The charter school "gravy train"

[sam19]

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/12/10/charter-schools-are-a-gravy-train-say-researchers.html

[sam19]

A new report examines the methods charter school operators can use to enrich themselves
December 10, 2015 12:01AM ET
by Ned Resnikoff @resnikoff
The policy framework for U.S. charter schools encourages “privatization and profiteering,” a research institute said in a report released Thursday.

Charter schools are able to siphon off large quantities of public money for private gain — and only substantial changes to state policies regarding charter schools can stop this, according to the authors of the report from the National Education Policy Center (NEPC) at University of Colorado Boulder.

Many education reform advocates argue that the charter school model — under which publicly funded schools are administered by bodies other than the school board, such as private Education Management Organizations (EMOs) — promotes experimentation and newer, fresher teaching methods. But the same permissive charter regulations intended to boost innovation can also help EMOs pocket cash better spent elsewhere, the NEPC report said.

“What we found is that there are a host of real estate and tax laws that were not put in place with charter schools in mind, but that the owners of charter school enterprises are using in order to profit,” NEPC Director Kevin Welner said. “I think that understanding the nature of the charter school gravy train, as I call it, is extremely important for the public and policymakers."

For example, charter schools are sometimes able to purchase publicly owned real estate for their school facilities through a private, third-party entity. The report highlights how charter operators can make these purchases with taxpayer money, thus acquiring formerly public property at public expense. The third-party purchaser pockets overhead costs associated with arranging the sale.

“This particular type of transaction is usually legal and it can be very logical from the perspective of each of the parties involved,” said Rutgers University professor Bruce Baker, one of the report’s authors, in a statement. “But we should be troubled by the public policy that allows and even encourages this to happen.”

The report also contends that labor costs at charter schools tend to be unusually top-heavy, as EMO executives conserve funds by hiring young, relatively inexpensive staff — and then add the savings to their own salaries.

“Early studies of charter schools in Pennsylvania found charter teacher annual salaries to be on average $18,000 lower than teacher salaries in district schools,” the report said. In contrast, top EMO heads can draw comfortable six-figure salaries, the report said. Eva Moskowitz, a high-profile New York charter advocate and CEO of the city’s Success Academy network of charter schools, was found in the report to earn more than $475,000 annually.

In New York and other cities across the United States, charter schools have become a flashpoint for political fights between community activists, elected officials, teachers unions and EMOs. Over the past few years, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s support for charter schools has become a major point of contention and was one of the underlying grievances that helped drive a 2012 strike by the Chicago Teachers Union.

NEPC Director Welner said that it wouldn’t be realistic to eliminate the charter model, but that it could be markedly improved through reforms.

“I think a much more likely scenario wouldn’t be eliminating charter schools, but designing the rules around charter schools so that they accomplish the goals that we as a society have for our public education system,” he said.

The NEPC report suggests that state authorities impose stricter financial disclosure rules on charter schools, and that school districts should “maintain control over public lands and facilities,” among other policy recommendations.

[imojoebunny]

I am sure there are abuses, but what I see here, is that charters have the ability to transform communities, especially those where the schools are awful, and the city has not been able to improve them for many years. Great schools is not working correctly for me right now, or I could give some examples. If someone makes money on them, like the guy running a major operation and getting paid $475K, I am fine with that because the increase in property values, and thus, tax revenues, not to mention actually educating kids, rather than warehousing them, is worth 100X that from a societal standpoint. The schools I am familiar with are not run by for profit companies, but if the guy is saying that charters are buying the schools from the government, using the money that the government gives them to educate kids, then maybe governments should look for ways work better with charters to use existing facilities, where the land doesn't have to be transferred. The district next to us has all kinds of empty campuses, other schools (charter and private) would love to use, but they make it so hard, that it is essentially impossible. So empty they sit, like giant mausoleums to failure.

[cookiemdough]

When will we learn? Is there a situation where it has worked effectively for the government to outsource something without it turning into soma venue for a few to enrich themselves and still not meet the needs of the public good? I am sure there is something but for the life of me I can't think of it right now.

[cookiemdough]

Dec 12, 2015 9:41:24 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

I am sure there are abuses, but what I see here, is that charters have the ability to transform communities, especially those where the schools are awful, and the city has not been able to improve them for many years. Great schools is not working correctly for me right now, or I could give some examples. If someone makes money on them, like the guy running a major operation and getting paid $475K, I am fine with that because the increase in property values, and thus, tax revenues, not to mention actually educating kids, rather than warehousing them, is worth 100X that from a societal standpoint. The schools I am familiar with are not run by for profit companies, but if the guy is saying that charters are buying the schools from the government, using the money that the government gives them to educate kids, then maybe governments should look for ways work better with charters to use existing facilities, where the land doesn't have to be transferred. The district next to us has all kinds of empty campuses, other schools (charter and private) would love to use, but they make it so hard, that it is essentially impossible. So empty they sit, like giant mausoleums to failure.

Have they transformed communities though? Maybe provided one more acceptable option in a sea of lots of unacceptable ones, sure, but that doesn't change the community. It just adds to the stress of parents to clamor for extremely limited spots in the few that may work out well.

[imojoebunny]

Dec 12, 2015 10:40:45 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Dec 12, 2015 9:41:24 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

I am sure there are abuses, but what I see here, is that charters have the ability to transform communities, especially those where the schools are awful, and the city has not been able to improve them for many years. Great schools is not working correctly for me right now, or I could give some examples. If someone makes money on them, like the guy running a major operation and getting paid $475K, I am fine with that because the increase in property values, and thus, tax revenues, not to mention actually educating kids, rather than warehousing them, is worth 100X that from a societal standpoint. The schools I am familiar with are not run by for profit companies, but if the guy is saying that charters are buying the schools from the government, using the money that the government gives them to educate kids, then maybe governments should look for ways work better with charters to use existing facilities, where the land doesn't have to be transferred. The district next to us has all kinds of empty campuses, other schools (charter and private) would love to use, but they make it so hard, that it is essentially impossible. So empty they sit, like giant mausoleums to failure.

Have they transformed communities though? Maybe provided one more acceptable option in a sea of lots of unacceptable ones, sure, but that doesn't change the community. It just adds to the stress of parents to clamor for extremely limited spots in the few that may work out well.

I would say it has transformed the communities.  Crime is down, people are staying as they move up in their careers, investing in the community, instead of fleeing.  In places that have the charters, home prices are more stable and going up vs. areas with only bad schools, where prices are much lower, and often on a downward trend, as people cannot afford to move or become absent landlords, as they move away to better districts, but cannot sell.  As for the stress of getting into a charter school.  It is nothing compared to facing sending your child to a school that is a 2 on Great Schools everyday, or having to move to an entirely different community.  I used to be a big believer in the neighborhood school, I am not anymore.  It is not a good place for every child, even in a good district.  

I am sure it doesn't work that way everywhere, but that is my observation here.  

[tres3]

Andre Agazzi (a man who didn't complete high school) is a big investor in the Rocketship charters. They are "non-profit" here in TN but Agazzi makes his money by building the school building and then charging "rent" to the non-profit charter.

[joenali]

Charter schools were just ruled unconstitutional in Washington state. They funnel money away from already underfunded public schools.

[joenali]

And also, The Great Schools website should not be used as the dip stick for looking at school success or failure.

[LadySusan]

Dec 12, 2015 22:01:05 GMT -5 joenali said:

Charter schools were just ruled unconstitutional in Washington state. They funnel money away from already underfunded public schools.

I did not know this.  The Washington state constitution is Very Serious about public education so I guess I should not be surprised.

I have mixed feelings about Charter schools.  I really like the idea that they can be an opt-in sandbox or testing environment for new ideas but at the same time, we don't have so much money that we can afford to divert money away from neighborhood schools.

I look forward to seeing how this thread develops.

[NewOrleans]

lol at "some abuses" and at Greatschools, which is the Yelp of the school system.

I might just decide to hop on a computer and actually put my full effort into responding to this. We'll see. I'm cozy in bed right now.

[NewOrleans]

Dec 12, 2015 22:39:50 GMT -5 LadySusan said:

Dec 12, 2015 22:01:05 GMT -5 joenali said:

Charter schools were just ruled unconstitutional in Washington state. They funnel money away from already underfunded public schools.

I did not know this.  The Washington state constitution is Very Serious about public education so I guess I should not be surprised.

I have mixed feelings about Charter schools.  I really like the idea that they can be an opt-in sandbox or testing environment for new ideas but at the same time, we don't have so much money that we can afford to divert money away from neighborhood schools.

I look forward to seeing how this thread develops.

You don't need a charter school to sandbox and pilot new ideas.  See the many traditional public schools that have, for generations, done so. Off the top of my head, recent Examples include standards-based grading, one-to-one iPads, language immersion schools, dual-credit or certification programs.

[NewOrleans]

Dec 12, 2015 9:41:30 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

When will we learn? Is there a situation where it has worked effectively for the government to outsource something without it turning into soma venue for a few to enrich themselves and still not meet the needs of the public good? I am sure there is something but for the life of me I can't think of it right now.

Defense contractors! Oh wait. LOL

[NewOrleans]

Dec 12, 2015 9:41:24 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

I am sure there are abuses, but what I see here, is that charters have the ability to transform communities, especially those where the schools are awful, and the city has not been able to improve them for many years. Great schools is not working correctly for me right now, or I could give some examples. If someone makes money on them, like the guy running a major operation and getting paid $475K, I am fine with that because the increase in property values, and thus, tax revenues, not to mention actually educating kids, rather than warehousing them, is worth 100X that from a societal standpoint. The schools I am familiar with are not run by for profit companies, but if the guy is saying that charters are buying the schools from the government, using the money that the government gives them to educate kids, then maybe governments should look for ways work better with charters to use existing facilities, where the land doesn't have to be transferred. The district next to us has all kinds of empty campuses, other schools (charter and private) would love to use, but they make it so hard, that it is essentially impossible. So empty they sit, like giant mausoleums to failure.

This is all I have time for right now, so I'll be back on a computer for more good times later

"I'm sure there are SOME abuses" lololllllllllllllllll

at least 4 charters were under federal criminal investigation for conflicts of interest and cronyism
Collecting payments for SPED students but not  spending it on SPED

2006 California Charter Academy chain went bankrupt after the CEO got 100 million from CA to fund his schools
, taking the 100 million tax dollars into bankruptcy with him never to be heard from again
2014 (I think?) report on fraud and financial mismanagement in PA schools-- ex: an administrator put $2.6 million from his school funds to his own church property
2 PA charter school operators stole $900,000 from the school

a cyber school entrepreneur diverted $8 million of school funds for houses, a Florida condo, and a plane.
(none of these crimes were detected by state agencies overseeing the schools. Why?  Because those agencies are not adequately funded to audit them)

KIPP charter schools get $6,500 more per pupil in revenues from public or private sources, but only $457 in spending is accounted for because KIPP won’t and doesn’t have to disclose how it uses money received from private sources.

in the past decade, state auditors in Ohio found $27.3 million improperly spent by charter schools in Ohio 
28 million dollars of charter school fraud in the last year ALONE


Do you want links?

[lexus]

Plus they pay their teachers poorly, don't allow them to unionize, don't afford them the same benefits as public school teachers (prep time and duty free lunch), and co sides their teachers at will employees- at least in my area.

[oscarnerdjulief]

In Ohio, there was a scandal because the charter schools were cherry-picking which schools and students were being counted because they didn't want to damage the standing of charter schools overall.

[StrawberryBlondie]

NewOrleans, do you have anything good or bad on charter schools in MN? One of my good friends is an admin at one and I'm pretty sure they're just public schools that have a specific focus (arts, language immersion, etc).

[NewOrleans]

Dec 12, 2015 9:41:24 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

I am sure there are abuses, but what I see here, is that charters have the ability to transform communities, especially those where the schools are awful, and the city has not been able to improve them for many years. Great schools is not working correctly for me right now, or I could give some examples. If someone makes money on them, like the guy running a major operation and getting paid $475K, I am fine with that because the increase in property values, and thus, tax revenues, not to mention actually educating kids, rather than warehousing them, is worth 100X that from a societal standpoint. The schools I am familiar with are not run by for profit companies, but if the guy is saying that charters are buying the schools from the government, using the money that the government gives them to educate kids, then maybe governments should look for ways work better with charters to use existing facilities, where the land doesn't have to be transferred. The district next to us has all kinds of empty campuses, other schools (charter and private) would love to use, but they make it so hard, that it is essentially impossible. So empty they sit, like giant mausoleums to failure.

ok, so back to you.  

Why would they be improving property values?  No evidence exists to prove that charter schools outperform traditional public schools (hereafter referred to as TPS).

Chronologically:

The 2003 NAEP exam (NAEP is National Assessment of Educational Progress) included charters for the first time; before that, they were never included.  There was no measurable difference in reading or math in 4th graders from TPS versus  charters
.  Poor students in TPS's actually performed better in both math and reading, and overall, TPS students outperformed the charter students.  AMAZINGLY, this information was ACTUALLY HIDDEN by the feds, literally.  The government didn't release this data; they only released the TPS data.  The AFT (American Federation of Teachers, the largest union), are the ones who found it stashed on the NAEP website.  Why didn't the government release this date when they announced the other results?  Well, "coincidentally" (lol), NCLB wanted to take over public schools and make them charter schools
.  Isn't it REMARKABLE how the evidence that would have prevented privatization was never released?!  

There was a review study by an economist named Caroline Hoxby in 2004 saying charters were outperforming.  But it didn't control for demographics.  Department of Ed data, when comparing kids with similar characteristics found no outperformance.

A RAND study in 2008 concluded that gains in charter schools were statistically insignificant compared to TPS.

The next year, 6/28 privately managed Philly schools outperformed TPS counterparts but 10 performed worse.  The rest were negligible differences.

Then we get to the CREDO studies.  CREDO is out of Stanford.  The 2009 study showed that only 17% of charters outperformed TPS's.  See pg. 3 of the study for a summary.  credo.stanford.edu/reports/MULTIPLE_CHOICE_CREDO.pdf

The 2013 CREDO study showed much bigger gains in charters than in TPS's. Except that the results were so variable state by state that it couldn't really be shown t hat charter schools were better schools.  credo.stanford.edu/documents/NCSS%202013%20Final%20Draft.pdf

This article basically says both the CREDO studies are full of shit, lol. www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/09/24/the-bottom-line-on-charter-school-studies/

And then the 2015 CREDO tried to show that charter schools were doing really well.  But it was funded by the Gates Foundation which is up to its ass in charter school investment and naturally stood to gain by a report that said how great charters are.  And the 2015 study didn't explain its methods (example: how do you calculate that kids spent more time in class?) nepc.colorado.edu/newsletter/2013/07/review-credo-2013


So... no empirical evidence exists to demonstrate the positive effects of charters on student performance on tests.

[NewOrleans]

Dec 12, 2015 9:41:24 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

I am sure there are abuses, but what I see here, is that charters have the ability to transform communities, especially those where the schools are awful, and the city has not been able to improve them for many years. Great schools is not working correctly for me right now, or I could give some examples. If someone makes money on them, like the guy running a major operation and getting paid $475K, I am fine with that because the increase in property values, and thus, tax revenues, not to mention actually educating kids, rather than warehousing them, is worth 100X that from a societal standpoint. The schools I am familiar with are not run by for profit companies, but if the guy is saying that charters are buying the schools from the government, using the money that the government gives them to educate kids, then maybe governments should look for ways work better with charters to use existing facilities, where the land doesn't have to be transferred. The district next to us has all kinds of empty campuses, other schools (charter and private) would love to use, but they make it so hard, that it is essentially impossible. So empty they sit, like giant mausoleums to failure.

Part III

I've already talked about how charters are simply corrupt and not accountable.  

Public schools at least regulate teacher credentials.  That's not happening in charter schools:





Part IV

Charter schools use discriminatory enrollment policies.  They admit fewer kids with disabilities, fewer ELL students, and they have really subversive ways of limiting "undesireables" (like requiring parental volunteering or SSN's.  GUESS WHO GETS AFFECTED BY THAT?).  They can expel kids, too!  And they do.  Liberally.  GUESS WHO GETS AFFECTED BY THAT?!  (Pick me, pick me!  Since we know that kids of color get suspended and expelled disproportionately nationwide in all schools... you draw the inference).  And when kids get bounced from charters, guess where they go?  To their local TPS!  So let's talk again about all those test results that showed the success of charters.  Maybe they really are doing better than TPS's.  But their results don't include the most high-needs students. 

on ELL students in NYC: www.capitalnewyork.com/article/city-hall/2014/10/8553948/study-fewer-english-learners-charters-district-schools

On how charters have fewer students in SPED: www.gao.gov/assets/600/591435.pdf

"the vast majority of charters have proportionally fewer special education and English language learning students" (they have a table about DC schools)
ncspe.org/publications_files/OP96.pdf

on how they kick kids out: articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-02-26/news/ct-chicago-schools-discipline-met-20140226_1_charter-schools-andrew-broy-district-run-schools
more on how they kick kids out: www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/11/19/report-cites-high-suspension-rates-for-charter-schools/AF3y7UxpQJsGtytOP7I6RJ/story.html
more on how they kick kids out: A 2012 report by the New York Civil Liberties Union found that some charter schools suspend students

at rates many times higher than the city’s traditional public schools. For example, the report found that
 two Brooklyn Collegiate Charter Schools in the UnCommon Schools network suspend students at 35
 and 40 percent rates, respectively. Achievement First, another charter network with strict behavior codes
 suspends 4 to 18 percent of its students at its five city schools, higher than the city’s average.  annenberginstitute.org/sites/default/files/NYC_CharterBrief2014.pdf

on  how they discipline kids. In padded rooms:  www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/padded-calm-down-room-causing-anxiety-kids-article-1.1543983 Note that that is at a KIPP school, ostensibly one of the only truly achieving charter chains.

[NewOrleans]

So? Who benefits from the presence of charter schools? Apparently, not the kids, as there is not consistent improved achievement, and their school climates are... dubious. And not the teachers, who often can't unionize (7% are unionized? prospect.org/article/when-charters-go-union ), are paid less than their TPS counterparts, and are less experienced than their TPS counterparts, and have higher turnover (whiiiich brings us back to how the kids lose).

Here are the winners in no particular order:

1. politicians who get to say they took on unions.

2. politicans who get charter school money: In Ohio, two firms operate 9% of the state’s charter schools and are collecting 38% of the state’s charter school funding increase this year. The operators of both firms donate generously to elected Republicans
www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2013/09/10/charter-school-gravy-train-runs-express-to-fat-city/

3. Charter school execs who make 2x as much as TPS counterparts
www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-singer/charter-school-executive-profit_b_5093883.html

4. Corporations who, in a massive conflict of interest, benefit financially from showing schools are failing


And just for fun, because you brought it up, charter schools are not improving property values.
journal.srsa.org/ojs/index.php/RRS/article/viewFile/201/156
This guy's dissertation is on property values and charters. surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1181&context=etd
He seems to say that poorer neighborhood values go up after charters come, but richer neighborhoods go down.

[imojoebunny]

Dec 13, 2015 18:45:27 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Dec 12, 2015 9:41:24 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

I am sure there are abuses, but what I see here, is that charters have the ability to transform communities, especially those where the schools are awful, and the city has not been able to improve them for many years. Great schools is not working correctly for me right now, or I could give some examples. If someone makes money on them, like the guy running a major operation and getting paid $475K, I am fine with that because the increase in property values, and thus, tax revenues, not to mention actually educating kids, rather than warehousing them, is worth 100X that from a societal standpoint. The schools I am familiar with are not run by for profit companies, but if the guy is saying that charters are buying the schools from the government, using the money that the government gives them to educate kids, then maybe governments should look for ways work better with charters to use existing facilities, where the land doesn't have to be transferred. The district next to us has all kinds of empty campuses, other schools (charter and private) would love to use, but they make it so hard, that it is essentially impossible. So empty they sit, like giant mausoleums to failure.

ok, so back to you.  

Why would they be improving property values?  No evidence exists to prove that charter schools outperform traditional public schools (hereafter referred to as TPS).


So... no empirical evidence exists to demonstrate the positive effects of charters on student performance on tests.

In the four charter schools I see in communities close to mine, where I have friends who both teach and send their kids, these things have happened.  No one is imagining that it has been effective.  If you step out of the charter school district, you will pay less for a house, period.  You will have fewer people who stay for the duration of their child's schooling.  As I said, this is my observation.

You seem to want to throw the baby out with the bath water, but there are shining stars.  None of these are for profit schools.  People may like to say, ignore great schools, but you cannot ignore every test score and every result, and you cannot ignore all the people who stay in communities and invest in them because there is a charter that is a 9 on great schools, when the alternative is a 2.  Well, maybe you can, but I know no one who would send their child to the alternative public school, thus, the public schools have closed because they SUCKED.  

You can argue your nationwide data to your hearts content, but you won't change the fact that people who can otherwise afford to move, remain, on a micro level in communities in Atlanta like Grant Park, East Lake, Kirkwood, and Avondale Estates because of charters.  Yes,  some do not make great strides on great schools, like the one in the middle of the largest public housing complex in the southeast, but they also have much bigger challenges than other schools, as do the other schools in the other neighborhoods.  

[NewOrleans]

Additional works cited where we've discussed this topic:

pandce.proboards.com/thread/475293/state-charter-schools-declared-unconstitutional

pandce.proboards.com/thread/463725/timely-kasich-doing-education-ruining

pandce.proboards.com/thread/276390/tracks-transfers-charter-school-students

pandce.proboards.com/thread/215539/students-set-fail

pandce.proboards.com/thread/267085/racist-history-charter-school-movement

pandce.proboards.com/thread/219463/charter-schools-short-careers-choice

pandce.proboards.com/thread/434044/urban-charter-schools-student-findings

And just an added bonus because I read it recently:  the UN is concerned about for-profit schools: www.ei-ie.org/en/news/news_details/3599

And this, which is recent-- I follow Philly schools closely: www.phillymag.com/citified/2015/10/08/helen-gym-charter-schools/

[NewOrleans]

Dec 13, 2015 19:45:26 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

Dec 13, 2015 18:45:27 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

ok, so back to you.  

Why would they be improving property values?  No evidence exists to prove that charter schools outperform traditional public schools (hereafter referred to as TPS).


So... no empirical evidence exists to demonstrate the positive effects of charters on student performance on tests.

In the four charter schools I see in communities close to mine, where I have friends who both teach and send their kids, these things have happened.  No one is imagining that it has been effective.  If you step out of the charter school district, you will pay less for a house, period.  You will have fewer people who stay for the duration of their child's schooling.  As I said, this is my observation.

You seem to want to throw the baby out with the bath water, but there are shining stars.  None of these are for profit schools.  People may like to say, ignore great schools, but you cannot ignore every test score and every result, and you cannot ignore all the people who stay in communities and invest in them because there is a charter that is a 9 on great schools, when the alternative is a 2.  Well, maybe you can, but I know no one who would send their child to the alternative public school, thus, the public schools have closed because they SUCKED.  

You can argue your nationwide data to your hearts content, but you won't change the fact that people who can otherwise afford to move, remain, on a micro level in communities in Atlanta like Grant Park, East Lake, Kirkwood, and Avondale Estates because of charters.  Yes,  some do not make great strides on great schools, like the one in the middle of the largest public housing complex in the southeast, but they also have much bigger challenges than other schools, as do the other schools in the other neighborhoods.  

You don't like to read much, do  you?  The "thrower-outers" of babies are the school reformers (aka charter advocates).  I'm trying to advocate for strong, comprehensive schools.  

And if you'd read, you'd see that charter schools do not have bigger challenges.

What is your obsession with GreatSchools?

[NewOrleans]

imojoebunny I'm glad you brought up Atlanta!

This report explores this unique feature of metro-Atlanta charter schools to identify the change in single-family residential transaction values associated with conversion and start-up charter schools. The results suggest households are willing to pay a premium for the increased probability of admission to charter schools in priority one admissions zones. Estimates range from 7-13 percent, with an average increase in sales prices of approximately 10 percent.  frc.gsu.edu/files/2015/08/Georgia-Charter-Schools-Property-Values_August2015.pdf

Unique in that it's not necessarily reproducible.

And also, results.  The schools not necessarily getting results because, you know, data that you don't want to hear about.

And competition to get into schools. Who do you think benefits from that?  (hint: not kids whose parents do not know how to research / navigate the system.  And not kids who can afford to move into the nice (gentrified???) Atlanta area.)


What about this sounds desirable?

[imojoebunny]

Dec 13, 2015 19:53:33 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

imojoebunny I'm glad you brought up Atlanta!

This report explores this unique feature of metro-Atlanta charter schools to identify the change in single-family residential transaction values associated with conversion and start-up charter schools. The results suggest households are willing to pay a premium for the increased probability of admission to charter schools in priority one admissions zones. Estimates range from 7-13 percent, with an average increase in sales prices of approximately 10 percent.  frc.gsu.edu/files/2015/08/Georgia-Charter-Schools-Property-Values_August2015.pdf

Unique in that it's not necessarily reproducible.

And also, results.  The schools not necessarily getting results because, you know, data that you don't want to hear about.

And competition to get into schools. Who do you think benefits from that?  (hint: not kids whose parents do not know how to research / navigate the system.  And not kids who can afford to move into the nice (gentrified???) Atlanta area.)


What about this sounds desirable?

You know what is not desirable in any study ever?  Schools with 99% poverty.  You know what changed that in the communities I mentioned, charter schools.  You know who benefits, all kids who go there, especially the kids who cannot move.  What you are suggesting, is basically lets all wallow in the crap school and drive away the parents who have other options, and thus, the people who can help things get better.   I do not consider schools with >68% reduced lunch and 85% minority to be "gentrified", but you clearly have your own definition of what is acceptable.  

[joenali]

Dec 13, 2015 19:45:26 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

Dec 13, 2015 18:45:27 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

ok, so back to you.  

Why would they be improving property values?  No evidence exists to prove that charter schools outperform traditional public schools (hereafter referred to as TPS).


So... no empirical evidence exists to demonstrate the positive effects of charters on student performance on tests.

In the four charter schools I see in communities close to mine, where I have friends who both teach and send their kids, these things have happened.  No one is imagining that it has been effective.  If you step out of the charter school district, you will pay less for a house, period.  You will have fewer people who stay for the duration of their child's schooling.  As I said, this is my observation.

You seem to want to throw the baby out with the bath water, but there are shining stars.  None of these are for profit schools.  People may like to say, ignore great schools, but you cannot ignore every test score and every result, and you cannot ignore all the people who stay in communities and invest in them because there is a charter that is a 9 on great schools, when the alternative is a 2.  Well, maybe you can, but I know no one who would send their child to the alternative public school, thus, the public schools have closed because they SUCKED.  

You can argue your nationwide data to your hearts content, but you won't change the fact that people who can otherwise afford to move, remain, on a micro level in communities in Atlanta like Grant Park, East Lake, Kirkwood, and Avondale Estates because of charters.  Yes,  some do not make great strides on great schools, like the one in the middle of the largest public housing complex in the southeast, but they also have much bigger challenges than other schools, as do the other schools in the other neighborhoods.  

Do you know what makes a school a 2? Special education students, ELL students, because their test scores are counted (most fail them) toward the overall score of a school. Like NewOrleans pointed out a charter school can pick and choose its population, therefore making them "better" than the public school down the street that serves all children.

[joenali]

And stop basing your argument off of great schools! It's a terrible website! Lol!

[NewOrleans]

Dec 13, 2015 20:24:36 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

Dec 13, 2015 19:53:33 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

imojoebunny I'm glad you brought up Atlanta!

This report explores this unique feature of metro-Atlanta charter schools to identify the change in single-family residential transaction values associated with conversion and start-up charter schools. The results suggest households are willing to pay a premium for the increased probability of admission to charter schools in priority one admissions zones. Estimates range from 7-13 percent, with an average increase in sales prices of approximately 10 percent.  frc.gsu.edu/files/2015/08/Georgia-Charter-Schools-Property-Values_August2015.pdf

Unique in that it's not necessarily reproducible.

And also, results.  The schools not necessarily getting results because, you know, data that you don't want to hear about.

And competition to get into schools. Who do you think benefits from that?  (hint: not kids whose parents do not know how to research / navigate the system.  And not kids who can afford to move into the nice (gentrified???) Atlanta area.)


What about this sounds desirable?

You know what is not desirable in any study ever?  Schools with 99% poverty.  You know what changed that in the communities I mentioned, charter schools.  You know who benefits, all kids who go there, especially the kids who cannot move.  What you are suggesting, is basically lets all wallow in the crap school and drive away the parents who have other options, and thus, the people who can help things get better.   I do not consider schools with >68% reduced lunch and 85% minority to be "gentrified", but you clearly have your own definition of what is acceptable.  

In the interest of fairness, I put gentrified with a ? because I don't know the area.  Apologies if  I was mistaken!  I do NOT want to spread misinformation.  I do want to correct it, though.  And I tried with you, but I was apparently just "waving data."  Come back when you're ready for a serious discussion! 

[NewOrleans]

Dec 13, 2015 20:26:43 GMT -5 joenali said:

Dec 13, 2015 19:45:26 GMT -5 imojoebunny said:

In the four charter schools I see in communities close to mine, where I have friends who both teach and send their kids, these things have happened.  No one is imagining that it has been effective.  If you step out of the charter school district, you will pay less for a house, period.  You will have fewer people who stay for the duration of their child's schooling.  As I said, this is my observation.

You seem to want to throw the baby out with the bath water, but there are shining stars.  None of these are for profit schools.  People may like to say, ignore great schools, but you cannot ignore every test score and every result, and you cannot ignore all the people who stay in communities and invest in them because there is a charter that is a 9 on great schools, when the alternative is a 2.  Well, maybe you can, but I know no one who would send their child to the alternative public school, thus, the public schools have closed because they SUCKED.  

You can argue your nationwide data to your hearts content, but you won't change the fact that people who can otherwise afford to move, remain, on a micro level in communities in Atlanta like Grant Park, East Lake, Kirkwood, and Avondale Estates because of charters.  Yes,  some do not make great strides on great schools, like the one in the middle of the largest public housing complex in the southeast, but they also have much bigger challenges than other schools, as do the other schools in the other neighborhoods.  

Do you know what makes a school a 2? Special education students, ELL students, because their test scores are counted (most fail them) toward the overall score of a school. Like NewOrleans pointed out a charter school can pick and choose its population, therefore making them "better" than the public school down the street that serves all children.

STOP WAVING DATA!

[NewOrleans]

Dec 13, 2015 17:29:32 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

NewOrleans , do you have anything good or bad on charter schools in MN? One of my good friends is an admin at one and I'm pretty sure they're just public schools that have a specific focus (arts, language immersion, etc).

I do, actually! Just this year, I read an article about how like 75% of them didn't meet the state proficiency goals, the achievement gap widened in like 75% of them (give or take a few %), and like half of students were not proficient in reading (but the TPS students were again, like 75% proficient).  

(Waves more data)