Intersectional feminism

[Wrath0fKuus]

Can we have a thread here where women of color talk about stuff feminism should address?  Like maybe this one?

[zelda25]

Mar 12, 2015 21:53:16 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I'll stop now.

Don't.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using proboards

[wrathofkuus]

I have heard this from many black women, that they see themselves as black first, woman second. Given what that says about which marginalized class experience is more severe, I can see why even benevolent sexism that targets you wouldn't be your top priority.

[cookiemdough]

Ditto everything Sou said. I will try to add once I get on train this morning.

[Deleted]

This is an interesting topic.

I will say that being a feminist wasn't really on my radar until the past few years.

Even growing up my mom taught me "black pride!" But never so much a "woman's pride!" message.

I will say my perception is that most of the discrimination or struggles I've had (which are minor to some people's discrimination) have been tied to my race and not my sex (at least in my mind).

But I did have a very successful black male doctor give me a pep talk recently that started out with "you're black and you're a woman so you already have 2 strikes against you when you walk in to the hospital and say you're a doctor." I definitely took that to heart.

Now that I'm going in to women's health I am definitely more invested and interested in feminism, particularly access to abortions, but if you would've asked me the same question 10 years ago I probably wouldn't have had feminism as one of my top 5 issues I'm invested in, while race relations has always been at the top for me personally.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

When I teach intercultural/gendered communication and we get to intersection, I have my students score themselves: +1 for white, male, straight, middle-class, -1 for black, female, gay, poor. It's really eye-opening for them, especially to see how they score against their classmates. I'm going to try to find some articles on what sou is talking about -- how black women historically aren't treated as delicate flowers -- to share next semester.

[cookiemdough]

Mar 13, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

But it's not so wide that we aren't fighting for many of the same things. And given the acceptance of issues of motherhood into mainstream feminism, which ties so very closely to issues of socioeconomic disenfranchisement, I think there is a lot of overlap between what sou says her top issues are and what the top issues of feminists are.

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.

[IIOY]

Mar 13, 2015 8:26:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Mar 13, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

But it's not so wide that we aren't fighting for many of the same things. And given the acceptance of issues of motherhood into mainstream feminism, which ties so very closely to issues of socioeconomic disenfranchisement, I think there is a lot of overlap between what sou says her top issues are and what the top issues of feminists are.

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.

This is really powerful.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 8:26:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Mar 13, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

But it's not so wide that we aren't fighting for many of the same things. And given the acceptance of issues of motherhood into mainstream feminism, which ties so very closely to issues of socioeconomic disenfranchisement, I think there is a lot of overlap between what sou says her top issues are and what the top issues of feminists are.

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.

Can I get an Amen!

[josieposy]

I have noticed that every single pro-life billboard in my state (that I have seen anyway) features a white baby. That didn't stick out to me until like the 400th time I saw them.

[Deleted]

It isn't just about that $0.30 either.

www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2010/03/09/Study-finds-median-wealth-for-single-black-women-at-5/stories/201003090163

[cattledogkisses]

Mar 13, 2015 8:26:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Mar 13, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

But it's not so wide that we aren't fighting for many of the same things. And given the acceptance of issues of motherhood into mainstream feminism, which ties so very closely to issues of socioeconomic disenfranchisement, I think there is a lot of overlap between what sou says her top issues are and what the top issues of feminists are.

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.

This is really powerful. I will admit that it never would have occurred to me that this was a white woman issue (and I know that's my privilege showing), but this makes complete and total sense. Thank you. 

[ringstrue]

Can I ask a question about worth? There are fears I know in white women of being the "dumb girl" the "dumb blonde" or really just can't be AS smart or AS capable because of your hairstyle and clothing choices. Do black woman have similar fears or concerns when it comes to working in groups or when you are the only women in a room of men or attaining certain career goals? Or is that more of a "lucky" problem to have in the grand scheme of things too?

[Deleted]

I think cookiemdough just created a post that will live on and be C&Pd in perpetuity and on other platforms.  :Y:

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 9:55:06 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

Mar 13, 2015 9:33:16 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

Can I ask a question about worth? There are fears I know in white women of being the "dumb girl" the "dumb blonde" or really just can't be AS smart or AS capable because of your hairstyle and clothing choices. Do black woman have similar fears or concerns when it comes to working in groups or when you are the only women in a room of men or attaining certain career goals? Or is that more of a "lucky" problem to have in the grand scheme of things too?

When white men see me as less worthy, I don't think it's because I'm a woman, I think it's because I'm black.  And I feel pretty certain I'm correct. 

Yes! I was trying to articulate this but couldn't come up with how to say it.

I was thinking, maybe if I were ever in a professional setting in which there were all black men and I was the only black female maybe I'd feel differently. But unfortunately that has never happened (a room full of black male doctors yes please) and if it did I think I'd be too proud and happy to even be worried about feeling dumb.

[zelda25]

Mar 13, 2015 8:26:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Mar 13, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

But it's not so wide that we aren't fighting for many of the same things. And given the acceptance of issues of motherhood into mainstream feminism, which ties so very closely to issues of socioeconomic disenfranchisement, I think there is a lot of overlap between what sou says her top issues are and what the top issues of feminists are.

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.

Thank you for this. I know it's not your job to explain this shit to me, but I appreciate this very much.

I'm at a loss as to where to go from here.

[tiramisu]

Thank you for sharing your perspectives and stories. cookiemdough yours was especially powerful and I'm wondering if it would be okay for me to use it, or at least parts of it, in the leadership class I teach. I try to teach about and spark thought about social justice issues, but I'm a white woman and despite everything I've learned, it only goes so far. Experiences, thoughts, etc. from all of you are so powerful and help more than just what I can come up with.

[aurora]

cookiemdough, your piece is really eloquent. I want to cry about the differences in perception of white women's babies vs. black women's babies. And @songforyou, the example of the media's portrayal of missing white women vs. missing black women is also a horrifying example.

Thank you for helping me to understand. I can absolutely see why your first priority is to fight for racial justice before gender justice.

[origami]

Mar 13, 2015 10:16:35 GMT -5 Stan said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:08:35 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Please dialogue with me. I'm trying to say that before I joined the military I experienced the kind of valued and protected feelings you're talking about. And I was sexually assaulted as a civilian. But the concerted effort by everyone to say that my military attacker was more important than me, well, I can't explain it. It was worse than the assault itself. I'm not dismissing, or at least not trying to dismiss, anyone's experience. I'm just saying that I think the lines are closer between hostile and benevolent sexism than it feels like they are.

I think you meant to post this in a different thread.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 10:15:40 GMT -5 aurora said:

cookiemdough, your piece is really eloquent. I want to cry about the differences in perception of white women's babies vs. black women's babies. And @songforyou, the example of the media's portrayal of missing white women vs. missing black women is also a horrifying example.

Thank you for helping me to understand. I can absolutely see why your first priority is to fight for racial justice before gender justice.

And it's not just women either.

Black children go missing and no one cares. That baffles me.

[iammalcolmx]

[cookiemdough]

Mar 13, 2015 9:51:22 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

It doesn't really apply on proboards, but I'll say it anyway--You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to cookiemdough again.  I'll just add to this list of differences, that when white women go missing, people care. We can all rattle names like Natalee Holloway, but when black women go missing, who cares?  I never even hear about it, by and large, except for email forwards and posts on my AA message board.  And when it does make the news, the bias is so real--the bias-laden implications about clubbing or a boyfriend or being a single parent--it's not the same oh my God, this girl is missing, but more like, what the hell did this black gal go and get herself into?

Yes!!!! The emphasis on missing persons drives me crazy every.single.time. Admittedly the imbalanced reporting makes me ragey and so my emotions are at conflict. I feel for the families because no one should have to endure that kind of pain, but it never fails for me to have one moment of wonder at the imbalanced level of national hysteria that goes along with a missing white woman or girl. I say girl because I can't remember the last time the loss of a little white boy made the news and I know it must happen.

[zelda25]

Mar 13, 2015 10:24:28 GMT -5 Stan said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:19:05 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I think I'm tired of you bringing every thread no matter the topic back to you and the military. If you need help getting over what has happened to you, seek out a counselor, please. But THIS thread is about the intersectionalism of feminism, not Stan's same story about how all the military men want her and hit on her and whatnot. That is a conversation for a different thread. Start it and let this one stay on topic please. Thanks in advance. 

I was trying to talk with cookie about one of her points. And the military is not aplace where any women are protected or elevated. And I don't know where I brought up that all the military men "want" me. I was sexually assaulted by one. But I will remove my perspective from the thread.

You're not talking with cookie about one of her points, though. You're taking one of her (outrageous and heartbreaking) points and trying to shoehorn it into your own narrative, which has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with what she said.

This isn't about your (white) experience in the military.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 13, 2015 9:18:05 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Which leads me to a bit of a tangent, re: black men who see black women as angry and unreasonable and therefore undateable/not marriage material, but see white women as easier to get along with, more agreeable etc. 

My younger BIL expressed this (he was 16 at the time). I just about slapped him. The kid is being raised so white that I worry about him. A lot. If he ever moves from here he's going to have major culture shock.

[aurora]

Mar 13, 2015 10:23:45 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:15:40 GMT -5 aurora said:

cookiemdough, your piece is really eloquent. I want to cry about the differences in perception of white women's babies vs. black women's babies. And @songforyou, the example of the media's portrayal of missing white women vs. missing black women is also a horrifying example.

Thank you for helping me to understand. I can absolutely see why your first priority is to fight for racial justice before gender justice.

And it's not just women either.

Black children go missing and no one cares. That baffles me.

(sincerely, not sarcastically)

[pixy0stix]

Stan, this isn't the thread to raise your issues.

[Wrath0fKuus]

Mar 13, 2015 10:24:28 GMT -5 Stan said:

Mar 13, 2015 10:19:05 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I think I'm tired of you bringing every thread no matter the topic back to you and the military. If you need help getting over what has happened to you, seek out a counselor, please. But THIS thread is about the intersectionalism of feminism, not Stan's same story about how all the military men want her and hit on her and whatnot. That is a conversation for a different thread. Start it and let this one stay on topic please. Thanks in advance. 

I was trying to talk with ETA: you, not cookie about one of your points. And the military is not aplace where any women are protected or elevated. And I don't know where I brought up that all the military men "want" me. I was sexually assaulted by one. But I will remove my perspective from the thread.

We can absolutely have a separate thread about your perspective, Stan.  But we need threads specifically for the perspectives of women of color without us sharing our perspectives, since as we all know they tend to get talked over and drowned out by white feminism.

[downtoearth]

Mar 13, 2015 9:58:36 GMT -5 @wandering said:

Mar 13, 2015 9:55:06 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

When white men see me as less worthy, I don't think it's because I'm a woman, I think it's because I'm black.  And I feel pretty certain I'm correct. 

Yes! I was trying to articulate this but couldn't come up with how to say it.

I was thinking, maybe if I were ever in a professional setting in which there were all black men and I was the only black female maybe I'd feel differently. But unfortunately that has never happened (a room full of black male doctors yes please) and if it did I think I'd be too proud and happy to even be worried about feeling dumb.

That's pretty awesome and powerful that black pride would win out in a room of all black male doctors with one female doctor.

That does not happen in a room of all white male professionals and one white female professional.  We don't do the white-pride thing because white is majority in professional settings, so then the women usually feels the animosity in the room.

[downtoearth]

Mar 13, 2015 8:35:51 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

It isn't just about that $0.30 either.

www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2010/03/09/Study-finds-median-wealth-for-single-black-women-at-5/stories/201003090163

Everyone should read this.  Shocking. Thanks for posting it HBC.

[meshaliuknits]

Mar 13, 2015 8:35:51 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

It isn't just about that $0.30 either.

www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2010/03/09/Study-finds-median-wealth-for-single-black-women-at-5/stories/201003090163

Five damned dollars. FFS.