Murder, or mercy?

[btdt]

(title mine)
www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/crime/2015/12/07/man-allegedly-shot-wife-end-her-suffering/76955444/ 

Nelson and Evelyn Harvey were married for 65 years.



The couple had spent the last nine years in a West Side retirement home as Evelyn fought a terminal illness, according to El Paso police and court documents. Nelson is 91. Evelyn was 93.



On Saturday night, Nelson, tired of his wife’s suffering, allegedly shot and killed her in their home at the Monte Vista at Coronado retirement center, 1575 Belvidere, a complaint affidavit stated.



Nelson Harvey was arrested by El Paso police on suspicion of murder on Sunday after the death was discovered by caretakers. He was jailed under a $25,000 bond.



A court document stated that Nelson Harvey told court officers that he has no family and that his only friends at the retirement home are in their 80s or older.



According to a complaint affidavit filed by an El Paso police detective, the deadly shooting was discovered hours after it had occurred and three hours after a home health care worker was told that Evelyn Harvey had died.




About 8:10 a.m. Sunday, a home health care worker doing a daily check on the couple was met by Nelson Harvey at the door of the couple's home in Room No. 158, the affidavit stated.



Nelson Harvey told the worker that Evelyn Harvey "had passed away but he did not provide any details," the affidavit stated. The worker left and had believed that the woman had died from her illness in her sleep.



About 11:30 a.m., a supervisor of the home health care agency and staff went to the room and found Nelson Harvey sleeping on the couch, according to the affidavit. When they woke him up, he "informed them that the victim had died during the course of the night and made reference that he was tired of her suffering so he shot her," the affidavit stated.




The affidavit stated that workers then found Evelyn Harvey laying on her bed with a gunshot wound to the back of the head. She had no signs of life. Staff asked Nelson Harvey if he had a gun. He then walked into his room, opened a drawer, took out a handgun and handed over.



The affidavit stated that Nelson Harvey allegedly also told police investigators that he had shot his wife in the back of the head with a handgun. The shooting occurred between 9 and 9:30 p.m. Saturday, police stated.



Public records show that the Harveys had previously lived in San Antonio.



Daniel Borunda may be reached at 546-6102; [e-mail]; @borundadaniel on Twitter.

[Velvetshady]

Murder.


I'm pretty much 100% pro the right to die as one can get. This isn't that.

[asdfjkl]

There is more to this story, right?  

I mean, I become skeptical of reporting when it fails to comment on the ONE major issue in the story.  Like was this woman actually suffering and if so, from what?  "A terminal illness" is a lot of things and not all of them involve suffering.

Also, are we assuming Mr. Harvey, at 91 years old, is 100% free of senility?  Questions.  I have questions.  The failure of this article to acknowledge that those questions even exists immediately makes me think that the journalist has their own agenda.

[Deleted]

Murder for sure. A similar situation happened with a colleagues parents, but it was a murder suicide. The father's note claimed he did it because she was suffering but according to the hospital statement she'd actually been improving & was going to be released (shooting took place at the hospital)

[asdfjkl]

So obviously this is murder.  It's murder even if she had been suffering.  Because our laws do not allow you to kill someone in this situation.  I think the discussion that follows from this though, is in what circumstances SHOULD a person be allowed to end another's suffering.  What kind of suffering does that person have to have?  Do we equate pain with suffering or do we allow for the fact that some people find that the emotional component of deteriorating health creates a kind of suffering that they seek to end.  

We are also on the ever-famous slippery slope here.  Because this old man keeps saying HE was tired of her suffering, but do we take that literally.  Like he killed her for his own sake?  Maybe he did.  Or maybe he's been married to her for 60 years and her suffering IS his suffering... Dollars to donuts this case is about 1000X more complicated than "murder" and certainly there's more to it than is reported here.

[penguingrrl]

Yes it was murder in a very technical sense. But as @asdfjkl has said, there is far too little information given.

What terminal illness did she have? Was she actively suffering and declining? How long were they married? I have a hard time believing that a 91 year old would suddenly turn into a murderer. I suspect it was a mercy killing, especially if they had been married for 70 years and he knew she was declining but had more pain to look forward to.

[ttt]

Dec 15, 2015 9:19:55 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

There is more to this story, right?  

I mean, I become skeptical of reporting when it fails to comment on the ONE major issue in the story.  Like was this woman actually suffering and if so, from what?  "A terminal illness" is a lot of things and not all of them involve suffering.

Also, are we assuming Mr. Harvey, at 91 years old, is 100% free of senility?  Questions.  I have questions.  The failure of this article to acknowledge that those questions even exists immediately makes me think that the journalist has their own agenda.

I keep wondering this too. Was there any indication that she *wanted* to die??

[asdfjkl]

Dec 15, 2015 9:30:57 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Yes it was murder in a very technical sense. But as @asdfjkl has said, there is far too little information given.

What terminal illness did she have? Was she actively suffering and declining? How long were they married? I have a hard time believing that a 91 year old would suddenly turn into a murderer. I suspect it was a mercy killing, especially if they had been married for 70 years and he knew she was declining but had more pain to look forward to.

Digging around a bit:

I have found that they were married for 65 years.
Also, the "I was tired of her suffering" may or may not be his actual quote.  In one article it comes from a police report where the police offer writes that the reason Harvey shot his wife was because "he was tried of her suffering."  Whose words those were is not entirely clear.

No idea what her actual illness was.  Whether she was in hospice.  Whether she was still getting treatment... 

Also, no information on WhyTF he had a gun in a nursing home. 

[Deleted]

@spb, I don't think anyone other than the patient in consultation with their doctor should be able to make this decision. I know some people think Oregon's Death with Dignity Act is too restrictive, mostly for cases with fast progression because of the time limits, but I think it's a good starting point.

What we really need is better medical care for everyone. If I had a lower standard of insurance, my DH would have suffered a lot in his last few months. But since we had access to a high level of care, including pain management and hospice care, he didn't have to. My experience with this situation has made me really committed to doing what I can to make sure others have access to care like this.

[asdfjkl]

Dec 15, 2015 9:35:17 GMT -5 @ameliapond said:

@spb, I don't think anyone other than the patient in consultation with their doctor should be able to make this decision. I know some people think Oregon's Death with Dignity Act is too restrictive, mostly for cases with fast progression because of the time limits, but I think it's a good starting point.

What we really need is better medical care for everyone. If I had a lower standard of insurance, my DH would have suffered a lot in his last few months. But since we had access to a high level of care, including pain management and hospice care, he didn't have to. My experience with this situation has made me really committed to doing what I can to make sure others have access to care like this.

I agree with this.  And I'll say that I'm uncomfortable with PAS even though I guess I technically support it.  Just looking at this case though, these folks are in Texas, so their options are going to be limited.  I'm just trying to pick through the really superficial reporting on this to figure out what the actual story is.  This kind of situation is not okay.  You cannot shoot someone to end their suffering even if they ask you to. I'm pretty comfortable with laws prohibiting that.  But, as you note, we fail as a society to encourage and provide support surrounding the dying process, particularly to people on the fringes of society (the very elderly, the poor, minorities, and women).  So, is that what was happening here, or is this guy a grade-A asshole who was tired of his wife's obstructive sleep apnea, so he shot her in the back of the head?

[penguingrrl]

Dec 15, 2015 9:34:36 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Dec 15, 2015 9:30:57 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Yes it was murder in a very technical sense. But as @asdfjkl has said, there is far too little information given.

What terminal illness did she have? Was she actively suffering and declining? How long were they married? I have a hard time believing that a 91 year old would suddenly turn into a murderer. I suspect it was a mercy killing, especially if they had been married for 70 years and he knew she was declining but had more pain to look forward to.

Digging around a bit:

I have found that they were married for 65 years.
Also, the "I was tired of her suffering" may or may not be his actual quote.  In one article it comes from a police report where the police offer writes that the reason Harvey shot his wife was because "he was tried of her suffering."  Whose words those were is not entirely clear.

No idea what her actual illness was.  Whether she was in hospice.  Whether she was still getting treatment... 

Also, no information on WhyTF he had a gun in a nursing home. 

Obviously it could be that he's a depraved murderer, but given the scarcity of information available I'm not judging any of this. I have a very hard time believing that after 65 years of marriage he suddenly snapped and murdered her in cold blood.

But to your point about why he had a gun in a nursing home, yeah. WTF is that?

[penguingrrl]

Dec 15, 2015 9:35:17 GMT -5 @ameliapond said:

@spb, I don't think anyone other than the patient in consultation with their doctor should be able to make this decision. I know some people think Oregon's Death with Dignity Act is too restrictive, mostly for cases with fast progression because of the time limits, but I think it's a good starting point.

What we really need is better medical care for everyone. If I had a lower standard of insurance, my DH would have suffered a lot in his last few months. But since we had access to a high level of care, including pain management and hospice care, he didn't have to. My experience with this situation has made me really committed to doing what I can to make sure others have access to care like this.

I think that's also a really important thing to consider. Everyone in this country should have access to whatever treatments are necessary either to hopefully heal them or to at least leave them in minimal pain. The fact that that's a luxury afforded to only some is a travesty. 

I'm not sure how I feel about physician assisted suicide and more details could sway me on this case from probable mercy to absolute cold blooded murder, but I do think that we need to consider the dignity of terminal patients a lot more than we do. 

And (((hugs))) to you. 

[lingome]

Sounds like murder based on what is given.

But I can hardly get past the fact that this guy had a gun. 91 and in a nursing home. You are at a point in your life at which you are unable to live on your own but are trusted with a firearm? Arguably, it could be only his wife's needing care that brought them to the facility, but at 91 I can't imagine how being armed in such a residence makes sense.

[Velvetshady]

Dec 15, 2015 9:45:09 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I can't call it murder without knowing more specifics of the case and of her mindset. On its face, it appears to be murder; but the article seems to be written in a way that slants the point of view in that direction ("he was tired of her suffering and so he shot her").

The only specific that would convince me this shouldn't be called murder is if there was a video tape of her stating she is ready to die and wants her DH to shot her in the head while she sleeps. And he needs to be in the shot along with an independent witness to prove he wasn't threatening her to say it. Then I'd say it *shouldn't* be deemed murder, but legally it still is.

Why, if this was her choice, would she ask her husband to do it in a way that would put him in jail vs any other method where some doubt of his guilt could be present? And if she wasn't actively involved in the choice, then it is murder not assisted suicide.

[asdfjkl]

Dec 15, 2015 9:59:16 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Dec 15, 2015 9:45:09 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I can't call it murder without knowing more specifics of the case and of her mindset. On its face, it appears to be murder; but the article seems to be written in a way that slants the point of view in that direction ("he was tired of her suffering and so he shot her").

The only specific that would convince me this shouldn't be called murder is if there was a video tape of her stating she is ready to die and wants her DH to shot her in the head while she sleeps. And he needs to be in the shot along with an independent witness to prove he wasn't threatening her to say it. Then I'd say it *shouldn't* be deemed murder, but legally it still is.

Why, if this was her choice, would she ask her husband to do it in a way that would put him in jail vs any other method where some doubt of his guilt could be present? And if she wasn't actively involved in the choice, then it is murder not assisted suicide.

It's murder in all cases because that is how our laws work.  As for your questions about "why didn't they use a more sleuthy, strategically smart method?"  I'm going to go with (1) old; and (2) because it's actually hard to get enough drugs to kill yourself even as a terminally ill patient.  Particularly if your terminal illness is something like congestive heart failure, COPD Alzheimers, Parkinson's, or really anything other than than cancer.

[cattledogkisses]

This happened in our town a few years ago with an elderly couple, only the husband killed himself after shooting his wife.

The wife had advanced Alzheimers. They had a daily aide/nurse who came to the house to take care of her, and who discovered the bodies.

I just felt sad about it.

[jojoandleo]

Man, I am all for assisted suicide when someone is suffering and terminal, but I do NOT want to be fucking shot. A-you can survive a gun shot depending on where you were shot. B-that shit sounds painful. Just inject me and let me go peacefully.

[cattledogkisses]

Dec 15, 2015 10:15:06 GMT -5 jojoandleo said:

Man, I am all for assisted suicide when someone is suffering and terminal, but I do NOT want to be fucking shot. A-you can survive a gun shot depending on where you were shot. B-that shit sounds painful. Just inject me and let me go peacefully.

I'm not trying to argue any particular side here, but I think a gunshot to the head is pretty instantaneous, and therefore probably painless.  (FTR, I wouldn't want to be shot either though.)

[Velvetshady]

Dec 15, 2015 10:03:24 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Dec 15, 2015 9:59:16 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

The only specific that would convince me this shouldn't be called murder is if there was a video tape of her stating she is ready to die and wants her DH to shot her in the head while she sleeps. And he needs to be in the shot along with an independent witness to prove he wasn't threatening her to say it. Then I'd say it *shouldn't* be deemed murder, but legally it still is.

Why, if this was her choice, would she ask her husband to do it in a way that would put him in jail vs any other method where some doubt of his guilt could be present? And if she wasn't actively involved in the choice, then it is murder not assisted suicide.

It's murder in all cases because that is how our laws work. And I'd say it show work if there is no proof that the individual involved wanted to die.


 As for your questions about "why didn't they use a more sleuthy, strategically smart method?"  I'm going to go with (1) old; and (2) because it's actually hard to get enough drugs to kill yourself even as a terminally ill patient.  Particularly if your terminal illness is something like congestive heart failure, COPD Alzheimers, Parkinson's, or really anything other than than cancer. I haven't seen any evidence (in my 5 five Internet only research) this was a "they" or "her" decision vs a "he" decision, which is my whole issue here. I guess I would just hope if I were in her position and wanted this, one of us would be aware enough to, I don't know, put my hand on the gun and shoot the side of my head vs doing it in a way that there is no way for a believable case I was involved/okay with it. I might be ready to die, but I'd want to do what I could to protect my husband as he lived on.

Overall, some more details on what her actual condition was would be helpful here.

[sushi]

I'm going with merciful murder.

My gramma is almost 88, and doesn't have a terminal illness, but is suffering. She should be in a SNF but instead has 24 hr care. And I know my grandpa feels so helpless about it. They've been married for 67 years. I'm sure when one dies the other will soon follow. It's totally against both their personalities for murder/suicide. But, if it were, and they couldn't get the drugs, but they had a gun, well, you use what you have.

It's probably easier to have a gun in a nursing facility than lethal drugs.

[jojoandleo]

Dec 15, 2015 10:19:55 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Dec 15, 2015 10:15:06 GMT -5 jojoandleo said:

Man, I am all for assisted suicide when someone is suffering and terminal, but I do NOT want to be fucking shot. A-you can survive a gun shot depending on where you were shot. B-that shit sounds painful. Just inject me and let me go peacefully.

I'm not trying to argue any particular side here, but I think a gunshot to the head is pretty instantaneous, and therefore probably painless.  (FTR, I wouldn't want to be shot either though.)

People have survived gun shots to the head.  I mean, it's a lower chance of survival, for sure (Because you have, like a 95% chance of surviving being shot if you get medical attention), but still a chance!  And imagine the suffering of surviving a gun shot to the head!

[ijack]

I'm most sad that they knew she was dead at 8am and didn't come back for over 3 hours

[asdfjkl]

Dec 15, 2015 10:25:03 GMT -5 Velvetshady said:

Dec 15, 2015 10:03:24 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

It's murder in all cases because that is how our laws work. And I'd say it show work if there is no proof that the individual involved wanted to die.


 As for your questions about "why didn't they use a more sleuthy, strategically smart method?"  I'm going to go with (1) old; and (2) because it's actually hard to get enough drugs to kill yourself even as a terminally ill patient.  Particularly if your terminal illness is something like congestive heart failure, COPD Alzheimers, Parkinson's, or really anything other than than cancer. I haven't seen any evidence (in my 5 five Internet only research) this was a "they" or "her" decision vs a "he" decision, which is my whole issue here. I guess I would just hope if I were in her position and wanted this, one of us would be aware enough to, I don't know, put my hand on the gun and shoot the side of my head vs doing it in a way that there is no way for a believable case I was involved/okay with it. I might be ready to die, but I'd want to do what I could to protect my husband as he lived on.

Overall, some more details on what her actual condition was would be helpful here.

I completely agree that more details would be helpful here.  However, you cannot pay me to go down the road of "why weren't they smarter about how they did this?"  I mean, maybe at 91, Mr. Harvey (whose voice absolutely sounds like Clint Eastwood's) was like, "I really don't give a good goddamn if they arrest me.  I'm 91 fucking years old.  I have no family.  My wife is dying [dead].  Whether I die in this shitty nursing home or a minimum security prison makes no difference to me.  I don't have access to any narcotics and our shitty Texas-for-old-people insurance doesn't cover palliative care.  However, I do have this here gun, so that's what I'm using."  Who knows.  His method of accomplishing the killing is not very important to me.     

[imojoebunny]

My grandfather committed suicide at 86 years old, and dying. I am convinced my grandmother had some knowledge of his plan, but no one ever had the courage to ask her, and she was one of the most poised people I have ever encountered, so I don't think she would have said. He was a veterinarian and strongly believed in the right to die with dignity, having put thousands of animals to sleep in his life time. I respect his decision, and he did it in a really well thought out way, where no one could blame someone else for letting it happen. 20 officers showed up and combed the house, and talked to the people there at the time for many hours. It was hours before my mother was even allowed to call me.

I have no doubt, that had he been able to get to his vet office, he would have chosen a different method, but other than that, I respect his decision. In his case, he was drowning slowly with pulmonary failure, and would have been gone soon either way.

I can see where a person, married for 60+ years, would give in to the begging of their spouse to end it. Obviously, I have no way of knowing if that was the case here, or if it was something else, but I can see where someone might desire this end, over drowning slowly.

[wawa]

Dec 15, 2015 10:30:24 GMT -5 ijack said:

I'm most sad that they knew she was dead at 8am and didn't come back for over 3 hours

this is where I got stuck too.  Is that standard? 

*knock knock*
Morning Mr. Harvey, daily check in!
My wife is dead.
Oh, that's too bad.  Have a nice day! 
*makes checkmark on clipboard in the 'not ok' column and heads to the next door*


Like, that's REALLY how these things are handled?  That's fucked.

[aurora]

The whole thing makes me sad. I just finished Being Mortal (thanks, CEP!) and I agree that we're in a stage where we're really trying to figure out the whole end-of-life thing in the face of our new-ish medical technologies/understanding.