New poll: Sanders up big in New Hampshire and Iowa

[heyjude]

Trump IS supported by the religious right.

[heyjude]

I had this conversation with a Berner over dinner recently. How is Bernie going to achieve this ambitious agenda when he still has to work within the confines of a likely divided government? She blinked and looked confused. This is my opinion of most Bernie fans. They don't seem to have a grasp of how government actually works. Or they have Bernie blinders on.

I felt the same way during the Nader days.

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2015 10:25:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Trump IS supported by the religious right.

It's weird though right? He used to be pretty liberal back in the 80s and 90s. I mean he's obviously changed his tune in recent years to get the conservative vote but I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks it's sincere.

[tacosforlife]

Sept 15, 2015 10:25:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Trump IS supported by the religious right.

Once again, I look at my dad.

He shares "Obama is a Muslim" and "We need prayer back in schools" memes. Yet he had an affair and left my mom for the other woman. He always went to church, but it used to seem like it was because he was raised going to church and he believed in God, so of course he went to church. But he's gotten weirdly evangelical in the last five years.

He is a blue collar white man who is scared of the changing world around him. He loves Trump. Basically, all questions about who likes Trump can be answered by looking at my dad.

[IIOY]

Sept 15, 2015 10:52:13 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:25:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Trump IS supported by the religious right.

He is a blue collar white man who is scared of the changing world around him. 

Nail >>> head

[msmerymac]

Sept 15, 2015 10:29:12 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I had this conversation with a Berner over dinner recently. How is Bernie going to achieve this ambitious agenda when he still has to work within the confines of a likely divided government? She blinked and looked confused. This is my opinion of most Bernie fans. They don't seem to have a grasp of how government actually works. Or they have Bernie blinders on.

I felt the same way during the Nader days.

Listen, there are two major ways to vote. 

Strategically. This person, while not ideal, is better than that person. This person will appoint decent SCOTUS justices. This person is more electable. 

Idealistically. This person shares almost all of my values and I like his/her ideas more than any other candidate. They might not get elected, but a vote for this person sends a message about what I'm looking for in politicians. 

I've voted both ways. Either one is fine by me. Pretty much anyone who has ever voted for Nader, or Kucinich, or Ron Paul, and some people who like Bernie are in the latter category. At least they are interested in politics. 

[heyjude]

Sept 15, 2015 10:56:29 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:29:12 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I had this conversation with a Berner over dinner recently. How is Bernie going to achieve this ambitious agenda when he still has to work within the confines of a likely divided government? She blinked and looked confused. This is my opinion of most Bernie fans. They don't seem to have a grasp of how government actually works. Or they have Bernie blinders on.

I felt the same way during the Nader days.

Listen, there are two major ways to vote. 

Strategically. This person, while not ideal, is better than that person. This person will appoint decent SCOTUS justices. This person is more electable. 

Idealistically. This person shares almost all of my values and I like his/her ideas more than any other candidate. They might not get elected, but a vote for this person sends a message about what I'm looking for in politicians. 

I've voted both ways. Either one is fine by me. Pretty much anyone who has ever voted for Nader, or Kucinich, or Ron Paul, and some people who like Bernie are in the latter category. At least they are interested in politics. 

The latter is how democrats lose.

[heyjude]

"Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good" is my favorite expression right now.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Sept 15, 2015 1:11:33 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Sept 14, 2015 23:25:55 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

I don't agree. Most of the diehard Bernie fans I know are super liberals, very far left, but all that I've talked to think Hillary would be good also, just not as progressive in curbing the wealth inequities.

Do you have anecdotes or an article that Bernie supporters are anti HRC as their main motivation?

The Bernie fans I know seem to despise HRC.

I don't know many Bernie fans,but I talked to someone the other day who supports the following, in this order: Bernie Sanders, Rand Paul, Ben Carson, and Carly Fiorina.

He despises HRC.

[heyjude]

Sept 15, 2015 11:30:54 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Sept 15, 2015 1:11:33 GMT -5 heyjude said:

The Bernie fans I know seem to despise HRC.

I don't know many Bernie fans,but I talked to someone the other day who supports the following, in this order: Bernie Sanders, Rand Paul, Ben Carson, and Carly Fiorina.

He despises HRC.

Yup.

Even though this makes zero sense.

[ttt]

Sept 15, 2015 10:52:13 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:25:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Trump IS supported by the religious right.

Once again, I look at my dad.

He shares "Obama is a Muslim" and "We need prayer back in schools" memes. Yet he had an affair and left my mom for the other woman. He always went to church, but it used to seem like it was because he was raised going to church and he believed in God, so of course he went to church. But he's gotten weirdly evangelical in the last five years.

He is a blue collar white man who is scared of the changing world around him. He loves Trump. Basically, all questions about who likes Trump can be answered by looking at my dad.

This sums it all up right here. 

[msmerymac]

Sept 15, 2015 11:06:32 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:56:29 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Listen, there are two major ways to vote. 

Strategically. This person, while not ideal, is better than that person. This person will appoint decent SCOTUS justices. This person is more electable. 

Idealistically. This person shares almost all of my values and I like his/her ideas more than any other candidate. They might not get elected, but a vote for this person sends a message about what I'm looking for in politicians. 

I've voted both ways. Either one is fine by me. Pretty much anyone who has ever voted for Nader, or Kucinich, or Ron Paul, and some people who like Bernie are in the latter category. At least they are interested in politics. 

The latter is how democrats lose.

Sure, but wanting the Dems to win over all other things is voting Strategically. Some people like Bernie and only Bernie. Or Nader and only Nader. And don't care if either the Democrats or Republicans win, because it's all the same. 

I don't believe it's all the same, I'm just saying that's the mindset of many people. 

[heyjude]

Sept 15, 2015 11:41:18 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:06:32 GMT -5 heyjude said:

The latter is how democrats lose.

Sure, but wanting the Dems to win over all other things is voting Strategically. Some people like Bernie and only Bernie. Or Nader and only Nader. And don't care if either the Democrats or Republicans win, because it's all the same. 

I don't believe it's all the same, I'm just saying that's the mindset of many people. 

Oh it is absolutely a mindset. It is that mindset that gave us Bush. For that, I find the mindset incomprehensible.

[FloFTW]

Sept 15, 2015 10:56:29 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:29:12 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I had this conversation with a Berner over dinner recently. How is Bernie going to achieve this ambitious agenda when he still has to work within the confines of a likely divided government? She blinked and looked confused. This is my opinion of most Bernie fans. They don't seem to have a grasp of how government actually works. Or they have Bernie blinders on.

I felt the same way during the Nader days.

Listen, there are two major ways to vote. 

Strategically. This person, while not ideal, is better than that person. This person will appoint decent SCOTUS justices. This person is more electable. 

Idealistically. This person shares almost all of my values and I like his/her ideas more than any other candidate. They might not get elected, but a vote for this person sends a message about what I'm looking for in politicians. 

I've voted both ways. Either one is fine by me. Pretty much anyone who has ever voted for Nader, or Kucinich, or Ron Paul, and some people who like Bernie are in the latter category. At least they are interested in politics. 

Yep. I live in Kucinich's district so I've had the pleasure of voting for someone idealistically multiple times and had them win and represent me - for Representative. It does feel good. It feels really good.

My husband is a total Berner right now. I keep feeding him articles about why this is dangerous strategy. This is how Democrats lose the big seats. I like what Sanders is saying, too. But there's no way he will get elected and there's no way for him to be an effective president. He's a Socialist, and idealistically, so am I...but a Socialist is just not gonna happen. Not when there are so many of tacosforlife 's dads around still.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Sept 15, 2015 11:36:10 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:30:54 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I don't know many Bernie fans,but I talked to someone the other day who supports the following, in this order: Bernie Sanders, Rand Paul, Ben Carson, and Carly Fiorina.

He despises HRC.

Yup.

Even though this makes zero sense.

It was on fb so I didn't want to push too much, but I really wanted to ask what policies Sanders & Paul both support that he agreed with. Or Sanders & any of the others.

[Deleted]

Why do we think anyone will get anything done? Unless one side wins prez, senate & house, it will be stalemate and fuckery for another 8 years. Any "bernie cant get it done" is equally appliable to HRC & Trump. Hrc nis slightly more realistic about it, & we can maybe trust her to do something shady to get her way, which im fine with lol

[ESF]

Sept 15, 2015 11:37:26 GMT -5 ttt said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:52:13 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Once again, I look at my dad.

He shares "Obama is a Muslim" and "We need prayer back in schools" memes. Yet he had an affair and left my mom for the other woman. He always went to church, but it used to seem like it was because he was raised going to church and he believed in God, so of course he went to church. But he's gotten weirdly evangelical in the last five years.

He is a blue collar white man who is scared of the changing world around him. He loves Trump. Basically, all questions about who likes Trump can be answered by looking at my dad.

This sums it all up right here. 

[msmerymac]

Sept 15, 2015 12:23:01 GMT -5 @eveer said:

Why do we think anyone will get anything done? Unless one side wins prez, senate & house, it will be stalemate and fuckery for another 8 years. Any "bernie cant get it done" is equally appliable to HRC & Trump. Hrc nis slightly more realistic about it, & we can maybe trust her to do something shady to get her way, which im fine with lol

I don't for a minute think Republicans in congress are going to go any easier on HRC than they have on Obama. 

[kadams767]

Sept 15, 2015 10:37:41 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:29:12 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I had this conversation with a Berner over dinner recently. How is Bernie going to achieve this ambitious agenda when he still has to work within the confines of a likely divided government? She blinked and looked confused. This is my opinion of most Bernie fans. They don't seem to have a grasp of how government actually works. Or they have Bernie blinders on.

I felt the same way during the Nader days.

Yeah.  Bernie fans are total dum dums who failed high school civics.

I know, you didn't say that (exactly).  But it's the impression you're giving off and I don't see why that's necessary.

It's not about being dumb.  These are serious questions that no one seems to be able to answer.  They're the same questions that ultimately crushed Paul Ryan last cycle, no?  Big plans, big ideas, but when it comes the actual mechanics and methodology of implementation, they come up empty.  It's awesome to want free healthcare and free college education and run your platform on those ideals.  But if you don't have a solid, workable plan or budget that make those ideals work, you are going to be in trouble, fast.      

[tacosforlife]

Sept 15, 2015 11:46:35 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:41:18 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sure, but wanting the Dems to win over all other things is voting Strategically. Some people like Bernie and only Bernie. Or Nader and only Nader. And don't care if either the Democrats or Republicans win, because it's all the same. 

I don't believe it's all the same, I'm just saying that's the mindset of many people. 

Oh it is absolutely a mindset. It is that mindset that gave us Bush. For that, I find the mindset incomprehensible.

RIGHT?!

I can sort of understand that mindset in 2000, when Bush campaigned as a compassionate conservative and Gore had about as much charisma as a piece of chalk.

But if anyone still thinks "they're all the same" after the invasion of Iraq and the appointment of John Roberts and Samuel Alito vs. Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, then that person is impervious to logic, IMO.

[jinkies]

Sept 15, 2015 12:32:07 GMT -5 incogneato said:

All the old ladies I know think "women are too emotional" to be president. Both dem and republican. Is that just my family/ILs?

I had a conversation a few months ago with a couple male coworkers. Or, more accurately, I was present for their conversation. 

The jist of it was that women are catty, backstabbing, and poor leaders. 

One of the men in this conversation leans very left (he is actually a Bernie supporter) and is married to a woman with PhD who has led companies. (He exempted his wife from this characterization).

I kind of feel like if *he* feels this way, there is little hope for the general public to vote in a female president next year. 

[kadams767]

Sept 15, 2015 13:23:05 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Sept 15, 2015 12:32:07 GMT -5 incogneato said:

All the old ladies I know think "women are too emotional" to be president. Both dem and republican. Is that just my family/ILs?

I had a conversation a few months ago with a couple male coworkers. Or, more accurately, I was present for their conversation. 

The jist of it was that women are catty, backstabbing, and poor leaders. 

One of the men in this conversation leans very left (he is actually a Bernie supporter) and is married to a woman with PhD who has led companies. (He exempted his wife from this characterization).

I kind of feel like if *he* feels this way, there is little hope for the general public to vote in a female president next year. 

I don't understand this in regard to HRC.  I don't think she is cold or unfeeling or anything, but are there really people who believe she is an emotional person?  I would say pretty much almost every move this woman has made since the early 90s has been calculated and, if I dare say it, cunning.  I would say almost every day of her adult life has been thought out to get her to the oval office. 

[oscarnerdjulief]

Sept 15, 2015 12:23:01 GMT -5 @eveer said:

Why do we think anyone will get anything done? Unless one side wins prez, senate & house, it will be stalemate and fuckery for another 8 years. Any "bernie cant get it done" is equally appliable to HRC & Trump. Hrc nis slightly more realistic about it, & we can maybe trust her to do something shady to get her way, which im fine with lol

The bolded is spot-on.  If people really wanted individuals to come together and get things done, they'd vote for a Republican because the House and Senate is Republican.  (I know the Senate can change, but it's more of a tossup at this point than I would have expected.  There's still a route for Rs to keep control.)

[oscarnerdjulief]

Sept 15, 2015 14:07:51 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Sept 15, 2015 13:23:05 GMT -5 jinkies said:

I had a conversation a few months ago with a couple male coworkers. Or, more accurately, I was present for their conversation. 

The jist of it was that women are catty, backstabbing, and poor leaders. 

One of the men in this conversation leans very left (he is actually a Bernie supporter) and is married to a woman with PhD who has led companies. (He exempted his wife from this characterization).

I kind of feel like if *he* feels this way, there is little hope for the general public to vote in a female president next year. 

I don't understand this in regard to HRC.  I don't think she is cold or unfeeling or anything, but are there really people who believe she is an emotional person?  I would say pretty much almost every move this woman has made since the early 90s has been calculated and, if I dare say it, cunning.  I would say almost every day of her adult life has been thought out to get her to the oval office. 

I so agree, and the way she got positive approval ratings because her husband cheated on her is just obscene.

When she had that ABC episode with that extremely overly modulated voice, I just rolled my eyes.  Everything she does is so calculated; I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea had her kid when she did so that Hillary could paint herself as a grandma.  I'm as serious as a heart attack with that statement.

Calculating and entitled are the two words I'd use to describe her---also in the bubble.

[kadams767]

Sept 15, 2015 14:38:01 GMT -5 oscarnerdjulief said:

Sept 15, 2015 14:07:51 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

I don't understand this in regard to HRC.  I don't think she is cold or unfeeling or anything, but are there really people who believe she is an emotional person?  I would say pretty much almost every move this woman has made since the early 90s has been calculated and, if I dare say it, cunning.  I would say almost every day of her adult life has been thought out to get her to the oval office. 

I so agree, and the way she got positive approval ratings because her husband cheated on her is just obscene.

When she had that ABC episode with that extremely overly modulated voice, I just rolled my eyes.  Everything she does is so calculated; I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea had her kid when she did so that Hillary could paint herself as a grandma.  I'm as serious as a heart attack with that statement.

Calculating and entitled are the two words I'd use to describe her---also in the bubble.

Well, we aren't exactly in agreement.  I see her lack of visible emotion as a positive, honestly.  I don't use calculating as an insult.  And I don't really see her as entitled.  Maybe I am naive, and yes she certainly is privileged, but she's worked damn hard to get where she is and I think she's earned it.

[debatethis]

Interestingly enough, this was just shared by an evangelical blogger I follow. I think, at least from observing my FB feed (lol) which is full of far right evangelical voters, Bernie is gaining traction with them as well.
www.christiantoday.com/article/could.us.evangelicals.vote.for.bernie.sanders.i.did.and.it.could.happen.again/64518.htm

In 2006 I wasn't exactly "feeling the Bern" when I voted for Bernie Sanders in the US Senate Election for one of Vermont's two seats. He was simply the most appealing candidate when compared to a ludicrously wealthy Republican businessman and the representatives from the "Marijuana Party" and the "Anti-Bush Party".

As a disenchanted Republican clinging to my evangelical Christian faith in a state that actually isn't as liberal as many suspect, I was won over by Sanders' reputation for diligently governing by enacting policies that improved the quality of life for his constituents—especially the poor and working poor.

Comparing the Sanders campaign of 2006 to his bid for the Democratic nomination in America's 2016 presidential election, the main difference is the absence of BBQ chicken dinners at the local park. Rather, there are rallies with upwards of 20,000 people at a time.

The policy goals, communication style, and wild wisps of white hair are more or less the same as before. It's possible that the political landscape is finally ready for a figure like Sanders, even for a segment of the evangelical voting bloc that has typically belonged to Republicans.

As Sanders prepares to speak at the conservative bastion of Liberty University, his policies line up surprisingly well with the values of many millennial evangelical voters and, for good measure, Catholic teachings.

That isn't to say that the majority of evangelicals will defect from the Republican Party when they "feel the Bern". The majority will stay put.

Rather, Sanders is positioned to prompt a sizeable minority of Christian voters, especially Millennials, to do what seemed unthinkable at the height of the Tea Party movement in 2010: vote for a socialist.

Mind you, Sanders is a Democratic socialist, far from a Soviet Era style dictator and, arguably, different from a "pure" socialist in the first place. However, the Tea Party stoked the fears of Christians on the right by calling President Obama, a centrist Democrat if there ever was one, an extreme socialist.

The idea of an extreme socialist president called to mind images of Christian schools being shut down, preachers being tossed into jail, and laws banning the sale and reading of the Bible. Within this worldview, a larger socialist government is just a single piece of legislation away from banning Christianity altogether in America.

When Federal Marshals jailed county clerk Kim Davis for refusing to follow the Supreme Court's ruling to issue same sex marriage licenses, she became the sign of what's coming to America when "big government" goes out of control persecuting Christians.
Also by this author

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Today, Sanders bears the label of big government socialist proudly. In fact, he'd probably say, "Yeah, but..." and then go on a tirade about fixing income inequality, bringing jobs back to America, raising the minimum wage, addressing climate change, and repairing our infrastructure. The terror of five years ago has become a non-story with Sanders who would rather rant about policy than argue with culture warriors.

As Sanders doggedly presses forward by focusing on what he will do rather than what his opponents can't, he stands to at least win a hearing among evangelical voters, especially the particularly large Millennial cohort in America that leans strongly Democrat even if evangelicals as a whole remain majority Republican.

Sanders won't win many points among the bulk of evangelical voters since he won't ban abortion, but his proposal to expand health care would put a significant dent in abortions by providing wider access to contraception (a proven policy even in America) and abortion isn't a make or break issue among younger evangelicals. His vocal opposition to the Iraq War appeals to the evangelical pacifists and opponents of militarism. While Sanders has long supported same sex marriage, many younger evangelicals simply aren't galvanized by this issue. Rather, they're concerned about finding affordable healthcare, finding better jobs, and caring for God's creation. Most importantly, they want the government to help.

For evangelicals concerned about social justice issues, it's hard to ignore income inequality, the need to bring manufacturing jobs back to America's impoverished neighborhoods, and the need to increase the minimum wage. For voters prioritizing these issues, Sanders and his version of Democratic socialism may lose its frightening red veneer.

At this point in the election Sanders is still a long shot in a volatile primary season. Good heavens, Donald Trump is still the Republican front runner, and we can only pray that won't last. A lot can change in a month or two—please?

However, if Sanders does manage to keep his campaign alive, he may provide an important turning point in evangelical demographics as the values of younger voters unfazed by a socialist further carve up an already fragmented movement. Perhaps he'll even convince Republican strategists that you can't win an election by rallying the evangelical camp with homophobia, xenophobia, and militarism.

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2015 13:04:59 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sept 15, 2015 12:23:01 GMT -5 @eveer said:

Why do we think anyone will get anything done? Unless one side wins prez, senate & house, it will be stalemate and fuckery for another 8 years. Any "bernie cant get it done" is equally appliable to HRC & Trump. Hrc nis slightly more realistic about it, & we can maybe trust her to do something shady to get her way, which im fine with lol

I don't for a minute think Republicans in congress are going to go any easier on HRC than they have on Obama. 

Me neither, but HRC is cunning enough and hardened by years of the Rs shit throwing. I don't like her, nor trust her as much as Bernie, but I do think she will get more done because she is basically titanium lol. Obama spent ages under the idiotic impression he could work with the Rs. HRC will know from the off start that it will not be working with, it will be manipulating, underhand deals, and using the Prez power in whatever way she can to force her stuff through. And as I said, I am fine with this - 8 years of deliberately stalling Obama just to be dicks? Hillary will pay that back in spades. This is not the ideal way, but sometimes its the only way. So for me, I will vote Bernie if I can, and if HRC wins, I will be fine with that too.

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2015 13:23:05 GMT -5 jinkies said:

I had a conversation a few months ago with a couple male coworkers. Or, more accurately, I was present for their conversation. 

The jist of it was that women are catty, backstabbing, and poor leaders. 

One of the men in this conversation leans very left (he is actually a Bernie supporter) and is married to a woman with PhD who has led companies. (He exempted his wife from this characterization).

I kind of feel like if *he* feels this way, there is little hope for the general public to vote in a female president next year. 

This right here describes the office my DH works in that is 98% men. They gossip and get butthurt like a bunch of 3rd graders.