when do you think dinosaurs walked the earth, approximately?
I'm not sure I can answer for sure. Before humans. But U don't rule out the possibility thst they lived in some form while humans were alive.
Dinosaurs resemble birds and even from a Creationists standpoint I can reconcile the Bible with the idea that dinosaurs lived before humans, as burds and sea creatures were created before us.
I'm comfortable with not having all the answers. Even science doesn't. But if your question is what we are teaching our kids, we use secular science books.
Reading a bit more about this organization makes me really nervous. They're pretty instrumental in dismantling mandated reporting of abuse, neglect, sexual abuse -- these are fucked-up things for a religious organization devoted to homeschooling to be championing. And honestly this organization seems to foster in its followers a weird kind of survivalist paranoia that feels a little culty.
One of their big cases they won was that CPS can't respond to anonymous tips. Talk about shutting down a large avenue of welfare checks.
lurkingaw do you believe that parents have the right to not educate their children at all, if they so choose?
I don't think that is possible. Parents provide an education whether or not they are doing it formally or by choice. Unschooling is an example of this.
But do I think it is abuse not to teach your kids to read and write or do basic math? Yes. I do. I would expect children to be taken out of the home if they were older and hadn't acquired those skills. I just disagree with the government's timetable on assessment for those skills. Some research shows better outcomes when children are not pressured to begin learning to read until age 8 or later. So sm I OK with CPS stepping in when a third grader can't read? No. That isn't abuse. A 12 year old without learning disabilities that can't read. That's different. A case by case assessment by CPS would better determine if it's a neglect situation than just analyzing test scores from governent standardized tests.
lucyhoneychurch The government can have a vested intetest in them, which is why CPS exists and people who are simply throwing bread and water at their kids can be prosecuted for neglect. But what constitutes an education is so subjective. Reading, writing, math - sure. Chemistry, history, art - are they necessary for everyone? Some would argue no. You mentioned yhe Amish, but I know plenty of non-Amish who live very simple lives and have no use for half of ehat is taught. Are they abusing their children if instead of teaching them Literature they decide to teach them farming skills or a trade at a young age?
HSLDA has fought this fight many times and won it, particularly for unschoolers. This is also why the Amish you mentioned can opt out of school after grade 8. The Constitution doesn't guarantee the right of the government to decide WHAT constitutes adequate education for people outside of government schools or chartered private schools.
And I say this all as a parent who will not be opting out of subjects listed above and whose curricula are very similar to what is taught in gov schools. Just saying that thelaw is definitely on HSLDAs side whether or not we agree with it.
The reason the Amish won their court case is because they are an isolated community that has very little to do with society as a whole.
And yes, I think the farming family who doesn't teach their kids about literature and instead teaches them a trade is doing them a massive, MASSIVE disservice. A child of six does not know what he or she wants to do as an adult, and pigeonholing their education in one specific direction violates that CHILD's free exercise and right to pursuit of happiness.
You don't get to wave your Constitutional rights in people's faces and simultaneously advocate for the reduction of rights for children.
In fact, I'd argue that NOT giving a kid a well-rounded education that provides various schools of thought is coercion and undue influence. Because now you've purposefully limited their options as adults, so all they can do is be part of whatever closed off cult society you've created. I can't even that the Amish still get away with that shit.
Slippery slope Give them an inch, they'll take a mile
Teaching only your version of history is good for kids History can be learned by general everyday experience, no sweat Fossils are lies A quarterly newsletter published by an organization is totally objective about their own behavior
lurkingaw do you believe that parents have the right to not educate their children at all, if they so choose?
I don't think that is possible. Parents provide an education whether or not they are doing it formally or by choice. Unschooling is an example of this.
But do I think it is abuse not to teach your kids to read and write or do basic math? Yes. I do. I would expect children to be taken out of the home if they were older and hadn't acquired those skills. I just disagree with the government's timetable on assessment for those skills. Some research shows better outcomes when children are not pressured to begin learning to read until age 8 or later. So sm I OK with CPS stepping in when a third grader can't read? No. That isn't abuse. A 12 year old without learning disabilities that can't read. That's different. A case by case assessment by CPS would better determine if it's a neglect situation than just analyzing test scores from governent standardized tests.
so who determines if a 12 y/o has a LD? and how is the state supposed to know if that child can't read?
Slippery slope Give them an inch, they'll take a mile
Teaching only your version of history is good for kids History can be learned by general everyday experience, no sweat Fossils are lies A quarterly newsletter published by an organization is totally objective about their own behavior
What else have we learned in the last day or two?
That your reading comprehension skills are limited.
lurkingaw do you believe that parents have the right to not educate their children at all, if they so choose?
I don't think that is possible. Parents provide an education whether or not they are doing it formally or by choice. Unschooling is an example of this.
But do I think it is abuse not to teach your kids to read and write or do basic math? Yes. I do. I would expect children to be taken out of the home if they were older and hadn't acquired those skills. I just disagree with the government's timetable on assessment for those skills. Some research shows better outcomes when children are not pressured to begin learning to read until age 8 or later. So sm I OK with CPS stepping in when a third grader can't read? No. That isn't abuse. A 12 year old without learning disabilities that can't read. That's different. A case by case assessment by CPS would better determine if it's a neglect situation than just analyzing test scores from governent standardized tests.
Who gets to draw that line, though? That seems like an awful lot of power for an individual caseworker if you're not going to have any guidelines or rules and just leave it up to each case. Not to mention that CPS caseworkers are tremendously overburdened and they don't even remotely have the time to individually assess the education levels of every child in their caseload. In many instances, they're lucky if they even have a chance to visit the house and check if the child is still alive. And of course, expecting CPS to do individual case-by-case assessments means they would need a major increase in funding - would you be willing to pay higher taxes for this?
I don't think that anything a child encounters is the same thing as an education. Yes, children will learn things just by living life, but "learning things" is not necessarily education.
At any rate, I don't really see the difference between saying "parents have the right to choose what their children do and don't learn" and saying "parents have a right to choose whether their child learns anything at all, including basic math and how to read." Either parents have an absolute right to determine what their child learns or they don't and we as a society agree that failure to teach certain things is tantamount to neglect.
It's been fun, folks. Thanks for the reminder to pay my HSLDA dues. They are due this week. But responding to the same stupid questions over and over is getting old. You guys know where I stand and disagree. I'm OK with that and have the law on my side so it's cool. Thanks to those interested in serious discussion. Despite what some people think, I got some food for thought from this thread.
It's been fun, folks. Thanks for the reminder to pay my HSLDA dues. They are due this week. But responding to the same stupid questions over and over is getting old. You guys know where I stand and disagree. I'm OK with that and have the law on my side so it's cool. Thanks to those interested in serious discussion. Despite what some people think, I got some food for thought from this thread.
You only have the law on your side until new laws are written.
lurkingaw do you believe that parents have the right to not educate their children at all, if they so choose?
I don't think that is possible. Parents provide an education whether or not they are doing it formally or by choice. Unschooling is an example of this.
But do I think it is abuse not to teach your kids to read and write or do basic math? Yes. I do. I would expect children to be taken out of the home if they were older and hadn't acquired those skills. I just disagree with the government's timetable on assessment for those skills. Some research shows better outcomes when children are not pressured to begin learning to read until age 8 or later. So sm I OK with CPS stepping in when a third grader can't read? No. That isn't abuse. A 12 year old without learning disabilities that can't read. That's different. A case by case assessment by CPS would better determine if it's a neglect situation than just analyzing test scores from governent standardized tests.
So CPS can step in, but the government shouldn't be involved.
I support their right to teach whatever and however they want. Period. I can't inagine American history not coming up even in unschooling homes. Rote memorization of dates and wars, maybe not (the average American adult can't even remember that info they were previously taught), but the overall history isn't hard to pick up organically.
Yes it is. That's one reason it's a great idea to have a curriculum; it ensures that you don't have glaring holes in historical education. As a society, we've agreed that certain information should be shared knowledge among all educated adults; we don't want students to "skip" the Great Depression because they just found it too depressing, or never learned that the Civil War was about slavery because it didn't come up organically.
Yeah, you don't exactly "pick up" Glasnost and Perestroika or the political climate that led to Hitler's rise of power "organically". Or, you know, the Crusades, speaking of whitewashing history.
Slippery slope Give them an inch, they'll take a mile
Teaching only your version of history is good for kids History can be learned by general everyday experience, no sweat Fossils are lies A quarterly newsletter published by an organization is totally objective about their own behavior
What else have we learned in the last day or two?
That your reading comprehension skills are limited.
Yes it is. That's one reason it's a great idea to have a curriculum; it ensures that you don't have glaring holes in historical education. As a society, we've agreed that certain information should be shared knowledge among all educated adults; we don't want students to "skip" the Great Depression because they just found it too depressing, or never learned that the Civil War was about slavery because it didn't come up organically.
Yeah, you don't exactly "pick up" Glasnost and Perestroika or the political climate that led to Hitler's rise of power "organically". Or, you know, the Crusades, speaking of whitewashing history.
Oh man, now I'm super curious what AW's kids will learn about the Crusades.
Yeah, you don't exactly "pick up" Glasnost and Perestroika or the political climate that led to Hitler's rise of power "organically". Or, you know, the Crusades, speaking of whitewashing history.
Oh man, now I'm super curious what AW's kids will learn about the Crusades.
when do you think dinosaurs walked the earth, approximately?
I'm not sure I can answer for sure. Before humans. But U don't rule out the possibility thst they lived in some form while humans were alive.
Dinosaurs resemble birds and even from a Creationists standpoint I can reconcile the Bible with the idea that dinosaurs lived before humans, as burds and sea creatures were created before us.
I'm comfortable with not having all the answers. Even science doesn't. But if your question is what we are teaching our kids, we use secular science books.
when do you think dinosaurs walked the earth, approximately?
I'm not sure I can answer for sure. Before humans. But U don't rule out the possibility thst they lived in some form while humans were alive.
Dinosaurs resemble birds and even from a Creationists standpoint I can reconcile the Bible with the idea that dinosaurs lived before humans, as burds and sea creatures were created before us.
I'm comfortable with not having all the answers. Even science doesn't. But if your question is what we are teaching our kids, we use secular science books.
Michelle - I don't think everyone came out swinging, but lurkingaw came out saying she wasn't even going to read the article b/c she "got the gist" and b/c "the government" can't tell her how to teach or even glance into her or other homeschooling people's homes. Also that she's sorry, not sorry, that some kids are abused, but she's not for more oversight on homeschooling to prevent these cases and that a lurking neighbor should call CPS if they see issues inside a homeschooler's home(See below and the first page of this). I think her immediate dismissal that the state or feds should have any interest in the health/well being and education of kids was what started the thread off to quick attack.
Only read the first part because I think I get the gist of the rest.
As a homeschooling parent, I am fortunate to live in a state that gives me options. The idea that the government has any say in how I choose to educate my children is contrary to my religious and political views. I am a proud HSLDA member and will fight for these rights if I have to. My children are not the property of the State and therefore it is none of their business how my children score on a test nor is it their right to "approve" my curricula or monitor what goes on in our home. I am thankful that my state allows me to opt out of that.
Do I care about the children that fall through the cracks? Absolutely. Do I think that limiting the freedom of law-abiding citizens is the solution? Absolutely not. I am glad I have HSLDA to fight on my behalf. It's a slippery slope and I'm not willing to go there for the sake of my children.
Her next post just two down says that she feels that knowing her own kids means that she is MORE vested and a better teacher than a career teacher in any public school, but she was clear that she uses the internet and other career teachers for resources. Plus, she did retract that a little later saying that "good teachers" were out there and they might be better equipped, but that she was still more well equipped than the rest.
I'm totally good with attacking her arguments. I think AW is fundamentally (no pun intended) flawwed in her thinking on this topic (i.e. zero government interference is needed) and allegiance to the HSL...whatever association.
Some great points have been made in this extremely long thread:
1) the gov't has a vested interested in ensuring that its children grow up with an education that will allow them to be employable and contributing members of society
2) you can't rely on nosy neighbors to look out for abuse of children - there are too many cases of kids isolated in 100% "homeschooling environments" who are really just being horribly abused and neglected and we have a societal obligation to look out for those kids.
3) TTT's article posted about Hana Williams as counter evidence to AW's assertion.
4) the pointed question to homeschooling advocates: "how do you propose that these cases be prevented? And do you strongly believe that your right to school your children however you please, with whatever standards (or not) you please, outweighs these children's right to have some sort of protection from abuse?
Or are you in the mindset of the HSLDA that what happens to other people's children is of zero concern to you and if children are being abused and killed, well, it's not your kids so it doesn't matter? "
5) the examples majorwife gave of the lobbying power of homeschooling lobbyists in IL having mafia-like mobilization, better than unions, so it goes unquestioned (hits at quality of assertion of HSL... whatever association
6) when AW asserted she has a hard time believing NO ONE sees a problem if a kid is starving or whatever, and the counter argument example of Ariel Castro
7) when AW asserted that oversight = punishment to law-abiders the Princess Bride Inigo Montoya quote "you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" reply. That was a funny way to question her word choice without being offensive.
8) pointing out that the "freedom" of homeschooled kids puts them out of touch with real life where most jobs require you to go in, be present, do your work according to their rules, etc. and school prepares kids for that.
9) pointing out that education is also about not only what you learn but learning different ways TO learn
10) pointing out that homeschooling all the way through HS for those who are not college bound creates a challenge for them to be competitive in the job market because they will have to get a GED since they didn't graduate from an accredited high school, which is required by many employers for most decent jobs.
11) pointing out that homeschooling ill prepares the student to deal with different kinds of bosses in the future.
So much good stuff.
And then there were the comments about churning butter for her man, correcting her spelling (though hers was an acceptable alternative spelling), saying she lived in a unicorn la la land, criticizing obvious fat finger text typos on a phone, wanting to be a cowboy ballerina, Dobby popping in with the Yeshiva and snood comment (although I love seeing Dobalina posting, it is unfortunate that an opportunity to take a stab at AW is what did it... but everyone knows Dobs hates AW... so I digress), gifs of obviously inbred backwoods kids who are Christians opposed to dinosaurs and homosexuals, etc.
Eclaires posted about people being petty dicks in the thread - I missed that or wouldn't have felt the need to post my comment and further stir the pot. She stated it better - stop being petty dicks and be open and respectful to those engaging in the conversation against a hostile majority.
Reading a bit more about this organization makes me really nervous. They're pretty instrumental in dismantling mandated reporting of abuse, neglect, sexual abuse -- these are fucked-up things for a religious organization devoted to homeschooling to be championing. And honestly this organization seems to foster in its followers a weird kind of survivalist paranoia that feels a little culty.
One of their big cases they won was that CPS can't respond to anonymous tips. Talk about shutting down a large avenue of welfare checks.
Totally necessary. Just that a better non-white washed view of it is taught when you ditch the curricula offered by most schools and let your children read living books about history instead.
Just like the bible is non-whitewashed.
Your perspective on that would really depend on which denomination you subscribe to.
lurkingaw - I will give you this on history - the history textbooks are definitely whitewashed, so not following a history textbook to teach your kids history would be a-ok with me and possibly an improvement.
I can see how allowing a kid to ask, "why is such-and-such like this" and giving the historical lesson right then and there as a way to teach history being a good one. I can see this because I HATED history in grade school. I didn't love it until college where it was presented to me in an integrated multidisciplinary approach that incorporated humanities, philosophy, religion, architecture, and literature into the lesson. If you are teaching THAT, I think you could be teaching some AMAZING history.
But there are some things that really do need to be introduced with some structure if you want your kids to be better than the Jay Leno idiots-on-the-street interviews. There needs to be some understanding of how our nation was formed, how our government was formed, and the events that impacted our society over time. There needs to be some understanding of how people migrated across the world - what drove them? Was it war, famine, religious pursuits - what? Without some minimal history framework how do kids have any understanding on how to fit the rest of the pieces in?
Do you consider "social studies" to be different from History?
, Dobby popping in with the Yeshiva and snood comment (although I love seeing Dobalina posting, it is unfortunate that an opportunity to take a stab at AW is what did it... but everyone knows Dobs hates AW... so I digress),
Thank you for your kind words. I do take your criticism that I shouldn't just pop up to criticize AW. I can see a valid point there. I should contribute and not just kvetch.
But AW is the Rachel Dolezal of the Jews, and I'll call out her ignoble mock Judaism with every breath in my body. Take off the wig and self tanner, honey and be the crazy white girl you are.
, Dobby popping in with the Yeshiva and snood comment (although I love seeing Dobalina posting, it is unfortunate that an opportunity to take a stab at AW is what did it... but everyone knows Dobs hates AW... so I digress),
Thank you for your kind words. I do take your criticism that I shouldn't just pop up to criticize AW. I can see a valid point there. I should contribute and not just kvetch.
But AW is the Rachel Dolezal of the Jews, and I'll call out her ignoble mock Judaism with every breath in my body. Take off the wig and self tanner, honey and be the crazy white girl you are.
I just spit my coffee out all over myself.
That is the MrDobalina we know and love! (Sorry AW - I shouldn't encourage her but the back and forth between you two was entertaining way back when). Please pop in more often.
, Dobby popping in with the Yeshiva and snood comment (although I love seeing Dobalina posting, it is unfortunate that an opportunity to take a stab at AW is what did it... but everyone knows Dobs hates AW... so I digress),
But AW is the Rachel Dolezal of the Jews, and I'll call out her ignoble mock Judaism with every breath in my body. Take off the wig and self tanner, honey and be the crazy white girl you are.
I really do wonder what history/biblical context is being taught about the Hamitic Curse and how that has shaped history for people of color in terms of 'biblical' practice. lurkingaw - please let me know your thoughts. (Authentic please here)
I did kind of laugh at not teaching white-washed history yet allowing history to be absorbed organically when the history that we're taught in this country and that is considered "fact" is founded in colonial rhetoric. Not to mention, how are your children going to learn about working in diverse groups when they work with their siblings, who look like them, and are trained up like them.
She's already addressed this. Her kids will be fine without diversity. Or something. Also, she has black friends. They always have black friends.
It's been fun, folks. Thanks for the reminder to pay my HSLDA dues. They are due this week. But responding to the same stupid questions over and over is getting old. You guys know where I stand and disagree. I'm OK with that and have the law on my side so it's cool. Thanks to those interested in serious discussion. Despite what some people think, I got some food for thought from this thread.
Thank you for making me realize how involved I should be in fighting to get Homeschooling regulated.