Ann Romney Acknowledges, Embraces Sexism

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2012 21:16:49 GMT -5 smock said:

This conversation reminds me of that political quote about the "soft bigotry of lowered expectations." That's what I think we're doing when we say, "oh, men just aren't as good at raising kids or tending the home." It's not good for men or women.

I've never heard this quote, but I think that's excellent. I often say that people will generally meet the expectations you set for them.

And I completely see how it happens. H and I have pretty much had gender role reversal this summer, as I've been working a ton and he's been taking care of the house while I'm on break. It's amazing how little I sometimes find myself getting away with because I know that he doesn't mind taking on more around the house since I'm always working.

[oukapu]

I think women allow themselves to do more. My husband dresses our daughter every morning, gets her snacks if I am not ready yet, makes her bottles, cleans her bottle, does an equal amount of housework, etc. When I went on a business trip, he did it all on his own and taught me a few things about how to juggle it when he has to go to work early,

[eclaires]

The whole women are better at this shit naturally offends me on behalf of my husband and my son.

I also hate statements like, "boys will be boys."

I didn't mind Ann Romney's speech though. It was fine for what it was. But I'm pre-biased against candidates' wives and speeches. I think they're kind of hokey. Unless they are Cindy McCain, because she is my fembot hero.

[josieposy]

Purely anecdotal of course, but my DH is often a better "housewife" than I am. He works, freelances on the side, does the dishes and laundry more than I do, and is just as involved with the kids as I am (sometimes more). I work, attend full time classes, and tend to the kids. We are very much equal partners in our household, and I would expect nothing less. It could be argued that twins may have skewed things a bit and required two very involved parents, but I honestly believe in our case that it didn't. That's just the man I married. I agree that saying women are just better at multitasking gives men an easy out.

As for spatial intelligence, well anyone whose ever seen him drive or park a car would argue differently.

[aw]

I apologize if I offended anyone.

[heightsyankee]

AW- I see what you're saying. You're reasoning is clear. I don't like it, think it's a huge problem and disagree but I see it and am not offended by it.

[ttt]

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not offended. I understand you just have a different belief/opinion. But I do disagree, for the reasons I listed.

[EllieArroway]

I am a SAHM because it makes more sense for our family, but I can't lie: DH would be so much better at this job than me. He is miles ahead of me when it comes to running a household and he is amazing with our son.

I think it's mostly nurture. My MIL is amazing and she expected the same things from her sons as her daughters, so my husband grew up doing it all. My mom let me be the lazy slob that I naturally am. So now DH can cook and clean and take care of the yard and I'm that person who doesnt think to do laundry until I'm out of clean clothes. It has been a huge adjustment for me learning how to run a household. So IME it has a lot more to do with how we were raised than any innate abilities that we have.

[copzgirl1171]

There is a huge difference between being capable of doing something and being instinctually better at doing something. I will have to bow out of this thread because I got taken out behind the woodshed for my views on this a long time ago and my ass still smarts from it.

I do however refuse to turn in my feminist card

[eclaires]

Don't apologize, AW. I wasn't saying that because I want you to apologize to me. Mostly because it's my pet peeve. It's just a thing I have that bugs me. It goes along with a few other things that immediately make me all UGH... like moms of a little boy and a little girl, with the girl dressed to the nines and the boy in dirty clothes. Or the people on my kids' clothing boards who refuse to spend money on their boys' clothes (because they don't care what they wear and will just destroy it) but spend $100+ per dress on multiple dresses for their daughters.

ETA: Also, I'm overly emotional tonight about Jackson because of school starting this week, so everyone should probably ignore anything I say that might be related to him/boy children/etc.

[aw]

Maybe you guys are right and it's just the men in my life. My father was very traditional and not very nurturing at all. My DH was raised by his father - just the two of them for most of his formative years, so he just got used to being around men and doing things around the house in a way that just isn't very domestic or efficient.

I am breaking the cycle with my sons. They will be expected to do their share around the house. They help me cook and clean all the time. We even bought the boys things like play kitchens, vacuums, and things like that on purpose.

But I still recognize the differences in them. And to be honest, I like the differences in them. I like what makes men "men" and what makes women "women". That's probably just a result of my faith though.

[emilyj]

aw, I'm not offended by your stance. I don't agree with it at all, but I'm not offended.

When I said I was insulted, I meant I was insulted at Ann Romney using expressions like 'being paid in martyrdom' and the other crap she said. Because that, to me, is insulting.

[heightsyankee]

Aug 29, 2012 21:40:45 GMT -5 aw said:

Maybe you guys are right and it's just the men in my life. My father was very traditional and not very nurturing at all. My DH was raised by his father - just the two of them for most of his formative years, so he just got used to being around men and doing things around the house in a way that just isn't very domestic or efficient.

I am breaking the cycle with my sons. They will be expected to do their share around the house. They help me cook and clean all the time. We even bought the boys things like play kitchens, vacuums, and things like that on purpose.

But I still recognize the differences in them. And to be honest, I like the differences in them. I like what makes men "men" and what makes women "women". That's probably just a result of my faith though.

This is great. Good for you. This will make life so much better for your future DILs. And they'll thank you for it the way I think my MIL. Now isn't that nice

And my boys are hardcore boys. I love it. With 2 of them and no more pending, I see myself as that "boy mom" and love the dirt, grime, rough housing et al... that comes predominantly stereo-typically with boys. I don't think anyone would suggest we ignore the differences between men and women. I think what myself and others are saying is that we shouldn't insult men or give them the easy way out because we think they're not built for women's work.

eclaires- I'm with ya on the clothes thing. That chaps my ass.

[eclaires]

There are definitely very natural differences in boys and girls. I notice it too.

Scarlett basically has very few toys that are her own that aren't hand me downs from Jackson. Some are more boyish, some are gender neutral and some lean more feminine. She gravitates toward the girlier toys and ignores the very boyish ones for the most part - but will play with trains/cars and stuff here and there. Usually only if Jackson has them out, though. Sometimes I'm not sure what is birth order related, too, though. Like her independence and the way she gravitates towards insisting on helping me with things that Jackson would have ignored or didn't care about.

I don't disagree that there are natural differences between boys/girls. I just don't agree that those differences make them more innately suited for certain domestic tasks.

[charminglife]

Aug 29, 2012 20:57:18 GMT -5 aw said:

I just think that men and women have strengths and weaknesses. The reason most working mothers end up having to do more of the work at home is because we are better at it. We can do it all, but I don't think it's as easy for men to do it all.

Don't women take anti-anxiety medication at a significantly higher rate than men? I know it's not a direct correlation but it does make me think that women *aren't* better at doing it all but have to figure out ways to cope with it.

ETA - Google tells me anti-anxiety meds are used by women at almost 2x the rate of men.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/women-and-prescription-drug-use_n_1098023.html

[eclaires]

HY, it seriously makes me rage-y. I have to take breaks from the kids clothing boards I frequent when I see the whole "oh I wouldn't spend that much on a t-shirt for my son! he wouldn't care if I spent $5 or $15." And then they go and spend 10x that on a dress for their daughter. GAG ME. I doubt your daughter cares if her dress is $15 or $150.

[heightsyankee]

Aug 29, 2012 21:50:52 GMT -5 eclaires said:

HY, it seriously makes me rage-y. I have to take breaks from the kids clothing boards I frequent when I see the whole "oh I wouldn't spend that much on a t-shirt for my son! he wouldn't care if I spent $5 or $15." And then they go and spend 10x that on a dress for their daughter. GAG ME. I doubt your daughter cares if her dress is $15 or $150.

I actually tend to buy my nieces cheaper stuff because I can find really cute dresses at Target in abundance and the boy stuff will be very limited and/or suck. I hate to be so... I dunno... materialistic about it but I like my boys to look nice and they're so freaking cute.

... and then there's the "you just couldn't understand. Girls are so much more expensive than boys." A) that was your choice, and B) if you wanted to make it a contest, I could dress up some little Diddy style boys and play that game.

[eclaires]

Aug 29, 2012 21:54:15 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Aug 29, 2012 21:50:52 GMT -5 eclaires said:

HY, it seriously makes me rage-y. I have to take breaks from the kids clothing boards I frequent when I see the whole "oh I wouldn't spend that much on a t-shirt for my son! he wouldn't care if I spent $5 or $15." And then they go and spend 10x that on a dress for their daughter. GAG ME. I doubt your daughter cares if her dress is $15 or $150.

I actually tend to buy my nieces cheaper stuff because I can find really cute dresses at Target in abundance and the boy stuff will be very limited and/or suck. I hate to be so... I dunno... materialistic about it but I like my boys to look nice and they're so freaking cute.

... and then there's the "you just couldn't understand. Girls are so much more expensive than boys." A) that was your choice, and B) if you wanted to make it a contest, I could dress up some little Diddy style boys and play that game.

OMG. YES.

Everyone was like, "oh now you'll spend so much money!!!" because of Scarlett. I was like, "or I'll find cute shit at Target... or finding boys' stuff is more pricey because there aren't as many options."

And granted, I do spend on her, but it's because I enjoy it. It is pretty equal, though. If it isn't equal each month, it averages out to equal over the year depending on who needs new stuff and when.

I've fallen into the trap of buying Jackson stuff he likes though - I stick to cute JF-esque/vintage-y type t-shirts of things he's into, but I swear I cringe when he wants to wear those with gym shorts. I feel like I'm becoming what I hate, lol, but it makes him happy and it is clean/stain free. So I allow it unless we have something specific going on.

[heightsyankee]

My younger son loves athletic shorts. He calls them his "yoga shorts." Ha! They're supposed to be for around the house, but he wants to wear them all the time now. Sigh.

and THREAD HIJACK COMPLETE!

[eclaires]

I know...I can't resist a good discussion of my pet peeves and boys' clothing.

[aw]

Aug 29, 2012 21:48:20 GMT -5 charminglife said:

Aug 29, 2012 20:57:18 GMT -5 aw said:

I just think that men and women have strengths and weaknesses. The reason most working mothers end up having to do more of the work at home is because we are better at it. We can do it all, but I don't think it's as easy for men to do it all.

Don't women take anti-anxiety medication at a significantly higher rate than men? I know it's not a direct correlation but it does make me think that women *aren't* better at doing it all but have to figure out ways to cope with it.

ETA - Google tells me anti-anxiety meds are used by women at almost 2x the rate of men.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/women-and-prescription-drug-use_n_1098023.html

Do you think the anxiety problem is related to the amount of work a woman is expected to do in our society or other things, like the pressure to look a certain way? Or both? I've always thought women have more anxiety because of all of the unnecessary stuff we have to worry about with keeping up our appearances and being judged by them.

[rugbywife]

My problem with associating certain tasks/interest/abilities with women vs. men is because of what happens when someone doesn't fit that stereotype. Why should it be 'different' for a man to be the predominant cook? Why should a woman be better at doing laundry? Why can't a father want to stay at home with his children, rather than the mom? I think we (society, and individuals) impose our beliefs of appropriate gender roles on our children in order to justify our own lives. It's sad.


As for anti-anxiety meds...I think women and men feel the brunt of 'keeping up with the Jones' equally but deal with it in different ways, and I think in the end women end up anxious and that leads to medication.

[aw]

Aug 29, 2012 22:25:08 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

As for anti-anxiety meds...I think women and men feel the brunt of 'keeping up with the Jones' equally but deal with it in different ways, and I think in the end women end up anxious and that leads to medication.

But why would we deal with it differently unless there are some innate differences

I think you're right though. I think women internalize stress and it leads to more anxiety.

[emmybean]

Aug 29, 2012 22:05:52 GMT -5 aw said:

Aug 29, 2012 21:48:20 GMT -5 charminglife said:

Don't women take anti-anxiety medication at a significantly higher rate than men? I know it's not a direct correlation but it does make me think that women *aren't* better at doing it all but have to figure out ways to cope with it.

ETA - Google tells me anti-anxiety meds are used by women at almost 2x the rate of men.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/women-and-prescription-drug-use_n_1098023.html

Do you think the anxiety problem is related to the amount of work a woman is expected to do in our society or other things, like the pressure to look a certain way? Or both? I've always thought women have more anxiety because of all of the unnecessary stuff we have to worry about with keeping up our appearances and being judged by them.

My opinion is that many times, women are on anti anxiety meds because they feel that have to be "it all" rather than accepting that that isnt possible for anyone. It's not related to only appearance or career or motherhood, but the fact that women have somehow got it in their heads that they have to be the best! At! Everything! All! the! Time!

[rugbywife]

Aug 29, 2012 22:27:45 GMT -5 aw said:

Aug 29, 2012 22:25:08 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

As for anti-anxiety meds...I think women and men feel the brunt of 'keeping up with the Jones' equally but deal with it in different ways, and I think in the end women end up anxious and that leads to medication.

But why would we deal with it differently unless there are some innate differences

I think you're right though. I think women internalize stress and it leads to more anxiety.

I think that we deal with it differently because society has made us believe that there are appropriate ways for men to deal with stress and appropriate ways for women to deal with stress. Men go on hunting trips and drink a 24 of beer. Women shop, end up spending too much on their credit cards and end up more stressed. Clearly these are ridiculous examples but you know what I mean. I don't think as many men access anti-anxiety meds because it isn't seen as 'strong'. Of course, I have no evidence to back this up with, I could be very wrong.

[ttt]

Aug 29, 2012 22:27:45 GMT -5 aw said:

Aug 29, 2012 22:25:08 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

As for anti-anxiety meds...I think women and men feel the brunt of 'keeping up with the Jones' equally but deal with it in different ways, and I think in the end women end up anxious and that leads to medication.

But why would we deal with it differently unless there are some innate differences

I think you're right though. I think women internalize stress and it leads to more anxiety.

Because it's more socially acceptable to deal with stress in certain ways depending on whether you're a man or a woman. It's certainly not socially acceptable for a man to break down into tears because of stress at home or work, but it's OK to do that if you're a woman. It's OK for men not to worry or stress about how the kids are doing or whether xyz is safe for the children, but if you as a woman don't stress enough about your kids, you don't care about them.

I think a certain level of anxiety is actually expected for women. If you're not anxious, you're not doing enough.

[llama]

Aug 29, 2012 21:48:18 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I don't disagree that there are natural differences between boys/girls. I just don't agree that those differences make them more innately suited for certain domestic tasks.

I came in to say exactly this but couldn't say it any better than eclaires did. I also find the woman martyr thing incredibly annoying from people who push to keep the status quo (read: Ann Romney.) The pressure women face to do everything and look perfect while doing it (to your question about the anti-anxiety meds, AW, I think it's a combination of both things) is not a badge of honor. It is an inequality and instead of patting ourselves on the back we should demand an end to the assumption that men are incapable of half of the tasks required of daily living and expect a hand with things.

[emmybean]

Aug 29, 2012 22:33:09 GMT -5 ttt said:

Aug 29, 2012 22:27:45 GMT -5 aw said:

But why would we deal with it differently unless there are some innate differences

I think you're right though. I think women internalize stress and it leads to more anxiety.

Because it's more socially acceptable to deal with stress in certain ways depending on whether you're a man or a woman. It's certainly not socially acceptable for a man to break down into tears because of stress at home or work, but it's OK to do that if you're a woman. It's OK for men not to worry or stress about how the kids are doing or whether xyz is safe for the children, but if you as a woman don't stress enough about your kids, you don't care about them.

I think a certain level of anxiety is actually expected for women. If you're not anxious, you're not doing enough.

What? So women need anxiety meds because it is more socially acceptable for them to process their emotions? And that leads them to have more anxiety? I don't understand this POV.

[pt716]

What is the benefit of having these stereotypes?

[rugbywife]

Also, I think when it comes to being a mother, women are brutal bitches to one another. The amount of bashing that takes place between/among women stuns me (omg, you didn't breast feed? omg, you breast fed for how long? Omg, you don't use cloth diapers? Omg, how gross are cloth diapers!? omg, you send your child to public school? Oh, she homeschools? Did you hear that she stays at home, must be so easy! I can't believe she works and has kids, that's just wrong! I heard she sleeps with her kid, who does that? I can't believe she lets her child just sit there and cry!)

Seriously, men don't do that. They just go out any buy cars with bigger engines.