Let’s call everyone “they”: Gender-neutral language should b

[ttt]

I'm a she, sorry.

Also you don't get to decide how language works. Language evolves on its own naturally through usage. English speakers are not giving up "he" and "she" anytime soon.

[onomatopoeia]

I also prefer SHE and HER. I like THEY for when it's a his/her situation (when you don 't know the identity), and if individuals want to be known as THEY, have at it (although it will take some getting used to).

When it comes to gender, on the other hand, the language has traditionally presented no elegant alternative. We are forced to clumsily dance around the matter, or to give in and refer to our coworkers, students and friends as “he” or “she.” The result is that our language caps our ability to be progressive in this realm, forces us to immediately characterize people as male or female, associates other aspects of their personalities with their sex and, in doing so, makes it an inseparable part of how we perceive ourselves and each other, far more so than any other random biological feature or accident of birth. It is so hard to distinguish words from their potentially sexist intentions or applications because sexism necessarily pervades our language. It is literally impossible to say what, exactly, it is that many of us are “trying to say.”

I guess I just don't see referring to people as he or she as "clumsy" or un-progressive. I agree that words can have potential sexist implications, but I'd rather work to get rid of those implications than change the words, if that makes sense.

Interesting point in the article about white being the default race in news articles. 

[emilyj]

It should be up to each individual person what pronouns they want to have ascribed to them. Period. I don't need or want someone else ascribing pronouns to me. I'm a HER and SHE, thank you very much.

[heyjude]

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:27 GMT -5 @licia said:

How will I look down on people who say, "to each their own" if this catches on?

But really, I'm totally fine with calling a person by whatever identifiers are preferred. I don't think I would immediately default to "they," though, and I'm sure this is a much more complex issue than I can even comprehend.

Also, I'm imagining how my old dad would react upon the request for the Mx. title. *cringe*

haha, I was just going to say something like this. I use "they" a lot in conversation or just typing on here because I somehow got into the habit but in the back of my mind it's always felt kind of sloppy. Guess I'm just on the vanguard of a new trend

If people say they prefer to be referred to as "they" I don't mind doing it. 

[Deleted]

I just can't get over "they" being grammatically incorrect for one person. It's a plural pronoun.

[shell403b]

I like the use of Mx. Using "they" as a singular construct--that would take some getting used to.

[pinkyp]

Dec 7, 2015 10:38:16 GMT -5 @bellakitty said:

I just can't get over "they" being grammatically incorrect for one person. It's a plural pronoun.

Thank you! This was stressed so much in high school English classes when we were really learning to write correctly. It makes me cringe.

[heyjude]

Dec 7, 2015 10:51:30 GMT -5 1234FIF! said:

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

Except that's what the woman who wrote this piece is asking for -- call everyone THEY. 

"They" in this sentence referred to my cousin. But this also illustrates the problems with using "they."

ETA: the first "they."

[erbear]

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

Agree with this. I'm very much a to each his/her/their own person, and I'll call you whatever you ask me to. But it can be really hard. I have a transgender 8th grader this year who I taught as a female last year. I STILL slip up and call him "her" sometimes. It makes me feel like I'm adding to his challenges but it is hard.

I'd prefer to stay "she" and "her". My choice.

[downtoearth]

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

I am going to have to read up on this b/c I do have some confusion on how you can't identify as either.  Is this hormonal or lack of hormones or is this a medical genetics thing or a combo of both? Just curious.

[blink]

I love Mx.

My best friend dances around agender (asexual but hasn't fully figured out gender). Language issues are a huge problem. From what I know singular-they seems a bit more widely accepted than trying to introduce a completely new pronoun into language. However, like many (most) things the media grabs, they are going to grab the more sensational story. So advocating that everyone - regardless of gender - should be 'they' is more interesting than - some people that identify as agender/gender-neutral/nonbinary would prefer to be referred to as they (singular).

[Michelle]

Well it would certainly make our project at work simpler. Try configuring your registration, procedure, etc. system to accept either 1) a new value for gender that is different from sex, 2) a new value for sex, like MTF or FTM or just T for transgender and not have billing codes kicked back because standard pre-screening mammograms are only automatically covered for women, not men. And men cannot get a pap smear. And women can't get a prostate checkup.

But then you want to be respectful of the individual in the bed and use the pronouns of his/her preference.

[sfy]

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

I think I'm a pretty liberal and accepting person, but my face while reading this...unfortunately makes me feel like Archie Bunker or something.  I would struggle with understanding/reacting to this.  I would mostly want to ask zir, WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

I will call anyone whatever he/she (zie!) wants to be called, but I certainly wish to continue to be referred to as she/her. Indifferent to Mx, but it's not odd to me that the Times explains its use of the term--otherwise, they probably would have been bombarded with correspondence on why, whether it was a new protocol and/or peoples' opinions about about gender neutral honorifics.  I wouldn't assume there was malicious intent/judgment regarding Mx. Hardwick's preference there.

[froggy76]

I have so many thoughts on this and I don't know how to articulate them. I feel like society is (very slowly) moving away from traditional gender roles, and we may reach a point where the differences between men and women have more to do with biology than societal constructs. I do understand the difference between gender and sex, but I can't say I really understand what it must be like to be transgender. Or to not identify with either gender. Won't the concept of gender be obsolete at some point? What will it really mean to identify as a woman vs. a man?

[shauni27]

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

My sister and her group of friends mostly identify as pretty queer.  A few years ago at one of her dinner parties everyone had to go around and share their identities so we could use the correct pronouns throughout the evening.  There were two friends who are nonbinary transgender and it took me SO LONG to get used to saying they/it when referring to one individual--it is so deeply ingrained in me that that is poor grammar.

I would suggest reading Stone Butch Blues--it is the "bible" of my sister's friend group.  It is not necessarily about a non-gender identifying person, but it is so eye opening.  It was an incredible book and was a great way to help me understand the life my sister and her community are living.  There is so much more than just gay/straight/bi.

ETA: I can understand how hard this is for your whole family to understand this--it is so different for most of us.  I have only met friends of my sisters who identify this way and it was years ago and I STILL cannot stop thinking about it and trying to get it to make sense in my head.  Good for you and your family for being open to learning more.

[emilyj]

Dec 7, 2015 12:05:23 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

I am going to have to read up on this b/c I do have some confusion on how you can't identify as either.  Is this hormonal or lack of hormones or is this a medical genetics thing or a combo of both? Just curious.

It's a hard concept to grasp for me as well.  I recently heard the term 'gender mobile' and that one threw me for a loop.

I did safe zone training last year at my school, and while they did a great job covering transgender, transexual, etc., non-conforming and gender mobile were never mentioned. 

[jerseyjaybird]

Dec 7, 2015 10:38:16 GMT -5 @bellakitty said:

I just can't get over "they" being grammatically incorrect for one person. It's a plural pronoun.

You might enjoy this:


www.wsj.com/articles/can-they-be-accepted-as-a-singular-pronoun-1428686651

I'm an editor, and I cringe every single time I hear "they" as a singular pronoun . . . and I hear it pretty frequently. Our synagogue is home to a number of genderqueer/gender-nonconforming/agender folks, and it's fairly common for us to introduce ourselves with our names and our pronouns.

ETA: And FWIW, no one in my circles would advocate choosing anyone else's pronouns for, um,  them, including mandating that the singular "they" be used in most or all cases. The message I hear repeatedly is respecting everyone's/anyone's preferred pronouns.

[heyjude]

I'm going to be completely honest and say I don't entirely get it. And I would have been skeptical just two months ago. But I think of it this way: what if I spent my entire life with everyone around me telling me that there was no such thing as gender. That I am "genderless." But I so clearly feel female. Is that what it feels like to be gender nonconforming? You spend your whole life with everyone telling you that you are a female but you don't feel female. You actually don't feel any gender? That would be maddening, in either scenario. So while I don't get it (is it chemical? Biological? psychophisiological?) I can understand the feeling if I put myself in her shoes by pretending a world where everyone insisted I had no gender. Does that make sense? I do think this is something we will understand more as our children and grandchildren take over the political and sexual discourse and our generation and older generations cease to have a voice. At one point being gay was not understood either. Now we have federally recognized right to marry, regardless of sexual orientation. And today we are barely, just barely, beginning to understand transgender issues. Maybe non gender is the next frontier? My cousin's life is now going to be fraught with issues that I can't comprehend (do they take a partner? do they have kids? what does this mean as she ages? gets a job? gets a driver's license?) but maybe this will all become clearer as humans evolve.

I actually believe strongly in gender normative identity. I think a child can strongly feel one gender or another. For example, my daughter strongly identifies with being a a girl and all the girl trappings that go along with that. Which is why I get really uncomfortable with messages that tell girls they should be less so. But by that same token, it is possible for someone who is not female to strongly identify as female, or male if they are not male. And then naturally wouldn't it be conceivable for someone to strongly identify as neither male or female? Right? If you think about it this way, aren't we all really the same? We all strongly identify with something? It's just some of us identify with what we were biologically born with and some identify with what we were not biologically born with? And some of us strongly identify with neither? Anyway, this is just my meandering thought process on the whole thing.

Back to the OP, using the word "they" clearly has awkward implications, as evidenced by my post above. Using Zie and other new terminology is also very strange when you grew up in a world that uses he and she. But as someone who does a lot of technical writing, there are times when you can construct a sentence without referring to any gender and there are times when "they" is not so inartful except for the fact that it is considered grammatically incorrect (because? some dead old white dude said so...?). I personally hate writing "he or she" in sentences when referring to a person (and I particularly hate coming across "he" to refer to a person of any gender). I wish we had something gender neutral to use.

[heyjude]

Dec 7, 2015 12:51:54 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

Dec 7, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

My cousin just announced that they are nonbinary transgender which means they do not identify with a specific gender. I understand being gay. I understand being transgender. But this is a new realm I'm struggling with understanding. The whole family is. But everyone so far seems to be accepting of this change and respectful of her (see, it's very hard) wishes and new identity, that also comes with a name change. They have asked for the pronouns zie/zir/zis. This is not natural to me. But I'm guessing that feeling "unnatural" is how they felt for an entire life and we owe to zir to be respectful and at least try to understand. And they are not at all asking for genderconforming people to change how they identify. If you are female and identify as female I don't think anyone is saying you should be otherwise. My cousin's mom has been sharing reading material so we all can get a better grasp of this new realm of gender identity. It's an adjustment for sure.

My sister and her group of friends mostly identify as pretty queer.  A few years ago at one of her dinner parties everyone had to go around and share their identities so we could use the correct pronouns throughout the evening.  There were two friends who are nonbinary transgender and it took me SO LONG to get used to saying they/it when referring to one individual--it is so deeply ingrained in me that that is poor grammar.

I would suggest reading Stone Butch Blues--it is the "bible" of my sister's friend group.  It is not necessarily about a non-gender identifying person, but it is so eye opening.  It was an incredible book and was a great way to help me understand the life my sister and her community are living.  There is so much more than just gay/straight/bi.

ETA: I can understand how hard this is for your whole family to understand this--it is so different for most of us.  I have only met friends of my sisters who identify this way and it was years ago and I STILL cannot stop thinking about it and trying to get it to make sense in my head.  Good for you and your family for being open to learning more.

Thank you! I've been looking for more reading material. And almost asked the board for suggestions. I knew someone here would have reading material ideas! 

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2015 11:00:25 GMT -5 pinkyp said:

Dec 7, 2015 10:38:16 GMT -5 @bellakitty said:

I just can't get over "they" being grammatically incorrect for one person. It's a plural pronoun.

Thank you! This was stressed so much in high school English classes when we were really learning to write correctly. It makes me cringe.

Former high school English teacher, signing in.

jerseyjaybird, if someone I knew wanted to be referred to as "they" I would certainly do it for...them...but it would likely always be a little nails-on-chalkboard for me.

[shauni27]

Dec 7, 2015 13:18:48 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I'm going to be completely honest and say I don't entirely get it. And I would have been skeptical just two months ago. But I think of it this way: what if I spent my entire life with everyone around me telling me that there was no such thing as gender. That I am "genderless." But I so clearly feel female. Is that what it feels like to be gender nonconforming? You spend your whole life with everyone telling you that you are a female but you don't feel female. You actually don't feel any gender? That would be maddening, in either scenario. So while I don't get it (is it chemical? Biological? psychophisiological?) I can understand the feeling if I put myself in her shoes by pretending a world where everyone insisted I had no gender. Does that make sense? I do think this is something we will understand more as our children and grandchildren take over the political and sexual discourse and our generation and older generations cease to have a voice. At one point being gay was not understood either. Now we have federally recognized right to marry, regardless of sexual orientation. And today we are barely, just barely, beginning to understand transgender issues. Maybe non gender is the next frontier? My cousin's life is now going to be fraught with issues that I can't comprehend (do they take a partner? do they have kids? what does this mean as she ages? gets a job? gets a driver's license?) but maybe this will all become clearer as humans evolve.

I actually believe strongly in gender normative identity. I think a child can strongly feel one gender or another. For example, my daughter strongly identifies with being a a girl and all the girl trappings that go along with that. Which is why I get really uncomfortable with messages that tell girls they should be less so. But by that same token, it is possible for someone who is not female to strongly identify as female, or male if they are not male. And then naturally wouldn't it be conceivable for someone to strongly identify as neither male or female? Right? If you think about it this way, aren't we all really the same? We all strongly identify with something? It's just some of us identify with what we were biologically born with and some identify with what we were not biologically born with? And some of us strongly identify with neither? Anyway, this is just my meandering thought process on the whole thing.

Back to the OP, using the word "they" clearly has awkward implications, as evidenced by my post above. Using Zie and other new terminology is also very strange when you grew up in a world that uses he and she. But as someone who does a lot of technical writing, there are times when you can construct a sentence without referring to any gender and there are times when "they" is not so inartful except for the fact that it is considered grammatically incorrect (because? some dead old white dude said so...?). I personally hate writing "he or she" in sentences when referring to a person (and I particularly hate coming across "he" to refer to a person of any gender). I wish we had something gender neutral to use.

I just wanted to answer some of your questions anecdotally from what I have experienced with my sister and her community of friends.

The two individuals that I met who did not conform both had partners that identified as female.  I would imagine they would have no problem raising children or even getting pregnant, but that would be personal for each individual.  I know in NYC and PHI there are some great LGBTQ clinics that non-conforming individuals generally go to, but I am not sure if your cousin is in a city or not.  I also work in medicine and in some of our workshops we have discussed changing medical forms going forward to say "how do you identify" rather than just "male or female."

Additionally, my sister and her friends most identify as femme, regardless of their identity.  They have "femme parties" [and others in their community have butch parties] where they celebrate all things feminine--they dress up in the most femme way possible, do makeup, wear bikinis, do whatever it is that feels feminine, regardless of whether the individual identifies as he, she, trans or other.

It really has opened my eyes, every time I go visit my sister and her friends I learn SO MUCH and it is so interesting!

[sushi]

I have gender queer family. I'm opposed to they just because it's plural, but I do wish we had a gender neutral pronoun. I try to use gender neutral language whenever possible, like saying partner/spouse.

I think I'll start using mx.

[DesertMoon]

I think that's kinda dumb. "They" really is it necessary? Pretty lame

[sushi]

Dec 7, 2015 14:11:21 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think that's kinda dumb. "They" really is it necessary? Pretty lame

Would you feel this way if someone decided to call you he?

[heyjude]

Dec 7, 2015 14:11:21 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think that's kinda dumb. "They" really is it necessary? Pretty lame

And this comment is why we all still have a long way to go. 

[ESF]

I have a question, and I really hope it doesn't come across as insensitive or ignorant. I'm really trying to understand. What's the state of medical/psychological research on non binary gender? Is there a lot of research on it?

I'm way oversimplifying here but basically, if someone went to a psychiatrist and said, "I don't identify with either gender," what's the prevailing recommended course of counseling? Is it, "OK, let's take steps so that you can live comfortably and openly as a person without a binary gender" or is it, "let's work on this so you can pick one of the two choices?" Is there even a prevailing recommended course of counseling or is the research still in flux?

How a person chooses to live their life is their own business; I don't judge, and I certainly don't think these kinds of feelings are made up or the result of a sickness. I'm certainly open to the idea that the *best* course of action should be to encourage people to live openly as a non binary gendered person. But I'm not an expert, and I have nothing scientific backing my opinion to say "good for them for living life as they choose," rather, my view of it all is based really just on not being an asshole and a little bit of extrapolating what little I know about related issues.

So I'm just wondering if there's scientific evidence that supports this as a course of action for these individuals, if scientific evidence suggests something else but we are eschewing it in the name of tolerance, or if there's not enough scientific evidence one way or another. I understand that for years, the medical community treated homosexuality as a disease, so I'm not suggesting that the medical community is always right on this, or must be given absolute deference. I guess I'm just wondering if these people are getting the benefit of the best research to help them navigate what I imagine must be a very difficult life.

[wambam]

Dec 7, 2015 14:11:21 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think that's kinda dumb. "They" really is it necessary? Pretty lame

Eesh.

Look, I am against a gender-neutral terms, automatically for everyone. Mostly because I prefer being called a she/her. But to call gender neutral pronouns "kinda dumb" is disrespectful to anyone who prefers to be addressed as such.

[downtoearth]

This is interesting. And I'd just like to add that "zie/ze," "zis," and "zur," also me b/c they are or so close to German words.

[foundmylazybum]

Dec 7, 2015 14:11:21 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think that's kinda dumb. "They" really is it necessary? Pretty lame

What do you find dumb about it?

Seems like a limited perspective.