours that ran contrary to their internal clocks. Fewer than half of the 10th-graders averaged even seven hours of sleep each night, which is already below the recommended amount. Indeed, Carskadon’s team concluded the students bordered on “pathologically sleepy.”





So, if the science is so strong, what’s getting in the way of changing the policy?



Carskadon, a professor of psychiatry and human behavior, notes that passionate arguments abound on both sides of the debate—just about all of which she’s heard over the years. In some districts, the start times are largely dictated by local transportation companies, with school boards and superintendents contending they lack the funds or authority to change things. Meanwhile, parents are often reluctant to have teens start later, whether because they rely on having older children at home in the afternoons to take care of younger siblings or because they’re concerned that it will interfere with extracurricular opportunities. Indeed, there’s always a vocal chorus warning that later start times will hurt high-school sports.



But none of those worries override the reality that, as Carskadon put it, “everybody learns better when they’re awake.”



Implementing later start times can be feasible without causing major disruptions, as many school districts have demonstrated, Carskadon said. But it requires that all stakeholders commit to what’s often a time-consuming process of finding creative solutions, which, she added, isn’t always easy.



The medical writer and mother of three Terra Ziporyn Snider, who’s emerged as a national advocate for later start times, also cited widespread challenges hindering schools from making the switch. Getting school systems to change takes more than just presenting scientific evidence, said Snider, the co-founder and executive director of the nonprofit advocacy group Start School Later. The organization deploys volunteers to communities that are considering later school start times to bolster grassroots efforts.





“Social norms are at the root of this problem—most people don’t take [adolescent sleep deprivation] seriously and don’t see it as a public-health issue,” Snider said. “That kind of thinking has to change.”



“The real obstacles are failure of imagination.”

One of the problems facing advocates of later school start times is that the people sympathetic to their cause seldom have the authority to reset the academic clock, Snider said. Parents typically only care about the issue when it affects their own families’ schedules, she said. That means roughly every four years the key players are replaced, and the grassroots efforts have to start from scratch.



“You start talking about changing start times, and people immediately jump to [all kinds of conclusions]. Teens will miss out on sports. Little kids will go to school in the dark and get run over by a car. What will happen to my child care?” Snider said. “A lot of these fears and speculations turn out to be red herrings. The real obstacles are failure of imagination.”



Snider is hopeful that the policy pressures are reaching a tipping point, though, with the help of major voices like the CDC weighing in.



“It’s becoming increasingly embarrassing to say, ‘If we start school later, what happens to my kid’s three-hour soccer practice?’” Snider said. “We have to convince school systems this has to happen for the health of kids. It’s not a negotiable school budget item—it’s an absolute requirement.”

[tacosforlife]

I really REALLY hate the argument that there is insufficient time for extracurriculars if the school day starts later. Homework and extra-curricular activities should be taking the same amount of time regardless of when school starts. Students should still have enough time in the day to get sufficient sleep. The problem with early start times is that teenagers bodies are not, for the most part, wired for that.

I know we've talked about this before, but it is a hill I am willing to die on.

[chedifuen]

About 10 years ago, our district switched the start times of the elementary and high schools, previously high school started at 7:30 and elementary school was either 8:30 or 8:45. They are now reversed and it's helped to improve attendance. I guess the theory was the younger kids needed mom and dad at home to ensure they got to school on time and that by moving the start time to before working hours more kids would arrive on time. But, it does mean we're waiting for the bus in the dark much of the school year and my kids absolutely need to be asleep by 8:30 in order to get 10 hours in.

[tacosforlife]

Aug 18, 2015 13:06:15 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

About 10 years ago, our district switched the start times of the elementary and high schools, previously high school started at 7:30 and elementary school was either 8:30 or 8:45. They are now reversed and it's helped to improve attendance. I guess the theory was the younger kids needed mom and dad at home to ensure they got to school on time and that by moving the start time to before working hours more kids would arrive on time. But, it does mean we're waiting for the bus in the dark much of the school year and my kids absolutely need to be asleep by 8:30 in order to get 10 hours in.

It's also that little kids, especially in the first half of elementary school, tend to be earlier risers. Think of all the posts you see here where people are like, "OMG, my five-year-old has been up since 6 this morning! I just want to sleep in!"

Nobody has ever said that about a 15-year-old. LOL.

[ttt]

I just love how the evidence of early start times increasing obesity, triggering depression and leading to more car crashes and fatalities are only a minor consideration but OH MY GOD THE TEST SCORES!! is what really convinced school administrators that there is a real problem.

[eclaires]

Our middle and high schools start at 8:45, but k-5 start at 7:45. It sucks for k-5, but esp so for 3rd & up, because a lot of 3rd graders do have extracurricular activities and homework and they need more sleep. It especially sucks because the bus comes before 7am. If I drive my kids, I don't have to get them up until 6:45/7, so of course, I drive them. They need their sleep - and they go to bed early. They are in bed by 8 if we don't have something going on, but now that Jackson has football, M/W, we don't get home until 8:30 (or later). So far, they are doing okay adjusting, but I still hate it.

[chedifuen]

Aug 18, 2015 13:10:01 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Aug 18, 2015 13:06:15 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

About 10 years ago, our district switched the start times of the elementary and high schools, previously high school started at 7:30 and elementary school was either 8:30 or 8:45. They are now reversed and it's helped to improve attendance. I guess the theory was the younger kids needed mom and dad at home to ensure they got to school on time and that by moving the start time to before working hours more kids would arrive on time. But, it does mean we're waiting for the bus in the dark much of the school year and my kids absolutely need to be asleep by 8:30 in order to get 10 hours in.

It's also that little kids, especially in the first half of elementary school, tend to be earlier risers. Think of all the posts you see here where people are like, "OMG, my five-year-old has been up since 6 this morning! I just want to sleep in!"

Nobody has ever said that about a 15-year-old. LOL.

Absolutely! I think it makes a lot of sense to to it this way and I'm personally a big fan because the kids are gone before my work day starts. The little shits are up by 6:30 every day anyway, might as well go to school. 

[ttt]

As for anecdotes, my high school began at 7 am, and I hated hated hated it. So did the teachers. Nobody was ever functional during first period, and usually only at about 50% during second period too.

But god forbid you do anything to interfere with football practice, which as everyone knows, is the *real* reason for high schools existing.

[tacosforlife]

Aug 18, 2015 13:28:35 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

I worked throughout high school but only when I wasnt doing a sport. I admit it would have been tricky if I were doing a sport but the schools that get out at 2 or 215 are still having kids in sports until 430 or 5 or later so it seems like that would be an issue either way. 

This is the thing - it is. Starting early doesn't magically increase the number of hours in the day.

If you are in school for 7 hours per day (I know this varies, but that seems fairly common), have 2 hours' worth of extra-curricular activities, and have 2 hours' worth of homework, you're at 11 hours of the day. Figure in .5-1 hour for transportation to and from these things, and 1-2 hours for getting ready in the morning, eating dinner, and getting ready for bed, and you're at 12.5-14 hours of the day. Assuming that one sleeps for 8 hours per night, which is really the absolute minimum teenagers should be getting, and you're left with somewhere between 2 and 3.5 hours of the day. The only way to fit much else in there is to sacrifice sleep, and starting school at 7 or 7:30 in the morning won't change that.

[penguingrrl]

I think everyone should start a little later. Maybe it's my not-a-morning-person-and-not-parent-of-morning-peopleness showing but I find 7:30 or 8 too early no matter the age. My kids struggle during the school year. We put them to bed between 7:30 and 8, lights out at 8 and they still have trouble waking up at 6:45-7 for an 8 start (and have trouble falling asleep early). During summer if there's nowhere to be nobody in my house is awake before 7:30.

[tacosforlife]

Aug 18, 2015 13:35:08 GMT -5 ttt said:

As for anecdotes, my high school began at 7 am, and I hated hated hated it. So did the teachers. Nobody was ever functional during first period, and usually only at about 50% during second period too.

But god forbid you do anything to interfere with football practice, which as everyone knows, is the *real* reason for high schools existing.

I seriously don't even get the football argument. My last year of high school, my school was 9:15-4:15. Football practice was 4:30 to 6:30. How the fuck is that any materially different from having school from 7:30 to 3:30 and then having practice from 3:30 to 5:30? (Spoiler alert: it's not!)

This is a topic about which I get oddly worked up!

[lexus]

One district I worked in had two start times at each high school. Some students went had classes at 7:30. (First period through 6) and the other students started at 8:30 (second period through seventh).

I also taught at a middle school that went from 9-4. It sucked for me and it did limit the sports and extra curricular activities students could participate in.

Changing start times would absolutely require coordination between multiple districts for sports. Many schools are offering fewer sports now that they can't require student athletes to pay fees. Schools that don't already have lights on fields might not be able to afford them.

I think it's worth looking into but it definitely wouldn't be easy.

[lexus]

Aug 18, 2015 13:37:34 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Aug 18, 2015 13:35:08 GMT -5 ttt said:

As for anecdotes, my high school began at 7 am, and I hated hated hated it. So did the teachers. Nobody was ever functional during first period, and usually only at about 50% during second period too.

But god forbid you do anything to interfere with football practice, which as everyone knows, is the *real* reason for high schools existing.

I seriously don't even get the football argument. My last year of high school, my school was 9:15-4:15. Football practice was 4:30 to 6:30. How the fuck is that any materially different from having school from 7:30 to 3:30 and then having practice from 3:30 to 5:30? (Spoiler alert: it's not!)

This is a topic about which I get oddly worked up!

It's not about practice it's about games which are often played between districts. If district A starts significantly later than district B then either district A doesn't participate or the athletes are missing classes to compete.

[Daria Morgandorffer]

I had a zero hour high school class that started at 6:55. It was nightmarish and I fell asleep in class more times than I can even remember. Aside from saving money on daycare, I am really not looking forward to dealing with actual school

[btdt]

Anecdote time. The high school where I teach, and both of my children attend, starts class at 8:30. Thursdays are my older daughter's really long day. She has work exit, so leaves campus after 5th period (1:30) in order to be at work by 2. She works from 2 until 5:30, then comes back to school for marching band practice from 6-9. Because of this schedule, early in the week she asks all of her teachers for the week's work, since she knows she won't have time to do it later in the week. So far it is working (her only grade below a 97 is in AP Literature). At 15, she was nearly ALWAYS up by 6:30 on the weekends, 5:30 on weekdays. It's just who she is.

[tacosforlife]

Aug 18, 2015 13:47:04 GMT -5 lexus said:

Aug 18, 2015 13:37:34 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

I seriously don't even get the football argument. My last year of high school, my school was 9:15-4:15. Football practice was 4:30 to 6:30. How the fuck is that any materially different from having school from 7:30 to 3:30 and then having practice from 3:30 to 5:30? (Spoiler alert: it's not!)

This is a topic about which I get oddly worked up!

It's not about practice it's about games which are often played between districts. If district A starts significantly later than district B then either district A doesn't participate or the athletes are missing classes to compete.

But again, this is an issue that can be tackled (see what I did there?) with some forward thinking and creativity. For starters, if all districts took heed of the actual data on this issue (because please note that people who advocate for later start times are not just pulling this out of their asses), then the issue would largely go away.

Further, I'd argue that some students occasionally missing class for a game is a better alternative than making an entire school a slave to an athletic team's schedule, especially when studies show that schedule is detrimental to students.

[lexus]

Aug 18, 2015 13:56:49 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Aug 18, 2015 13:47:04 GMT -5 lexus said:

It's not about practice it's about games which are often played between districts. If district A starts significantly later than district B then either district A doesn't participate or the athletes are missing classes to compete.

But again, this is an issue that can be tackled (see what I did there?) with some forward thinking and creativity. For starters, if all districts took heed of the actual data on this issue (because please note that people who advocate for later start times are not just pulling this out of their asses), then the issue would largely go away.

Further, I'd argue that some students occasionally missing class for a game is a better alternative than making an entire school a slave to an athletic team's schedule, especially when studies show that schedule is detrimental to students.

I see what you did there. ; )

It's not just football though. the high school I teach at fall sports include at least football, field hockey, girls volleyball and cross country. Just the varsity teams alone would mean at least one hundred kids. And some of those sports play multiple games a week. If each of those students misses the same class once a week for the whole season we are talking about 6-10 (depending on whether or not they make playoffs) hours of instructional time. How are they supposed to make up that work? And then I as a teacher become captive of the sports teams. It wouldn't be fair if I held a weekly quiz on Friday if five students missed that day every week.

[tacosforlife]

Aug 18, 2015 14:04:30 GMT -5 lexus said:

Aug 18, 2015 13:56:49 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

But again, this is an issue that can be tackled (see what I did there?) with some forward thinking and creativity. For starters, if all districts took heed of the actual data on this issue (because please note that people who advocate for later start times are not just pulling this out of their asses), then the issue would largely go away.

Further, I'd argue that some students occasionally missing class for a game is a better alternative than making an entire school a slave to an athletic team's schedule, especially when studies show that schedule is detrimental to students.

I see what you did there. ; )

It's not just football though. the high school I teach at fall sports include at least football, field hockey, girls volleyball and cross country. Just the varsity teams alone would mean at least one hundred kids. And some of those sports play multiple games a week. If each of those students misses the same class once a week for the whole season we are talking about 6-10 (depending on whether or not they make playoffs) hours of instructional time. How are they supposed to make up that work? And then I as a teacher become captive of the sports teams. It wouldn't be fair if I held a weekly quiz on Friday if five students missed that day every week.

Again, though, the whole point is that multiple districts did it. And why can't districts agree to have games later? Who the fuck is having volleyball games at 3:30pm on a weekday? Do no parents go to those games?

We should be scheduling sporting events to fit the school schedule, not the other way around. And the school schedule should be geared toward the students' best interest, which includes a need for sufficient sleep.

[meshaliuknits]

Aug 18, 2015 13:35:08 GMT -5 ttt said:

As for anecdotes, my high school began at 7 am, and I hated hated hated it. So did the teachers. Nobody was ever functional during first period, and usually only at about 50% during second period too.

In college I packed my schedule so that I was done with all my classes by 1pm. I am completely fucking useless after 3pm. I still think I got a C in physiology because the goddamn class didn't start until 4pm. Even now this is an issue, which is why I come in as early as possible so I'm only useless at work for about an hour. \

But let us not think that I am a morning person, oh no. I just work better crabby.

[lizard1131]

My DD won't start this year until 9 and I can't figure out what we are going to do with her for 3 HOURS. UGH. We are early birds by nature...I am usually at work no later than 7:30. I am dreading it.

[rugbywife]

As long as sports are THE factor in decision making at the school level, vs actual research suggesting what should happen...nothing is ever going to change.

And I say this as a morning person, I wish I could work like 7-2. But the reality is that teenage brains don't work well early in the morning.

If sports are so important, have practice and games at 7am and the start school at 9:15.

[agnes]

I guess I was the weird kid that liked zero period in high school. I think it started at 6:20.

[penguingrrl]

Am I the only one who also thinks that early morning is a better time for sports practices anyway? I mean, who decided that 2:30-5 in the blazing sun was the best time for practice? I say this as someone who had marching band practice those hours every day August-November. Until about mid-October it was brutal!

[Deleted]

Many thoughts.

Extracurriculars - Maybe making school hours later would dissuade moms and/or dads from making sure little Junior is taking on 3-4 different extracurriculars so they can out-brag each other at the playgrounds. (Yep, I went there.) Also, if this became a sweeping change, the extras would have to adjust to keep running. And again, maybe it's ok that Preshus is only in one or two things at a time.

Commutes - I'm wondering how shifting school start/end times might positively or negatively impact morning and afternoon rush hours in more metropolitan areas. Would it spread it out more so it's not so awful? Make it worse? Have no impact?

Before/After School Care - would starting later allow some parents to not have to bear the expense of getting Junior care for when they have to be at work?

I say why the hell not - let's try it.

[tacosforlife]

Aug 18, 2015 14:23:03 GMT -5 @ladydisdain said:

Many thoughts.

Extracurriculars - Maybe making school hours later would dissuade moms and/or dads from making sure little Junior is taking on 3-4 different extracurriculars so they can out-brag each other at the playgrounds. (Yep, I went there.) Also, if this became a sweeping change, the extras would have to adjust to keep running. And again, maybe it's ok that Preshus is only in one or two things at a time.

See, I still don't think the start time will actually affect how many extra-curriculars a student can do. Or if it does, it's only because currently, the student is getting insufficient sleep to cram all of those in. There are still 24 hours in a day. Things just shift.

[frlcb]

Aug 18, 2015 13:35:08 GMT -5 ttt said:

As for anecdotes, my high school began at 7 am, and I hated hated hated it. So did the teachers. Nobody was ever functional during first period, and usually only at about 50% during second period too.

But god forbid you do anything to interfere with football practice, which as everyone knows, is the *real* reason for high schools existing.

Did you go to high school in Georgia? I did and my high school didn't start til 822 or some random time like that. End time was 315 unless you had enough credits as a senior and you could get out at 230.

The county I am in now is either 745 or 8 for elementary, 810'fpr high schools and 850 for middle.

[ttt]

Aug 18, 2015 14:27:24 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Aug 18, 2015 13:35:08 GMT -5 ttt said:

As for anecdotes, my high school began at 7 am, and I hated hated hated it. So did the teachers. Nobody was ever functional during first period, and usually only at about 50% during second period too.

But god forbid you do anything to interfere with football practice, which as everyone knows, is the *real* reason for high schools existing.

Did you go to high school in Georgia? I did and my high school didn't start til 822 or some random time like that. End time was 315 unless you had enough credits as a senior and you could get out at 230.

The county I am in now is either 745 or 8 for elementary, 810'fpr high schools and 850 for middle.

I did - Gwinnett County. It suuuuucked. We also weren't allowed to get out early no matter how many credits you had - you just had to choose more classes to fill your schedule. But we were done around 2 pm anyway. 

I see the county hasn't changed much - looks like HS there still starts around 7 am for most schools: publish.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/gcps/wcm/connect/a9cbeac6-b1ca-45b4-8b02-17a812550e9f/2013-14-School-Start-and-End-Times-FINAL-REVISED-6-26-13.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

ETA: we also only had 20 minutes for lunch period, which included the time to get to the cafeteria, get your food, and get back to class. Talk about setting kids up for unhealthy eating habits...

[frlcb]

Aug 18, 2015 14:53:09 GMT -5 ttt said:

Aug 18, 2015 14:27:24 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Did you go to high school in Georgia? I did and my high school didn't start til 822 or some random time like that. End time was 315 unless you had enough credits as a senior and you could get out at 230.

The county I am in now is either 745 or 8 for elementary, 810'fpr high schools and 850 for middle.

I did - Gwinnett County. It suuuuucked. We also weren't allowed to get out early no matter how many credits you had - you just had to choose more classes to fill your schedule. But we were done around 2 pm anyway. 

I see the county hasn't changed much - looks like HS there still starts around 7 am for most schools: publish.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/gcps/wcm/connect/a9cbeac6-b1ca-45b4-8b02-17a812550e9f/2013-14-School-Start-and-End-Times-FINAL-REVISED-6-26-13.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

ETA: we also only had 20 minutes for lunch period, which included the time to get to the cafeteria, get your food, and get back to class. Talk about setting kids up for unhealthy eating habits...

I was Cobb, now dekalb. It's weird how every county here is different.

[cattledogkisses]

Aug 18, 2015 14:53:09 GMT -5 ttt said:

Aug 18, 2015 14:27:24 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Did you go to high school in Georgia? I did and my high school didn't start til 822 or some random time like that. End time was 315 unless you had enough credits as a senior and you could get out at 230.

The county I am in now is either 745 or 8 for elementary, 810'fpr high schools and 850 for middle.

I did - Gwinnett County. It suuuuucked. We also weren't allowed to get out early no matter how many credits you had - you just had to choose more classes to fill your schedule. But we were done around 2 pm anyway. 

I see the county hasn't changed much - looks like HS there still starts around 7 am for most schools: publish.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/gcps/wcm/connect/a9cbeac6-b1ca-45b4-8b02-17a812550e9f/2013-14-School-Start-and-End-Times-FINAL-REVISED-6-26-13.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

ETA: we also only had 20 minutes for lunch period, which included the time to get to the cafeteria, get your food, and get back to class. Talk about setting kids up for unhealthy eating habits...

This sounds like my high school.  First bell was at 7:20 am. And we had 22 minute lunches.