Dressing like Mexican. Facebook

[aurora]

Nov 2, 2015 10:18:53 GMT -5 @mx said:

...
I have a few wax cloth pencil skirts that I had tailored in Nigeria. I wear them to work with heels and a blouse. I'm not dressing up as an African. I like the prints and appreciate what young designers in West Africa are doing with them. But I'm not wearing them as a costume. I'm wearing them as a skirt. ...

Oh, gosh, I hadn't even thought of this. My cousin lived in Ghana for 6 months and bought me a lovely skirt handmade in the style of her community by one of the seamstresses in the village. Through all of this conversation it hadn't even occurred to me that someone might have looked at me wearing this skirt and thought that I was trying to appropriate Ghanese culture. (Like @mx, I wear it as a skirt, not a costume. And certainly not with blackface.)

[ksun]

You should invite them to join my neighborhood bunco group. They can host in May for Cinco de Mayo night.

[aurora]

Nov 2, 2015 13:25:10 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Regarding the Pope/mobile kid - the Pope himself was really pleased when a baby Pope was presented to him. So I think that pretty much answers the question.

www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/09/28/pope-francis-meets-baby-pope/72964596/

I think this is a key point, though. There is one single person (at a time) who can look at that kid and say "not offended." Same as President, for example. If a 5-year-old kid wanted to dress up as Barack Obama (with a mask, not blackface) because (s)he wants to be President someday and that's the only President (s)he's ever known, that feels less problematic than the clearly problematic wanting to dress up as "a black person." In my example, it's not the kid wanting to take on a culture in which there could be a myriad of ways that millions of people in that culture could be offended. It's wanting to take on a specific role (Pope, President) that can theoretically be blessed by the person who currently happens to be in that role.

But, I open the door to the possibility that I may be being an ass here and if so would welcome comments.

[pixy0stix]

If you are wearing something from another culture as a COSTUME it is offensive. End stop. There is no "but what about..."

If you are in another country and the people that are in the majority give you something to wear then by all means wear it to celebrate their festival.

If you are Scottish and wear a Scottish kilt then you are celebrating your OWN heritage. If you are not scottish, and wear a kilt to a scottish festival to celebrate the culture, you are still ok.

However, if you show up, as a white person, wearing a serape, fake walrus mustache and a sombrero to a Mexican celebration... well, I can't help you there.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2015 11:29:26 GMT -5 mr+ms said:

So was the kid in popemobile totes cool? Can we have fun without making fun of something? Just thinking out loud. I dunno, maybe we can't.

The forever 21 Navajo print is probably the fashion equivalent of Taco Bell as Mexican food. Is Taco Bell offensive? What went on when their slogan was Make a run for the border? It feels like we're more relaxed about food.

Dressing like the pope is fine because it's a person
Dressing like Morgan freeman without blackface is fine. Boring but fine. He is a guy. So you wear his fashion style.
My friend went as Michael Jackson thriller with his wife. No black face. You could still tell what they were dressed as.

[wawa]

there was a teen kid I saw TOTing dressed as the president. Slim cut dark suit, blue tie, white shirt, rubber Obama mask.

I had weird feels about it thanks to all you. But nothing I saw indicated it was meant disrespectfully. He was neatly dressed and not acting a fool. And better the rubber mask than face paint, right? But....yeah. Not sure what my point is other than that Rubber masks are weird.

[heyjude]

Baby Pope feels okay but I'm not sure why.

Is a non practicing kid dressed as baby Muhammed, Jesus, Buddha, or Joseph Smith okay?

The pope is a title holder rather than a fixed person; does that make a partial difference?

[elleblue]

I think what it boils down to is intent. Wearing a fake moustache, sombrero, and a poncho is dressing up as a stereotype that mocks Mexicans and those of Mexican descent. As opposed to doing something like wearing a cheongsam dress to a fancy Lunar New Year celebration isn't making a mockery of Chinese culture and dress. If you're outfitting yourself in a particular way because you find it silly and funny, chances are you're crossing a line.

[ttt]

If you're wearing another cultures clothing in a way that's designed to make people laugh, you're being offensive.

[ttt]

Nov 2, 2015 17:27:00 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I think what it boils down to is intent. Wearing a fake moustache, sombrero, and a poncho is dressing up as a stereotype that mocks Mexicans and those of Mexican descent. As opposed to doing something like wearing a cheongsam dress to a fancy Lunar New Year celebration isn't making a mockery of Chinese culture and dress. If you're outfitting yourself in a particular way because you find it silly and funny, chances are you're crossing a line.

Or this, exactly lol.

[iammalcolmx]

Nov 2, 2015 18:18:18 GMT -5 @mx said:

I don't see why this is so hard to understand!

H and I are in Yucutan right now. We were in a big city for Dia de los Muertos and a lot of white expats there join in the tradition of painting their faces for the parade of spirits. I think that's cool. They're participating in their adopted culture, not ridiculing it. In the SW (Tuscon for example) the same thing happens. It's respectful and joyful, not making a mockery of a culture you view as "cute", "weird" or "backward."

Pictures of your meals or it didn't happen.

[elleblue]

Nov 2, 2015 18:58:40 GMT -5 h said:

Nov 2, 2015 17:27:00 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I think what it boils down to is intent. Wearing a fake moustache, sombrero, and a poncho is dressing up as a stereotype that mocks Mexicans and those of Mexican descent. As opposed to doing something like wearing a cheongsam dress to a fancy Lunar New Year celebration isn't making a mockery of Chinese culture and dress. If you're outfitting yourself in a particular way because you find it silly and funny, chances are you're crossing a line.

I agree that intent matters, but I don't think it's always that clear cut. Fake moustaches and sombreros? Clearly mocking. The awful "African Aborigine" costume in that other thread? Beyond the pale. But I am not convinced that all little girls who dress up as "Indian Princesses" are doing it because they find it silly and funny or to mock American Indians. Yet most of us would still agree that it is problematic if they are white. I worry that saying intent is what matters allows people to say "but I wasn't trying to be funny! I like ____ culture," as a defense to costumes that are nonetheless still wrong.

I feel like "are you 1) a member of the culture from which the costume is derived or 2) participating in a respectful cultural celebration alongside members of that culture?" is a better test than "did you intend it to be mocking?"

That's exactly what I was getting at in my post, not that the test should only be if someone intends it to be mocking. 

And really, cultural dress at Halloween is extra tricky because by the nature of the holiday, you're donning a costume, not participating in a cultural celebration of (fill in whichever culture is applicable). I wouldn't wear a kimono on Halloween but there are other circumstances where it might be appropriate even though I'm not Japanese. It isn't always an example of cultural appropriation but of course it could be depending on circumstances. 

[sfy]

Nov 2, 2015 18:58:40 GMT -5 h said:

Nov 2, 2015 17:27:00 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I think what it boils down to is intent. Wearing a fake moustache, sombrero, and a poncho is dressing up as a stereotype that mocks Mexicans and those of Mexican descent. As opposed to doing something like wearing a cheongsam dress to a fancy Lunar New Year celebration isn't making a mockery of Chinese culture and dress. If you're outfitting yourself in a particular way because you find it silly and funny, chances are you're crossing a line.

I agree that intent matters, but I don't think it's always that clear cut. Fake moustaches and sombreros? Clearly mocking. The awful "African Aborigine" costume in that other thread? Beyond the pale. But I am not convinced that all little girls who dress up as "Indian Princesses" are doing it because they find it silly and funny or to mock American Indians. Yet most of us would still agree that it is problematic if they are white. I worry that saying intent is what matters allows people to say "but I wasn't trying to be funny! I like ____ culture," as a defense to costumes that are nonetheless still wrong.

I feel like "are you 1) a member of the culture from which the costume is derived or 2) participating in a respectful cultural celebration alongside members of that culture?" is a better test than "did you intend it to be mocking?"

I agree because people think intent is what matters, but it isn't. What is important is the impact--are people actually offended by what was done? A person can have the purest intent, but that doesn't mean his/her actions aren't hurtful.

I remember a few years ago, a situation like this came up for a white radio morning show host who I really like (and honestly think is someone who has good intentions as it relates to race and is thoughtful about his interactions with people of color). His son, who was probably 7 at the time, was assigned a project to write about a hero of his. He was also asked to dress like the person. He selected Muhammad Ali and in his 7 year old mind, he wanted to paint his face brown to make his look more authentic. I was so disappointed in the host because all he kept talking about was his son's pure intentions...and I completely agree that they were pure, but that's not the point. There were some really heated discussions about it and ultimately, he wrote a letter to Muhammad Ali, who gave his permission for the host's son to basically go in blackface. I was disappointed in him, too, but most of all in the host, who just couldn't/wouldn't understand that his son's innocence didn't make it alright for him to do something so offensive. I thought it would have been an excellent teachable moment, but instead, all he could focus on what was his son wanted--that trumped everything.

Also, honest question, mr+ms--what the IrefusetocursewhendiscussingthePope does the Pope have to do with this?? This really is like conversations about the n-word and trying to get permission to say it. "Well, can I repeat it during a rap song?" "Well, what if I'm just saying it to explain that it's not okay to say it?" People area saying that it's offensive to Mexicans to put on sombreros and ponchos and mustaches and make that your kooky Halloween costume. Is that really so confusing that you need to ask whether a baby dressed like the Pope is also offensive?? Just THINK. Nothing being said is confusing unless you insist on being confused.

[mx27]

Nov 2, 2015 19:18:21 GMT -5 sfy said:

Nov 2, 2015 18:58:40 GMT -5 h said:

I agree that intent matters, but I don't think it's always that clear cut. Fake moustaches and sombreros? Clearly mocking. The awful "African Aborigine" costume in that other thread? Beyond the pale. But I am not convinced that all little girls who dress up as "Indian Princesses" are doing it because they find it silly and funny or to mock American Indians. Yet most of us would still agree that it is problematic if they are white. I worry that saying intent is what matters allows people to say "but I wasn't trying to be funny! I like ____ culture," as a defense to costumes that are nonetheless still wrong.

I feel like "are you 1) a member of the culture from which the costume is derived or 2) participating in a respectful cultural celebration alongside members of that culture?" is a better test than "did you intend it to be mocking?"

Also, honest question, mr+ms--what the IrefusetocursewhendiscussingthePope does the Pope have to do with this?? This really is like conversations about the n-word and trying to get permission to say it. "Well, can I repeat it during a rap song?" "Well, what if I'm just saying it to explain that it's not okay to say it?" People area saying that it's offensive to Mexicans to put on sombreros and ponchos and mustaches and make that your kooky Halloween costume. Is that really so confusing that you need to ask whether a baby dressed like the Pope is also offensive?? Just THINK. Nothing being said is confusing unless you insist on being confused.

THANK YOU!!!

same thing with the, "I'm Scottish.  Can non-Scottish people wear kilts?"

STOP!

ya'll aren't that dense.

[Michelle]

Just popped into my FB newsfeed:

Photo of HS friend (white chick) dressed as a Geisha, white face paint included, but also cracks on her face like she came back from the dead (Unless this is some character with which I'm unfamiliar). She is standing next to her Asian boyfriend who is wearing an afro, tunic and peace sign necklace like an African American hippie from the 60s. It was such a layering of cultural appropriation. I just needed an African American to be in peachy white face paint and a pantsuit dressed as Hillary Clinton and it would have all come full circle.

[pixy0stix]

Nov 2, 2015 22:21:38 GMT -5 mr+ms said:

Nov 2, 2015 19:18:21 GMT -5 sfy said:

Also, honest question, mr+ms--what the IrefusetocursewhendiscussingthePope does the Pope have to do with this?? This really is like conversations about the n-word and trying to get permission to say it. "Well, can I repeat it during a rap song?" "Well, what if I'm just saying it to explain that it's not okay to say it?" People area saying that it's offensive to Mexicans to put on sombreros and ponchos and mustaches and make that your kooky Halloween costume. Is that really so confusing that you need to ask whether a baby dressed like the Pope is also offensive?? Just THINK. Nothing being said is confusing unless you insist on being confused.

I don't see how the n-word relates to this. There isn't anything redeeming about that word, is there? I'm just thinking there's some grey area surrounding this issue.

 

Dumbass. He was presented with that hat. I remember the story surrounding it. There is no gray area.

[pixy0stix]

Damn. I find your post VERY offensive.

[pixy0stix]

AND obviously you can't determine when someone is wearing a costume, or when they are actually celebrating a culture while wearing things that are gifted to them.

You are so tone deaf to the situation that it's scary. No wonder we keep getting people wandering around in black face thinking everything is ok.

[meshaliuknits]

Nov 1, 2015 11:40:00 GMT -5 scribellesam said:

I was so disappointed in friends of mine yesterday. They decorated their 2yo's toy shopping cart like one of the push ice cream carts you see in the lower income neighborhoods around here (like mine and the one they live in). Cute idea! But then they added a sombrero and painted dark eyebrows and a moustache on the kid. Gross.

The push ice cream carts are associated with low income areas? I didn't know this. My association is an increased chance of getting coconut ice cream.

[heyjude]

I actually think this is really easy to get and people are willfully or ignorantly making this needlessly hard.

[scribellesam]

Nov 2, 2015 23:22:16 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Nov 1, 2015 11:40:00 GMT -5 scribellesam said:

I was so disappointed in friends of mine yesterday. They decorated their 2yo's toy shopping cart like one of the push ice cream carts you see in the lower income neighborhoods around here (like mine and the one they live in). Cute idea! But then they added a sombrero and painted dark eyebrows and a moustache on the kid. Gross.

The push ice cream carts are associated with low income areas? I didn't know this. My association is an increased chance of getting coconut ice cream.

Maybe not? I'd never seen them before we moved to our current neighborhood, which is significantly more diverse and lower-income than previous places I've lived. I think it's the case for my city, anyway, which is where the friends in question live.

[heyjude]

Nov 3, 2015 7:42:36 GMT -5 mr+ms said:

Nov 2, 2015 22:33:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

AND obviously you can't determine when someone is wearing a costume, or when they are actually celebrating a culture while wearing things that are gifted to them.

You are so tone deaf to the situation that it's scary. No wonder we keep getting people wandering around in black face thinking everything is ok.

You're getting very flustered. I am NOT talking about blackface and things like that so I don't know why that keeps coming up as an example. I don't think a Halloween costume or dressing up in general is always making fun of something either; plenty of times it is other things: fun/celebratory, interesting, educational, etc. And the pope was photo was TIC.   

So is it okay in your mind to dress like a Mexican on Halloween? I'm having trouble understanding your angle in this thread?

[pittpurple]

Nov 2, 2015 9:29:51 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nov 2, 2015 9:24:51 GMT -5 mr+ms said:

I have to say I had no idea it's offensive to use another culture's traditional dress as a costume. Really? I've never had an inclination to do so, but it would never dawn on me to judge anyone doing that.

What if you are like 5% Irish? Then it's ok to do the kilt thing? But 0% then no? This doesn't really make sense to me. I'm mostly thinking traditional dress is festive/special occasion in some way. If it's not and represents something other than that then I see the problem of course.

I think the other thing you have to think about is are you from a dominate culture wearing the traditional dress of a beligured and impoverished minority that has been and continues to be harassed and persecuted by your culture? Yes? Don't wear the costume. No? Meh. White people wearing Irish things doesn't really raise my hackles the way white people wearing Mexican things does.

I haven't read all the way to the end now so apologise if this is already said, but here in the UK, it's actually exactly that example - the British did (and do) rule over the Irish which created generations of poverty and other issues. Ireland is still struggling and is still two different countries because this issue is still relevent. So actually I think an English person dressing as an Irish person for Halloween would be very culturally insensitive.

[heyjude]

Nov 3, 2015 11:50:24 GMT -5 pittpurple said:

Nov 2, 2015 9:29:51 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I think the other thing you have to think about is are you from a dominate culture wearing the traditional dress of a beligured and impoverished minority that has been and continues to be harassed and persecuted by your culture? Yes? Don't wear the costume. No? Meh. White people wearing Irish things doesn't really raise my hackles the way white people wearing Mexican things does.

I haven't read all the way to the end now so apologise if this is already said, but here in the UK, it's actually exactly that example - the British did (and do) rule over the Irish which created generations of poverty and other issues. Ireland is still struggling and is still two different countries because this issue is still relevent. So actually I think an English person dressing as an Irish person for Halloween would be very culturally insensitive.

Okay fair enough. But I'm talking about America. As are most people here.

[sfy]

Nov 2, 2015 22:21:38 GMT -5 mr+ms said:

Nov 2, 2015 19:18:21 GMT -5 sfy said:

Also, honest question, mr+ms--what the IrefusetocursewhendiscussingthePope does the Pope have to do with this?? This really is like conversations about the n-word and trying to get permission to say it. "Well, can I repeat it during a rap song?" "Well, what if I'm just saying it to explain that it's not okay to say it?" People area saying that it's offensive to Mexicans to put on sombreros and ponchos and mustaches and make that your kooky Halloween costume. Is that really so confusing that you need to ask whether a baby dressed like the Pope is also offensive?? Just THINK. Nothing being said is confusing unless you insist on being confused.

I don't see how the n-word relates to this. There isn't anything redeeming about that word, is there? I'm just thinking there's some grey area surrounding this issue.

 

It's an analogy, one that relates to the idea that people do exactly what you're doing in this thread--ask a bunch of asinine questions that seem to be seeking permission to do/asking where one draws the line about things which are not acceptable.

[heyjude]

Pssst: dressing like a Mexican is offensive on Cinco de Mayo too.

[shauni27]

Nov 3, 2015 11:54:43 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nov 3, 2015 11:50:24 GMT -5 pittpurple said:

I haven't read all the way to the end now so apologise if this is already said, but here in the UK, it's actually exactly that example - the British did (and do) rule over the Irish which created generations of poverty and other issues. Ireland is still struggling and is still two different countries because this issue is still relevent. So actually I think an English person dressing as an Irish person for Halloween would be very culturally insensitive.

Okay fair enough. But I'm talking about America. As are most people here.

ETA: I am just so sick of people being so obtuse that I am just skipping ahead to the gif portion of the thread now.

[heyjude]

Nov 3, 2015 14:21:18 GMT -5 mr+ms said:

So then "fiesta" themed whatever sounds like it would offend as well.

You are too smart to be this obtuse.

[heyjude]

And yes throwing a party with tacos is EXACTLY like donning a poncho, sombrero, and mustache and mimicking the people of a culture. Exactly.

Is this real life?

CEPers are better than this.

[meshaliuknits]

Fiesta themed party is making me chuckle. Party themed party.