A lady posts a pic of her son dressed like a Mexican. Poncho and sombrero. I guess a man told her kid he was racist. She posts the pic and the story. Whole bunch of people say 'oh that's terrible. Great costume' 'How is that racist?' Blah blah Someone says 'That man could have said something to you or a gentler thing to teach your son, but yes, racist' she got killed. I posted an article explaining the why of it being offensive.
The comments are so ridiculous. 'How is it racist? It isn't negative. It can only be racist if it's negative' 'Its a great costume. Not everything is about racism people' 'That man is ignorant' My head is exploding. The first post was taken down because people got nasty. You think? But now she reposted today and it's all started again. I have to step away.
Post by scribellesam on Nov 1, 2015 11:40:00 GMT -5
I was so disappointed in friends of mine yesterday. They decorated their 2yo's toy shopping cart like one of the push ice cream carts you see in the lower income neighborhoods around here (like mine and the one they live in). Cute idea! But then they added a sombrero and painted dark eyebrows and a moustache on the kid. Gross.
I was so disappointed in friends of mine yesterday. They decorated their 2yo's toy shopping cart like one of the push ice cream carts you see in the lower income neighborhoods around here (like mine and the one they live in). Cute idea! But then they added a sombrero and painted dark eyebrows and a moustache on the kid. Gross.
WTF. How on earth is that not racist? Did they post pics? Did anyone call them out?
I was so disappointed in friends of mine yesterday. They decorated their 2yo's toy shopping cart like one of the push ice cream carts you see in the lower income neighborhoods around here (like mine and the one they live in). Cute idea! But then they added a sombrero and painted dark eyebrows and a moustache on the kid. Gross.
WTF. Â How on earth is that not racist? Did they post pics? Did anyone call them out?
They did post photos on FB, that's how I saw it. No comments other than "Wow, that's hilarious!" type BS last night. I meant to go look again today. I don't really do FB callouts but I may gently mention something to them next time I see them. I was pretty appalled.
Post by WanderingWinoZ on Nov 1, 2015 14:03:42 GMT -5
what about dressing a young kid (<5) like pablo escobar? I dont think racist...probably just in poor taste? I guess I personally don't care & probably find it cue, but I can see how having your kid be a drug dealer wouldn't be cool (or at least set a good exemple if they are old enough to ask "who am I?")
Post by downtoearth on Nov 1, 2015 14:06:24 GMT -5
I had this dress as a culture discussion yesterday. It seemed so clear cut, but then someone I know, who is of Irish descent, dressed Irish with a kilt and hat and such. It seemed acceptable. Also a little kid dressed as Sacajewea on the golden dollar and she has NA heritage.
Oh and I had a friend post a couples costume where the husband was in a beautiful blue dress with a "Call me Caitlyn" banner and the wife was in a running suit with a Bruce Jenner Gold medal. Hmmmm? That one I might mention something when I see her next week.
I had this dress as a culture discussion yesterday. It seemed so clear cut, but then someone I know, who is of Irish descent, dressed Irish with a kilt and hat and such. It seemed acceptable. Also a little kid dressed as Sacajewea on the golden dollar and she has NA heritage.
Whut? There's nothing wrong with dressing as your own culture.
I had this dress as a culture discussion yesterday. It seemed so clear cut, but then someone I know, who is of Irish descent, dressed Irish with a kilt and hat and such. It seemed acceptable. Also a little kid dressed as Sacajewea on the golden dollar and she has NA heritage.
Whut? There's nothing wrong with dressing as your own culture.
Yeah, I was saying it as such - but the Irish guy was bordrerline leprechaun, which had me look twice - orange wig.
The other one - I know she's NA, but I doubt anyone else could tell from looks - she's blonde and green-eyes. But I like that she was a specific NA historical person too.
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A few people commented so politely that it would be a good moment to teach her son and it was in poor judgement to choose the costume. Now we are all mean and judgey and shouldn't tell her how to parent.
i don't think dressing up like a specific person or character is racist. it's dressing up like the culture in general, when you are not a native of said culture, that is.
I don't know if this is 100% true. We saw a white dude over the weekend dressed as the character on the Tapatio bottle. If the person you are trying to become is itself a stereotype I think the rule above can have holes.
I have to say I had no idea it's offensive to use another culture's traditional dress as a costume. Really? I've never had an inclination to do so, but it would never dawn on me to judge anyone doing that.
What if you are like 5% Irish? Then it's ok to do the kilt thing? But 0% then no? This doesn't really make sense to me. I'm mostly thinking traditional dress is festive/special occasion in some way. If it's not and represents something other than that then I see the problem of course.
I think the other thing you have to think about is are you from a dominate culture wearing the traditional dress of a beligured and impoverished minority that has been and continues to be harassed and persecuted by your culture? Yes? Don't wear the costume. No? Meh. White people wearing Irish things doesn't really raise my hackles the way white people wearing Mexican things does.
I have to say I had no idea it's offensive to use another culture's traditional dress as a costume. Really? I've never had an inclination to do so, but it would never dawn on me to judge anyone doing that.
What if you are like 5% Irish? Then it's ok to do the kilt thing? But 0% then no? This doesn't really make sense to me. I'm mostly thinking traditional dress is festive/special occasion in some way. If it's not and represents something other than that then I see the problem of course.
But really, what it boils down to is that if it's not your culture, don't dress up in it. Don't turn it into a costume. If you really, deep in your heart, admire that culture then you wouldn't be using that culture as a costume.
I really don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
Post by theoriginalbean on Nov 2, 2015 10:00:07 GMT -5
My (no longer) local parenting board got into it over the Kanye teacher. I was really, really surprised at how many of them thought it was ok to go in blackface. It blew up, but not in the direction you'd expect. It was a really enlightening experience.
ETA: "enlightening" because I didn't realize the level of ignorance I was dealing with, there.
But really, what it boils down to is that if it's not your culture, don't dress up in it. Don't turn it into a costume. If you really, deep in your heart, admire that culture then you would be using that culture as a costume.
I really don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
It's not without controversy according to the wiki entry and I'm kind of thinking things brought up in the criticism of the concept there.
"Generally, an assumption that the culture being borrowed from is also being oppressed by the culture doing the borrowing is prerequisite to the concept"
That makes sense. However, I think we have to be careful not to go overboard. This is going off on a bit of a tangent, but I think we can end up being too insular and miss out on learning opportunities. What about genuinely coming together while merging various artifacts from different cultures? families and friends do this naturally but I don't think there's anything wrong with interested people immersing themselves in different ways.
But you're talking about something wholly different. Merging cultures happens in an organic way.
Using a culture as a costume is deliberately taking the stereotypes and blowing them up to cartoonish proportions. Little white girls dressed as NA men, wearing a big sombrero with a mustache and a serape, grown adult men cross dressing as geishas just for the titillation factor (which in and of itself is problematic on many levels including gender bending for "fun").
It's not without controversy according to the wiki entry and I'm kind of thinking things brought up in the criticism of the concept there.
"Generally, an assumption that the culture being borrowed from is also being oppressed by the culture doing the borrowing is prerequisite to the concept"
That makes sense. However, I think we have to be careful not to go overboard. This is going off on a bit of a tangent, but I think we can end up being too insular and miss out on learning opportunities. What about genuinely coming together while merging various artifacts from different cultures? families and friends do this naturally but I don't think there's anything wrong with interested people immersing themselves in different ways.
I don't think there is anything wrong with wearing say a huipil with a pair of jeans because you think huipils are cool and you bought a few in Mexico. It's not ok to wear a huipil and say you're dressed up as a Mexican.
I have a few wax cloth pencil skirts that I had tailored in Nigeria. I wear them to work with heels and a blouse. I'm not dressing up as an African. I like the prints and appreciate what young designers in West Africa are doing with them. But I'm not wearing them as a costume. I'm wearing them as a skirt.
In addition wearing something that has ceremonial or religious significance in another culture because you think it "looks cool" is appropriative. So you need to know enough about what it is you're wearing to know it's not that.
Finally I think it's important that if you're going to wear things from other cultures out of genuine appreciation for their beauty that you make an effort to purchase them from designers from those communities rather than buying a shirt with a traditional Navajo pattern on it from Forever 21 for $6.
Crap, I absolutely love the black and white print sweaters out now and just bought one... for $20 from a mass production store. Now I feel bad - I hadn't even really thought it was a Navajo pattern, just really liked it, but when I read you last paragraph realized, "Oh, I have one of those."
Post by bernsteincat on Nov 2, 2015 11:21:16 GMT -5
I'm a little late, and briefly skimmed the post, but I would like to add (if it hasn't already been said) that the PRESIDENT of the University of Louisville and his entire staff dressed up as "Mexicans" for Halloween in entirely stereotypical garb. The fucking President of the University. Pic at link.
So was the kid in popemobile totes cool? Can we have fun without making fun of something? Just thinking out loud. I dunno, maybe we can't.
The forever 21 Navajo print is probably the fashion equivalent of Taco Bell as Mexican food. Is Taco Bell offensive? What went on when their slogan was Make a run for the border? It feels like we're more relaxed about food.
My question to you is, why do you have to quantify this at all? It's just about as offensive as saying, "Well AA people say the n-word in their music, so why can't I say it?"
What about when the culture itself uses theirtraditional garb as a costume?
In Japan people wear kimono for festivals. They're not the real ceremonial kind. They actually are costumes. People of all ages wear them. I'm sure if I had they would have loved it. I was often the only noon Japanese at a rural festival.
Regarding the Pope/mobile kid - the Pope himself was really pleased when a baby Pope was presented to him. So I think that pretty much answers the question.
I find myself suddenly wondering if one of my friends is of Hispanic heritage. We're not close - she's more of a friend of a friend so I don't know much about her family. She teaches Spanish at a high school, and dressed up with a really beautiful dia de los muertes look. (my spellcheck can't help me with Spanish. hopefully that's close). Not at school I don't think - on Saturday.
ummm... I can't tell if you're serious or not sushi. If you're of the culture, then you can do whatever the fuck you want.
Yeah, I wasn't descriptive enough.
If I'm living in Japan again, is it ok to dress in kimono given that others dress like that for costume purposes? Is it appropriation if you're living in such a location and you happen to be the only white person?
Is it ok to be a white American wearing a drindl even if I'm not of German heritage?
These are hypothetical questions. I'm not actually dressing that way (and I actually am of German heritage). But when I lived in Japan I did want to fit in and wear kimono for festivals. I'm pretty sure they would strongly appreciate me wearing their local clothing. I just think there's another part of the conversation and that's what is locally appropriate. Sometimes cultural appropriation is offensive, and sometimes it's a sign of respect.
ummm... I can't tell if you're serious or not sushi. If you're of the culture, then you can do whatever the fuck you want.
Yeah, I wasn't descriptive enough.
If I'm living in Japan again, is it ok to dress in kimono given that others dress like that for costume purposes? Is it appropriation if you're living in such a location and you happen to be the only white person?
Is it ok to be a white American wearing a drindl even if I'm not of German heritage?
These are hypothetical questions. I'm not actually dressing that way (and I actually am of German heritage). But when I lived in Japan I did want to fit in and wear kimono for festivals. I'm pretty sure they would strongly appreciate me wearing their local clothing. I just think there's another part of the conversation and that's what is locally appropriate. Sometimes cultural appropriation is offensive, and sometimes it's a sign of respect.
I don't have an answer to your question, but I think there's a difference b/w the way white culture has been treated in this country versus how the cultures of other races/ethnicities have been treated in this country. It's that distinction that I believe makes this issue unique and sensitive for people of color.
White people disregarded, made fun of, disrespected, obliterated, etc. the cultures of non-white people. That didn't happen in the reverse.
Just out of curiousity. I am Scottish and my DH is Scottish. We are very into our cultural heritage. DH and his male relatives wear a kilts for all formal family celebrations, such as funerals and weddings. We are a part of local cultural celebrations.
There was a period if history in Scotland where the British tried to eliminate the Scottish culture, banning any reference to the clans and tartans. It was a very bloody time in Scottish history and there was (and is in some cases) white on white racism relating to Scots in the British Isles.
Would it be inappropriate for a non-Scot to wear kilts? What about if doing so at things like Ren faires and stuff like that?
This doesn't offend me, even being Scottish myself. Is it wrong anyways, even if it isn't offensive to the majority of people from the culture the "costume" came from? I can't see any of my fellow Scots getting upset if a non-Scot showed up in a kilt at the local Kirkin O' the Tartan or something like that. They would probably think it's cool.