What's the point of a kid winning a science fair if they didn't even do the project? Is it like a parents competition then?
This doesn't make any sense. Would I be proud of my kid winning a race that id run for him while he stood on the sidelines watching? Would I tell people how my kid won that race? They'd be like ... Umm I just saw you running it, he didn't even run?
How is it different!
It's so weird to me. It's one thing to help the kids a little but doing the stuff for them so they'll win competitions?!
Of course it doesn't make sense but people are crazy.
Post by imojoebunny on Aug 29, 2015 12:57:17 GMT -5
This is real: "One mother told me she was willing to step back, but felt like she could not because the standards have moved for what constitutes an A on a science project. Teachers have come to accept that parents interfere and co-opt school projects, and have begun to take that for granted when grading."
When DD was in first grade, she had to do several posters. Two of them required a lot of writing and she was really bad at that in FIRST grade. All the posters had neatly printed or typed text, neatly cut out pictures, everything glued on in a tidy fashion, and then there was DD's poster. I did type some of it for her, with her dictating the content, because she could not write small enough, but that was my only contribution. It looked a mess, but she did it, except for they typing, 100% herself. One of the posters was about recycling, and she refused to use a poster board, and used a box instead. I let her. It stuck out like a black sheep, but it is her work.
DD is tough about it, she does't let the difference get to her, but my son has a harder time, when his best is the worst. He doesn't understand that the parents did it for the kids. You should see some of the model houses the 3rd graders make. I am pretty sure some are done by architecture firms, and holy expensive materials.
What's the point of a kid winning a science fair if they didn't even do the project? Is it like a parents competition then?
This doesn't make any sense. Would I be proud of my kid winning a race that id run for him while he stood on the sidelines watching? Would I tell people how my kid won that race? They'd be like ... Umm I just saw you running it, he didn't even run?
How is it different!
It's so weird to me. It's one thing to help the kids a little but doing the stuff for them so they'll win competitions?!
It's different because the judges didn't see you build the project for your kid so it's presumed "Wow what an artistically talented and scientifically adept child!" Whereas if you ran the race for your kid, everyone would see you crossing the finish line and not your kid. I feel like the underlying message being taught here is to take all the credit when someone says you're the best because hiding the truth of how you became 1st is the way to get ahead.
Building architecturally accurate houses in 4th grade, presentations on hobbies and passions in 1st grade - we as adults can all see how ridiculous these assignments are. Our parents saw they were ridiculous as shared in the stories above. Where are the adults teaching these classes? Why does a 4th grade teacher think building a California style home is totally something a 4th grader can do on their own?
I did step away last year & did not interfere/correct homework for my 2nd & 4th graders. What happened? They both essentially got the equivalent of straight As except an equivalent of an F in homework. My DD1 did not do 15+ assignments that was given as extra because she did not do the iPad Math (I took away iPads after the first bad homework grades as punishment). Homework is not a strong suit around here...we do sports/music/arts after school & honestly I couldn't babysit homework for 2 kids and fix dinner/watch the 2 younger kids. Ironically everyone hates on projects but it's a leveling ground for my kid. DD1 is artistic & creative and her projects are amazing done all on her own. We do not help outside of buying materials & they look awesome. It's nice to have your strength shine when normally she struggles to keep up in reading, spelling, memorization...those things that are such the holy grail in education & constantly graded/praised. We are in project based professions because they are our strengths too...isn't it obvious there is a really good chance our children are naturally talented at them (art, composition, collaboration, presentation) too? I hate that there is only 1 way for a child to be smart & the rest of its got to be the parents.
Post by scribellesam on Aug 29, 2015 14:56:16 GMT -5
My memories of my elementary school science fairs make a lot more sense now. I was always a very dedicated student, I couldn't figure out why all these kids had these crazy professional looking projects that were so much better than my efforts. I never realized I was competing with 30-something adults!
I was actually going to post about the book mentioned in the article (How to Raise an Adult) and suggest a MMM book club reading of it for anyone who is interested! Anyone want to do a book club?
yes! Can we have 6 weeks or so to read it before we discuss? My vacation is next week and DH and I have a "no parenting books on vacation" rule, lol.
My memories of my elementary school science fairs make a lot more sense now. I was always a very dedicated student, I couldn't figure out why all these kids had these crazy professional looking projects that were so much better than my efforts. I never realized I was competing with 30-something adults!
Yes!!! I always thought I just wasn't very good at that kind of stuff! my parents would have never even entertained the idea of doing it for (or even with) me.
I saw this a lot of this when I was in elementary through high school because I ran with the "honors" students. One of the moms actually FORCED the band director in grades 6-9 to have her daughter and another boy switch chairs every other song, so they both could be FIRST chair. The girl was honestly not as good as the boy, but the mom refused to see it that way. Once we reached high school, that band director told her to take a hike, and the mom pulled her daughter out of band.
The mother was omnipresent in other areas too, and to be honest, most of the teachers kowtowed to her. She simply wouldn't ALLOW her kid to get anything less than perfect grades. It resulted in a kid that would sit in the principal's office pulling out her eyelashes... literally... if she didn't get what she wanted out of a grade or group project. The girl was a mess.
My mom was a helicopter parent in many ways outside of school. (She discouraged me from driving, having a job before college, dating, etc.) However, my parents were good about letting me take the lead in school, and I think that helped me deal with college with confidence. They never did my homework for me, consulted with my teachers, etc. They were interested about my grades and what I did in school, but they didn't hold my hand. When I wanted to join clubs and/or quit clubs, I did that on my own, and they were fine with it.
So, I have confidence with school issues, but I am way behind the curve to this day with a lot of social independence if that makes sense.
I hate that there is only 1 way for a child to be smart & the rest of its got to be the parents.
I don't think that's what anyone is saying, it's certainly not what I'm saying. It's pretty obvious when the project is a well done project by a kid vs one done by the parents. I had some students that put together some outstanding projects that looked truly fantastic (that mix of tidy but creative, with an eye for layout and detail) but it was still obvious which one was done by a 10-year-old and which one was done by a 40-year-old.
My parents guided us for science fair and essays etc. But we did the work. All the kids were like that. But we lived in low to lower middle class so nobody's parents had advanced degrees or lots of money to share.
I sometimes feel like I am helicoptering. My child is going to jk next week and I am terrified she won't be able to take off her shoes and change into indoor ones. (She can but I often just do it for her to save time) and she won't be able to open her lunch box. (I have heard the teacher will help them) So with one week to go - I am forcing her to do everything. I am most concerned about wiping her bum. The preschool teachers helped with poop. The jk teachers don't.
What's the point of a kid winning a science fair if they didn't even do the project? Is it like a parents competition then?
This doesn't make any sense. Would I be proud of my kid winning a race that id run for him while he stood on the sidelines watching? Would I tell people how my kid won that race? They'd be like ... Umm I just saw you running it, he didn't even run?
How is it different!
It's so weird to me. It's one thing to help the kids a little but doing the stuff for them so they'll win competitions?!
It's different because the judges didn't see you build the project for your kid so it's presumed "Wow what an artistically talented and scientifically adept child!" Whereas if you ran the race for your kid, everyone would see you crossing the finish line and not your kid. I feel like the underlying message being taught here is to take all the credit when someone says you're the best because hiding the truth of how you became 1st is the way to get ahead.
Building architecturally accurate houses in 4th grade, presentations on hobbies and passions in 1st grade - we as adults can all see how ridiculous these assignments are. Our parents saw they were ridiculous as shared in the stories above. Where are the adults teaching these classes? Why does a 4th grade teacher think building a California style home is totally something a 4th grader can do on their own?
I think that these projects are a consequence of loftily worded standards that ask kids to understand the connections among academic concepts, a push to make our classes personalized and relevant, and an emphasis on applying knowledge and project-based and alternative assessments. None of these things are bad, but I can see how an eager teacher who wants kids to move away from a traditional pen and paper test or essay could think, "hey, I'll have kids design their own building to show their understanding of spatial relationships, or Ancient Greece, or something-- that will be more fun aAnd engaging than a test." The problem is that the kid may not have a clue about the concept, but the work won't reveal it because the parents helped.
The not helping with their homework part seems to be different in our school While HW is graded it's not what makes up most of their grades. They expect and want parents to help with it as it enforces what they learn during the day. Projects and tests are done at school.
MH was overparented for sure. His parents were super involved in his school work, even in college. He started out as an engineering major but really had no aptitude for it, so his dad (an engineer) drove to his university every weekend to help him with his work.
Thankfully he transferred schools and changed majors and that all stopped, but I worry that it's left him with a penchant to overparent our kids. Right now because of his work schedule he's not around DS1's school stuff much. Plus it's just preK so there isn't real homework or projects. But when it comes time for science fairs and whatnot I anticipate having to lock H in the attic or something to keep him for doing it for them.
And I do notice an effect on H as an adult, compared to me (I was under parented, if anything). I just handle shit better than he does most of the time. He gets nervous and second-guesses himself about the tiniest decisions, then has trouble letting go of it even once the decision is made. It drives me nuts sometimes since I just make command decisions and move on.
I really do wish there were some sort of data on overparenting. It seems possible that it's one of those anecdotes you hear a lot of it your the kind of person who works at NPR or New York Times Magazine (looking at you, "The Opt Out Revolution"). And feeding on UMC anxieties sells papers. But I have no idea how widespread helicopter parenting is or isn't.
I was a fairly independent kid from an early age, but my dad loved helping with projects. I was the only kid with a perfectly balanced mobile. I was responsible for the academic portion of the project, but heaven forbid I just hung my items on a coat hanger.
Post by Velar Fricative on Aug 30, 2015 7:32:39 GMT -5
Of course I don't want to overparent but I wonder if the true helicopter parents even realize they are overparenting.
In other words, I worry about this in our future. I want to do more for DD than my parents could do for us in terms of homework help (dad wasn't home often and mom was never educated in the U.S. and her English skills weren't great when I was in school), but I feel like there is a fine line between appropriate help and too much help. So, hopefully we will get it right.
Fwiw, I've been thinking more about the project DS has been assigned which he clearly can't do on his own. Maybe the ultimate purpose is to model for your kids how you would do the project? Show them how to plan it out, envision what you want the end result to look like, break the work down into small chunks that you work on a little bit at a time so you don't get overwhelmed, etc. Do this often enough in the early grades and maybe they will be able to take over and do it themselves in upper elementary grades? He's our oldest kid so this is our first foray into all this as parents.
I was actually going to post about the book mentioned in the article (How to Raise an Adult) and suggest a MMM book club reading of it for anyone who is interested! Anyone want to do a book club?
I'm definitely in! I'd be interested in The Gift of Failure, too, if we want to do another one later in the year.
Fwiw, I've been thinking more about the project DS has been assigned which he clearly can't do on his own. Maybe the ultimate purpose is to model for your kids how you would do the project? Show them how to plan it out, envision what you want the end result to look like, break the work down into small chunks that you work on a little bit at a time so you don't get overwhelmed, etc. Do this often enough in the early grades and maybe they will be able to take over and do it themselves in upper elementary grades? He's our oldest kid so this is our first foray into all this as parents.
I think this is a great approach. It's still a pretty crazy expectation but your plan sounds like a great way to guide him through it without actually doing the work for him. Learning the process will be very beneficial for him.
Of course I don't want to overparent but I wonder if the true helicopter parents even realize they are overparenting.
In other words, I worry about this in our future. I want to do more for DD than my parents could do for us in terms of homework help (dad wasn't home often and mom was never educated in the U.S. and her English skills weren't great when I was in school), but I feel like there is a fine line between appropriate help and too much help. So, hopefully we will get it right.
I don't think they realize it but I hope by being cognizant and actually working to not be a helicopter parent, I can avoid it.
I have a good friend that swears she is not a helicopter parent and she SO is. It's actually to the point that it's both laughable and annoying.
Post by luv2rn4fun on Aug 30, 2015 11:01:20 GMT -5
Haven't read all the responses but this article reminded me of a book my neighbor highly recommended and loaned to me (she's a MFT) called "Parenting with Love and Logic". It talks a lot about how to raise a kid capable and confident of making their own decisions by allowing them to make these decisions from a very early age (there are some examples starting as early as 8 months old). Some examples are do you want to bring a coat (if it's cold outside), putting them to bed but not forcing them to sleep (consequence is they wake up tired), getting them out of the high chair when they are not behaving at dinner, etc. It talks a lot about not forcing the child to stop the behavior but forcing them to do it somewhere else (i.e. their room). It also talks about not doing their homework for them and allowing them to suffer the consequences if they don't do their homework or forget it at home. It was a really great, eye opening book and DH and I both plan to reread it together and try to follow this model of parenting.
As for how it happens (tying onto @lauralynne's experiences), I think it's because it's easy to do a lot for your kids when they are small. They are inefficient and need guidance but that takes more time than just doing it yourself. Many parents are also wanting to keep their kids from getting in trouble or being upset because they got in trouble for not doing homework. The thing is, that's the best time in life to learn the consequences of not doing what you should because the consequences really make an impression on most young children. Didn't do your hw? Then you need to sit and do it now in class while your classmates get to do an enrichment activity on their chrome books. Too bad, so sad! Trying to convince parents to not bring the hw and let the kid learn from the experience ("but he did the work, he should get credit!") is often an exercise in futility. And I get it, I do. It's hard to not step in and do everything for DD. But it's really for the best. Let them learn the lessons when they are young and the stakes are low.
Post by stephm0188 on Aug 30, 2015 11:20:38 GMT -5
My kid is only in second grade, but I've yet to see a homework assignment come home that he could do independently. We even had family assignments last year and the year before. I don't want to do homework with/for my kid. Helping on a problem he's stuck on is one thing, or double checking it even so I know if he understands... but to sit there and have to do homework with him? WHY?
I have a neighbor who is the epitome of helicopter parent. We live right behind the high school. It's a five minute walk, door to door, and you never cross any major street. Our twon is tiny and as safe as can be. She won't let her daughter walk to school without her because "zomg it's not safe! Rapists and kidnappers and murderers!" She still organizes social time for her. It's insane.
My kid is only in second grade, but I've yet to see a homework assignment come home that he could do independently. We even had family assignments last year and the year before. I don't want to do homework with/for my kid. Helping on a problem he's stuck on is one thing, or double checking it even so I know if he understands... but to sit there and have to do homework with him? WHY?
I have a neighbor who is the epitome of helicopter parent. We live right behind the high school. It's a five minute walk, door to door, and you never cross any major street. Our twon is tiny and as safe as can be. She won't let her daughter walk to school without her because "zomg it's not safe! Rapists and kidnappers and murderers!" She still organizes social time for her. It's insane.
I have a friend was like this. It seems like such a short sighted way of parenting. What are her plans for when her daughter goes to college? Go with her?
My parents never helped me with schoolwork & never checked that I even do it. I didn't tear it up in elementary school grade wise & didn't get placed in the A-level in JrHS. But by HS I was in all honors had my shit together....and just got better in College/Grad. I want to do this for my kids but it's still hard for me because I know I'd be the only one not checking. That being said I see parents walking their 5, 6, 7, 8th graders to their classroom/front door every single day and I think, these people are ridiculous. Lol.
I very much hope that I will not helicopter, but I think I'm on the right track so far with my toddler - I may regret this later, but I've been encouraging her to do things herself. She now puts her shoes on and takes them off by herself, and is learning how to dress herself. My often repeated line is "I bet you can do it yourself" when she asks for help - and much of the time she can!
DH has a technique for teaching people things that I think we will probably apply to homework and a lot of other things as the kids get older. He will demonstrate things but he won't do them for his student. For example when teaching someone to fold a paper plane, he will make one and his student will make one, and he won't touch the student's plane - even though it can be extremely tempting to "help." Similarly, he won't write on a student's school paper, though he may draw a diagram or equation, etc on scrap paper to demonstrate an idea.