Maybe it wasn't clear. I didn't say every young woman struggles with self confidence, or that most of Sanders female supporters are faking it. When I said "most are supporting him" I meant, "most are saying they support him, will also vote for him, and do so enthusiastically." In that context, my point was that it would not surprise me is some, maybe even a lot (but probably not most), of the "support" is surface level only because we live in a culture in which at least some young women feel their voices drowned out and struggle to fit in. It's not like I'm imagining this phenomena where some girls start to feel more and more marginalized in their teen years.
There's a big difference between feeling marginalized and not having the ability to think for oneself, discern which of two candidates is most preferred and vote accordingly. No matter what shade of lipstick you put on this pig, it boils down to, "There, there, sweetie, I know you think you want Bernie for president, but you're just being led by your thirst for male approval." That's sexist as hell and it sucks. I would LOVE to have a woman in office and I'll be happy when Hillary wins, because I totally expect her to win, but she's not the woman I would have preferred if I had my druthers. I can't believe that women find it so hard to believe that there are other women who aren't enthusiastic for Hillary (or even just more enthusiastic for the male candidate) not because of who she is, but because of low confidence. If it wasn't actually really sad, I'd laugh.
Right, I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm saying is that there's a difference between thinking for themselves and speaking up. I imagine there are women who are thinking for themselves and have come to one conclusion privately, but find it easier to go with the crowd publicly due to sexism or whatever other external factors are out there. And I'm saying that thinking for yourself doesn't always translate into having the utmost confidence in your beliefs such that you don't second guess your decision repeatedly.
I really don't think I agree with the statement that women have more power when they're young. The only power really that young women wield is attractiveness, but aren't women summarily disregarded when they are young and attractive?
It's relative power. Young women and men with the same education and experience tend to get the same entry-level jobs and entry-level wages. Then comes several decades where the male counterpart is favored with promotions, raises, mentoring, opportunities, etc. Hopefully the woman will have more accomplishments, experience, etc compared to her younger self. But she's lost relative ground to the men in the office.
His more rabid followers just make our points for us in terms of how we see the Sanders' campaign as it relates to women and minorities. Â I don't like speaking for others, but I know that for myself, I have become more and more upset by Bernie's campaign because I feel that it's unrealistic, un-inclusive, and a threat to the Democratic Party. Â My view was helped by Bernie Bros, but not caused by it. Â Bernie and his 'Bros' Â are connected issues but not mutually exclusive of one another. Â I can dislike Bernie and dislike his Bros and each for their own reasons. Â
Thanks for your response. I feel exactly the opposite of this on every point.
As for the general, it's a long way off. Who knows. Right now I'm feeling really alienated and angry about Hillary. I realize the importance of the justices, so it's difficult.
I do wonder, how many here would vote for Bernie if he was the nominee?
I absolutely would. Most Hillary supporters I've heard have said the same.
Considering the nomination process is so long and contentious, and by the time it makes its way to Oregon, it's pretty much settled, I'm always tempted to check out of the early stuff. I don't because I'm a junkie.
To both of your points -- I think that's foolishness, too.
A lot of the women here have been turned off of Bernie, by none other than Bernie himself, and that's why we aren't voting for him.
His more rabid followers just make our points for us in terms of how we see the Sanders' campaign as it relates to women and minorities. I don't like speaking for others, but I know that for myself, I have become more and more upset by Bernie's campaign because I feel that it's unrealistic, un-inclusive, and a threat to the Democratic Party. My view was helped by Bernie Bros, but not caused by it. Bernie and his 'Bros' are connected issues but not mutually exclusive of one another. I can dislike Bernie and dislike his Bros and each for their own reasons.
Personally, if I believed in what Bernie was selling and I truly thought him to be the better candidate, then I would vote for him, regardless of what I thought of the Bernie Bros. I don't do that and I never will -- waffle because of popular opinion or because of the "reputation" of others within a group.
I am insulted by the comments that women who support Bernie do so because they aren't confident in themselves or to fit in. No one cares who I am voting for and if I didn't discuss it no one would be the wiser. I'm voting for Bernie because the world he describes is the one I want my children to grow up in.
Where did anyone say that every single woman who votes for Bernie does so to fit in?
His more rabid followers just make our points for us in terms of how we see the Sanders' campaign as it relates to women and minorities. I don't like speaking for others, but I know that for myself, I have become more and more upset by Bernie's campaign because I feel that it's unrealistic, un-inclusive, and a threat to the Democratic Party. My view was helped by Bernie Bros, but not caused by it. Bernie and his 'Bros' are connected issues but not mutually exclusive of one another. I can dislike Bernie and dislike his Bros and each for their own reasons.
Thanks for your response. I feel exactly the opposite of this on every point.
As for the general, it's a long way off. Who knows. Right now I'm feeling really alienated and angry about Hillary. I realize the importance of the justices, so it's difficult.
I do wonder, how many here would vote for Bernie if he was the nominee?
I don't know if I can do it. He doesn't know how the Supreme Court works, I have other doubts about his ability to appoint good judges, and he has demonstrated no interest in hiring advisors to teach him what he doesn't know. I will see who his VP pick is and if he changes course in the general. But I'm in a safe blue state, and he's going to lose in a landslide, so I may as well vote my heart.
I don't know if I can do it. He doesn't know how the Supreme Court works, I have other doubts about his ability to appoint good judges, and he has demonstrated no interest in hiring advisors to teach him what he doesn't know. I will see who his VP pick is and if he changes course in the general. But I'm in a safe blue state, and he's going to lose in a landslide, so I may as well vote my heart.
That's fair, and you're entitled to vote as you see fit. But I've seen so much criticism on this board of Bernie supporters that wouldn't vote for Hillary in the general. It seems disingenuous to me.
Dig Ophelia, thanks again for your reply. That makes sense, even if I'm coming at it from a different angle.
I've said all along I wouldn't vote for Bernie in the general, but I'm not a Democrat; I'm pretty moderate and none of Bernie's ideas appeal to me, nor do I think any of them are actually feasible. I also find as his campaign goes on that I find him and his rhetoric more repulsive than I thought I could. I probably disagree with HRC a lot too, but I think she's the most qualified for the job. I plan to vote for her or third party even if she is the nominee. It just depends.
The only thing I've changed since the primaries began is whether I will vote in the D or R primary. I planned to vote for the most moderate but now I can't even stomach that so I'm planning on voting for HRC in the D primary.
Anyway I've probably been one of the most negative about Bernie and his bros on this board, but he never had a shot at my vote anyhow.
His more rabid followers just make our points for us in terms of how we see the Sanders' campaign as it relates to women and minorities. I don't like speaking for others, but I know that for myself, I have become more and more upset by Bernie's campaign because I feel that it's unrealistic, un-inclusive, and a threat to the Democratic Party. My view was helped by Bernie Bros, but not caused by it. Bernie and his 'Bros' are connected issues but not mutually exclusive of one another. I can dislike Bernie and dislike his Bros and each for their own reasons.
Thanks for your response. I feel exactly the opposite of this on every point.
As for the general, it's a long way off. Who knows. Right now I'm feeling really alienated and angry about Hillary. I realize the importance of the justices, so it's difficult.
I do wonder, how many here would vote for Bernie if he was the nominee?
I will, because I do like the ideals he espouses. But I won't be excited about it because I firmly believe he will accomplish exactly zero of it.
Voting 3rd party or not voting isn't an option for me.
I really don't think I agree with the statement that women have more power when they're young. The only power really that young women wield is attractiveness, but aren't women summarily disregarded when they are young and attractive?
Well, I have seen statistics that middle aged and older women in heterosexual marriages tend to be more conservative, but that could be caused by a variety of reasons. (And perhaps is why I got mail from the Ted Cruz campaign recently. )
But in general, there are a lot of laws and policies in place to make things more equitable at a young age. You do well on a test, you get an A or a B. You don't have to worry that you got a B, but really deserved an A, whereas the boy next to you got an A he might not have deserved because of sexism. For at least my entire lifetime, women have been "allowed" to play in sports and receive funding for said activities, and NCAA scholarships as well (although I know asdfjkl has gone off about the unequal attention placed on the major men's sports of football and basketball at powerhouse sports schools). There's a lot less subtle negotiating and self-realization about the ways of the world, IMO. At least, that was my experience as a marginally-bright student who went to an all-girls high school, followed by a private, 4-year college. Now, in my 30s, I often stop and think of mistakes I've made in my career, which I have discovered retroactively (usually not making the career jumps and strides and negotiation that could have brought me further by now), and which might have something to do with my sex and expectations as well.
I don't know if I can do it. He doesn't know how the Supreme Court works, I have other doubts about his ability to appoint good judges, and he has demonstrated no interest in hiring advisors to teach him what he doesn't know. I will see who his VP pick is and if he changes course in the general. But I'm in a safe blue state, and he's going to lose in a landslide, so I may as well vote my heart.
I'm not really Bernie fangirl #1, and he lost me with his reparations statement, but I am actually curious about this. What specifically makes you think he doesn't understand the Supreme Court, and won't nominate good judges? Also, didn't he hire good advisors to redo his platform on Black Lives Matter?
2. His vote to immunize gun manufacturers and sellers from state tort liability and his defense of aspects of that vote reflect a horrifyingly poor understanding of both tort law and federalism. And he continues to double down on his uninformed defense of his position. So not only does he not understand critical legal concepts of utmost importance to me, but he hasn't bothered yet to get anyone to explain them to him.
3. He's gotten a little better on racial issues, but I still wouldn't say he's done a great job staffing and listening to advisors to hone his message.
4. I have seen no evidence that he's capable of even using advisors on his favorite issues. When you listen to him talk about Wall Street, he just repeats a couple talking points. He has never addressed Clinton and Paul Krugman's points about the shadow banks, or tried to connect the dots between Glass-Steagal and the financial crisis. The bill he introduced recently to end "too big to fail" is childish, it's four pages long, overly simplistic, and reveals that he has no idea what the real problems are, how the existing regulatory scheme works, or what the risks are to ordinary Americans' savings and pensions, to say nothing of the impact this will have on the global economy. If you compare his website's section on Wall Street to Clinton's, his is embarrassingly flimsy and short on specifics. If he can't be bothered to approach his most important issues with any seriousness, how on earth am I to believe he's going to approach anything with the seriousness and care it deserves?
SCOTUS is the tip of the iceberg. I truly believe he is utterly incompetent. I'd be willing to overlook incompetence for the sake of SCOTUS, but in this instance it would be futile. I think in many ways, GWB was in way over his head, but to his credit he knew how to surround himself with very smart, capable people. For all his blunders, his ability to listen to his advisors resulted in him being able to give the right the greatest gifts they could have ever asked for, Roberts and Alito. So far, I see no evidence from Bernie that he could deliver even that for the left.
I can't remember if it was the Steinem interview or later in the show, but I think someone on Bill Maher also pointed out that, when discussing Bernie's plan, which would raise taxes but provide free college and health care, well, duh, college students tend to be more concerned about free college. They don't know what kind of job they'll have or how much they'll be paying in taxes. Frankly, whatever level taxes are at when they graduate is what they'll get used to right quick. That's not to say that all college-aged Bernie supporters are single-minded and incapable of considering complex issues or things that don't affect them personally. But free college and free healthcare are pretty big, sweeping issues that would affect many people for the better.
Also, I would vote for Bernie, because I agree with many of his platform points, regardless of the fact that I don't think he could feasibly accomplish much. Re: not voting for Bernie because of Berners, I'm kind of in that camp. But it's because I've seen so many ridiculous statements like, "Bernie is SO much better on women's rights than Hillary!" that it's really forced me to research HRC's accomplishments and positions more, and in becoming better informed, I'm more excited about her candidacy. So thanks, Bernie Bros, for pushing me towards one candidate. However, reasonable minds can disagree, and I wouldn't be against a President Sanders or anything.
I really don't think I agree with the statement that women have more power when they're young. The only power really that young women wield is attractiveness, but aren't women summarily disregarded when they are young and attractive?
Have there been countless other statements by Clinton supporters in the past year saying that young women voters are just following the boys for Bernie? Because if not, I'm having a hard time getting it up over Steinem saying this when all I've heard for the past year-ish is that I'm only voting for Clinton because we're both women.
I really don't think I agree with the statement that women have more power when they're young. The only power really that young women wield is attractiveness, but aren't women summarily disregarded when they are young and attractive?
There is no one more summarily disregarded in our society than a 50+ unattractive woman.
Post by tacosforlife on Feb 7, 2016 13:54:44 GMT -5
I just watched the first part of the interview. I didn't exactly love that statement, but I hate Bill Maher so much that I can't bring myself to be mad at GS.
I really don't think I agree with the statement that women have more power when they're young. The only power really that young women wield is attractiveness, but aren't women summarily disregarded when they are young and attractive?
There is no one more summarily disregarded in our society than a 50+ unattractive woman.
So much this.
To me, Hillary is the most competent of anyone running right now. I actually firmly and wholeheartedly believe she is the only one among the big nominees that is capable of running the country, which is why unless someone else and I can't imagine who, magically enters the race, that's who I will vote for, even over voting third party, which is what I did the last two elections.
I think Hillary's "problem" with young women voters by comparison to Bernie two fold.
One, I don't think most young women agree that sexism is that bad anymore or nearly so big of a problem. I actually think asdfjkl has that much correct. When you're 24 and a recent graduate and get hired by a company that seems really into you, then what's this sexism thing, man? They have Tinder, more sex than we ever did, their own apartments, and everyone knows a girl doesn't have to get married and have babies right now the way they used to. They have less experience with the world around them. To them, income inequality is totes a problem, guys. They don't see the glass ceiling because they haven't hit it. I mean that's is why they call it the glass ceiling after all.
Secondly, they've grown up in an era where Hillary Clinton is a dirty word, in fact, mostly because of the very sexism they don't realize exists.
I can't remember if it was the Steinem interview or later in the show, but I think someone on Bill Maher also pointed out that, when discussing Bernie's plan, which would raise taxes but provide free college and health care, well, duh, college students tend to be more concerned about free college. They don't know what kind of job they'll have or how much they'll be paying in taxes. Frankly, whatever level taxes are at when they graduate is what they'll get used to right quick. That's not to say that all college-aged Bernie supporters are single-minded and incapable of considering complex issues or things that don't affect them personally. But free college and free healthcare are pretty big, sweeping issues that would affect many people for the better.
Also, I would vote for Bernie, because I agree with many of his platform points, regardless of the fact that I don't think he could feasibly accomplish much. Re: not voting for Bernie because of Berners, I'm kind of in that camp. But it's because I've seen so many ridiculous statements like, "Bernie is SO much better on women's rights than Hillary!" that it's really forced me to research HRC's accomplishments and positions more, and in becoming better informed, I'm more excited about her candidacy. So thanks, Bernie Bros, for pushing me towards one candidate. However, reasonable minds can disagree, and I wouldn't be against a President Sanders or anything.
I wonder if those young college aged supporters are thinking they could afford more taxes if they weren't paying so damned much in student loan payments
There is no one more summarily disregarded in our society than a 50+ unattractive woman.
So much this.
To me, Hillary is the most competent of anyone running right now. I actually firmly and wholeheartedly believe she is the only one among the big nominees that is capable of running the country, which is why unless someone else and I can't imagine who, magically enters the race, that's who I will vote for, even over voting third party, which is what I did the last two elections.
I think Hillary's "problem" with young women voters by comparison to Bernie two fold.
One, I don't think most young women agree that sexism is that bad anymore or nearly so big of a problem. I actually think asdfjkl has that much correct. When you're 24 and a recent graduate and get hired by a company that seems really into you, then what's this sexism thing, man? They have Tinder, more sex than we ever did, their own apartments, and everyone knows a girl doesn't have to get married and have babies right now the way they used to. They have less experience with the world around them. To them, income inequality is totes a problem, guys. They don't see the glass ceiling because they haven't hit it. I mean that's is why they call it the glass ceiling after all.
Secondly, they've grown up in an era where Hillary Clinton is a dirty word, in fact, mostly because of the very sexism they don't realize exists.
I completely agree.
I think many young women, especially young attractive women, have yet to encounter the nasty side of sexism. Mostly what they've seen is the soft, benevolent side of it, and mostly the things that benefit them (why be offended by the constant use of young, sexy women to sell web domains when you're young and sexy yourself? Why do we need feminism when I can already do whatever I want plus men buy me drinks and hold doors for me?). They haven't yet been told they're "abrasive". Their commitment to their jobs hasn't yet been questioned when they make the grievous error of asking about maternity leave policies. They haven't yet been passed over once, twice, five times for that promotion, watching men their own age advance at twice the rate they do. They haven't yet been told that at 35, they're "past their prime" and that really, once a woman can't reproduce, it's just science that men are biased to ignore her.
Some perspectives are hard to come by without the benefit of some age and/or life experience.
"Secondly, they've grown up in an era where Hillary Clinton is a dirty word, in fact, mostly because of the very sexism they don't realize exists."
So. Much. This.
I do not understand a world where Bernie Sanders who has been in politics for fucking ever (doing next to nothing I might add) gets to call himself an outsider with a straight face and call Hillary the Establishment and not have it be mocked roundly day in and day out but every last politico.
"Secondly, they've grown up in an era where Hillary Clinton is a dirty word, in fact, mostly because of the very sexism they don't realize exists."
So. Much. This.
This is so true. I grew up with this as a dirty word and I was that girl who didn't see a lot of sexism in the world. I'm older, wiser and more cynical now. There will never be a female candidate who is perfect, but HRC is incredibly qualified and she has the experience to push through the sexism she is facing and will face.
There is no one more summarily disregarded in our society than a 50+ unattractive woman.
So much this.
To me, Hillary is the most competent of anyone running right now. I actually firmly and wholeheartedly believe she is the only one among the big nominees that is capable of running the country, which is why unless someone else and I can't imagine who, magically enters the race, that's who I will vote for, even over voting third party, which is what I did the last two elections.
I think Hillary's "problem" with young women voters by comparison to Bernie two fold.
One, I don't think most young women agree that sexism is that bad anymore or nearly so big of a problem. I actually think asdfjkl has that much correct. When you're 24 and a recent graduate and get hired by a company that seems really into you, then what's this sexism thing, man? They have Tinder, more sex than we ever did, their own apartments, and everyone knows a girl doesn't have to get married and have babies right now the way they used to. They have less experience with the world around them. To them, income inequality is totes a problem, guys. They don't see the glass ceiling because they haven't hit it. I mean that's is why they call it the glass ceiling after all.
Secondly, they've grown up in an era where Hillary Clinton is a dirty word, in fact, mostly because of the very sexism they don't realize exists.
As I said Friday, I think the reason why so many women over 30 support Clinton is because they've actually experienced the sexism of being the most accomplished person in the room, only to have a man take credit.
Relating this back to Steinem, my mom is actually reading My Life on the Road right now (it's on my to-read list). According to her, one of the things that Steinem says in the book is that Hillary Clinton is almost always the most informed person in the room. I think that's obvious when she's up against Bernie in debates or when you compare her to Marco Automotron Rubio. She's HAD to be the most informed person in the room to get where she is. And women over 30 get that in a way that I think younger women may not yet fully understand.