Post by irishbride2 on Oct 13, 2015 16:38:06 GMT -5
I am teaching both my kids the same manors. Both will hold doors and be polite.
I'm on a school trip right now and the tour guide told the girls to leave their bags and the boys would carry them to the bus for them. That kind of crap drives me nuts. Luckily we stepped in and said if anyone needs any help to let us know and we will or if anyone wants to help another classmate they can, but we were not assigning chores by gender. The girls in my group were shocked that they were initially being told to not handle their own things. A few asked me later by the tour guide said that lol.
Also lofl at it being bad to teach your son not to hit women but telling them to hit back at men/boys who hit them.
Honestly, it's great and all that people care about the society at large and the message it sends but my kid and his future is not here to be our test subject. I'll be damned if he a) ends up being picked on and just takes it (or doesn't stand up for his friends or sister) or b) ends up in some viral article with his future all fucked up because he hit some bad ass girl who hit him first. I have a very bitch please reaction to all of that. He's my priority. Sorrynotsorry.
I need to also add that I don't like any of these aforementioned chivalry lessons apparently being taught in some classrooms. I don't think that's right place or the right person (a teacher). I want to decide--particularly if I had a daughter--how these lessons are imparted, because I would want it done right and would want it made clear to her that having those expectations doesn't somehow make her weaker or less than. I definitely do not trust a teacher who thinks it's okay to implement these rules to explain that properly. I consider these things part of how to behave in a romantic relationship, and outside of the biological/scientific lessons that are taught in sex ed (i.e. wear a condom!), that isn't anything I think should be taught in school. Additionally, I really wouldn't want my child in these classroom settings, because my guess is that these teachers are some of the same ones who are biased toward boys in terms of STEM subjects. A teacher that instructs boys to carry the girls' bags is almost certainly putting some other things out there, whether explicitly or implicitly, that wouldn't sit well with me.
pennypenny, I remember it in the context of the feminist backlash to D'Jango Unchained, in that how dare Kerry Washington play the literal damsel in distressed rescued at the end by a prince on horseback and the answer was that black women have NEVER been given the image of a delicate, beautiful woman worthy of protection so YES GODDAMN IT! black women should celebrate the damsel in distress trope and let rich, white women fight over the proper feminism of it.
Really? I don't even remember that being mentioned in the intersectional feminism thread, although I never saw the movie, so maybe I was just oblivious to that part.
Anyway, I agree with some of the rest. I just feel like this isn't my issue and that article has nothing to do with me. I consider myself a feminist, but I am very clear that I'm a black feminist and that there is a difference. I like being catered to and that's how my husband was raised, and how we've raised DS. If we'd raised a young woman, we would have raised her to have those expectations. When your son isn't automatically viewed as a thug just for walking down the street with a shirt that has a hood attached, then I guess you have the luxury of not caring whether he is a gentlemen or not. Frankly, I wouldn't know. When the world puts you on a pedestal and thinks of you as femininity personified, then I guess you have the luxury of not caring whether men open doors for you. I wouldn't have a clue. So I guess good for everyone that has the luxury of not rearing their boys to be more respectful toward women, because ultimately, those boys probably rarely deal with women clutching their purses when they step on an elevator, so it doesn't matter how they act on one either way *shrug*.
Also, I did teach my son to hit back if he was hit, but that rule did not apply to girls/women. Our rule is you don't hit unless someone hits you first and if that someone is a girl, then you still don't hit. I'll be damned if my kid stands around to be some bad ass kid's punching bag, but hey, good for all the pacifists out there--the world needs more of you lol. I do know this is flameful on GBCN, but guess how many fucks I give? Hint: It's a low, round number.
Thank you for this post. It really helped me understand the way women of color may view this issue differently. It gave me a lot to think about.
I keep coming back trying to think of what to say in response to the intersectional femisism post. I guess all I have right now is thanks for linking that. It gives me a different perspective and a lot to think about and examine.
Still not teaching my kids to hit anyone, I'm okay with being teased for being a pacifist.
Wellllll, I knowwww you were allll waiting for me in here. LOLLL
cookiemdough wrote this in the intersectional feminism thread, and it needs re-reading:
The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.
I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.
I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.
Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since this time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
This sort of relates to what I said earlier. Parents who are teaching their sons not to be "gentlemen" need to realize that there is a large segment of the female population, of every color, that will be turned off by the behavior. I am teaching my daughters not to even give a second thought to a man who has so little respect for her that he can't even hold the door open for her or open her car door. He isn't good enough for her. Perhaps men being raised this way are fine with that and don't want a woman that wants to be treated that way, but I think deep down men want a lady and some of these boys aren't even going to realize why all the "ladies" think less of him - and it won't be their fault because their moms have taught them women don't really want that.
As far as racism goes, I can totally understand feeling disrespected. I don't know how to fix that when, as this thread proves, the majority of white women aren't teaching their sons to treat women differently.
Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since tiihis time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
I feel the same way.
Kinda on the same subject, but do white fathers of girls do the daddy-daughter dates? Take your little girl out all dressed up, go somewhere nice (a "nice" restaurant or something) and the dad show her how a man should treat her (opening the door, paying for the meal, etc)? I know a few black fathers who do this.
Yes. My husband does this with my girls. But I am not the norm. When bringing it up around non-Christian, liberal friends, they find the idea creepy.
Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since this time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
I feel the same way.
Kinda on the same subject, but do white fathers of girls do the daddy-daughter dates? Take your little girl out all dressed up, go somewhere nice (a "nice" restaurant or something) and the dad show her how a man should treat her (opening the door, paying for the meal, etc)? I know a few black fathers who do this.
In the south (at least in my area) it's not uncommon for white dads to do the daddy date thing. My daughter is getting to that age and I have seen a few Daddy date pics on FB.
Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since this time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
I feel the same way.
Kinda on the same subject, but do white fathers of girls do the daddy-daughter dates? Take your little girl out all dressed up, go somewhere nice (a "nice" restaurant or something) and the dad show her how a man should treat her (opening the door, paying for the meal, etc)? I know a few black fathers who do this.
It's pretty common among my set of friends, including the white families. Our community center hosts a father/ daughter dance once a year too.
Kinda on the same subject, but do white fathers of girls do the daddy-daughter dates? Take your little girl out all dressed up, go somewhere nice (a "nice" restaurant or something) and the dad show her how a man should treat her (opening the door, paying for the meal, etc)? I know a few black fathers who do this.
Yes. My husband does this with my girls. But I am not the norm. When bringing it up around non-Christian, liberal friends, they find the idea creepy.
ETA: I am in the Midwest.
I don't find daddy/daughter time creepy, though calling it a date is a little off putting. I went out to eat or to the park or wherever with my dad a lot as a kid. It was fun and a good way to strengthen our bond.
I find the daddys little girl shit a bit too in your face and sexualized anyway
I think there is a difference between the father-daughter dance (at least the special I saw on tv) and what I am talking about. I can't remember the specifics of the dance, but I found it hella creepy. I am not talking about that.
Are you talking about Purity Balls? Those are super creepy and gross imho.
I think people equate the daddy-daughter date thing to the purity movement and that is what they find creepy. Perhaps the word "date" makes it creepy, too But I call it a date when I am one-on-one with my daughter or DH with my sons. And we don't do the whole purity ring stuff. We just feel it is important for each child to go on dates with their parents. With the girls it is fun for them to wear a pretty dress and be treated like mommy by daddy. As they grow up it becomes even more important for Daddy to teach them how they deserve to be treated by men.
I don't find daddy/daughter time creepy, though calling it a date is a little off putting. I went out to eat or to the park or wherever with my dad a lot as a kid. It was fun and a good way to strengthen our bond.
Apparently I'm creepy
I have "dates" with the boys. We go out, eat a meal and attempt to drive home some shred of civility into them.
But we have "play dates" with kids. I have a monthly "breakfast date" with my BFF. I don't think "date" necessarily means sex/romance. It's time out side for someone.
And it is in a way practice for when they socialize with females. I do expect them to be more civilized around girls. Not just girls they are perusing romantically.
That's why I said "a little off putting" and not creepy. I know my issues with the term daddy daughter date is because of the association with activities such as Purity Balls.
Post by jeaniebueller on Oct 13, 2015 19:35:36 GMT -5
AW, I don't know if it's that some of us aren't raising their boys to treat women "differently," but to treat everyone with the same respect. You can hold a door open for anyone regardless of sex, etc. Basically treat everyone with kindness and respect.
Kinda on the same subject, but do white fathers of girls do the daddy-daughter dates? Take your little girl out all dressed up, go somewhere nice (a "nice" restaurant or something) and the dad show her how a man should treat her (opening the door, paying for the meal, etc)? I know a few black fathers who do this.
Yes. My husband does this with my girls. But I am not the norm. When bringing it up around non-Christian, liberal friends, they find the idea creepy.
ETA: I am in the Midwest.
As a non-Christian, liberal, from the Midwest, I don't find this creepy. Virtually every dad I know does this sort of thing.
Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since this time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
I feel the same way.
Kinda on the same subject, but do white fathers of girls do the daddy-daughter dates? Take your little girl out all dressed up, go somewhere nice (a "nice" restaurant or something) and the dad show her how a man should treat her (opening the door, paying for the meal, etc)? I know a few black fathers who do this.
My dad did when I was 8,and I didn't like it even then. I had to sit in the car until he opened the door, and I thought it was stupid.
And you can't blame a feminist mom since she'd been dead a couple years, and my gramma was super into chivalry
I find the daddys little girl shit a bit too in your face and sexualized anyway
I think there is a difference between the father-daughter dance (at least the special I saw on tv) and what I am talking about. I can't remember the specifics of the dance, but I found it hella creepy. I am not talking about that.
A couple of my friends here do stuff like this, and it's not that weird. The mom was doing a girl's night out and so the dad took his daughter to the movies and her favorite restaurant. I think it's important for dads and daughters to bond with activities like this.
AW, I don't know if it's that some of us aren't raising their boys to treat women "differently," but to treat everyone with the same respect. You can hold a door open for anyone regardless of sex, etc. Basically treat everyone with kindness and respect.
I get that and I am teaching my children the same. I hold the door open for people, regardless of gender, too.
But I am also teaching my boys that there are different rules around women. For example, you don't speak to women the way you talk to your "bros". You don't burp or fart in the presence of ladies like you may when you're in a room full of men. There is a man and a woman who both look like they need your seat more than you do - you offer to the woman first. Why? Women ARE different than men. They are special. They are a future mother or wife to someone, or perhaps already are someone's mother or wife. Treat them like you would expect your sisters or mother to be treated. They are NOT the same as your male friends and deserve to be treated with a different kind of respect.
Sure, everyone deserves respect. What that means just looks different when dealing with men and women. There are different rules for what is and isn't acceptable.
There are daddy/daughter dances here. They are pretty common.
But I tend to fall on the opposite of a lot of the white women on the board on these issues and related issues. I expect to be treated a certain way because I am a (fucking) lady, (damn it).
Post by laurenpetro on Oct 13, 2015 20:05:41 GMT -5
I want to know where the assumption started that everyone thinks daddy/daughter days are looked down upon by people. Unless the father is looking at his daughter the way Huckabee was eye-fucking Kim Davis then I don't see the problem.
I will add that every time this topic comes up and folks rush in all mad waving their feminist flag, talking about how they aren't helpless and blahblahblah, I think about the things Cookie wrote and get pissed off.
It may sound trite, but I think a lot about the intersectional feminism thread when I apply feminist principles to my own life and consider how my battles may be perceived across racial lines.* That was such a great read for increasing understanding.
*mostly at the moment they're about equal pay for women, so I'd love to hope that would apply to women of all races, though of course I'm aware of the statistics
I'm team 'I like doors being held open for me.' But I am also team 'Hold the doors open for EVERYONE!' My seven year old girl holds the door open for everyone. I love it. People sometimes do a double take. My H always holds the door open for me, and I would be put off if he didn't. Maybe revoke my feminist card, oh well. He holds the door open for everyone. I get annoyed when doors aren't held open. Perhaps because I always try to do it for others. I think it's a nice thing to do.