Also, I think when it comes to being a mother, women are brutal bitches to one another. The amount of bashing that takes place between/among women stuns me (omg, you didn't breast feed? omg, you breast fed for how long? Omg, you don't use cloth diapers? Omg, how gross are cloth diapers!? omg, you send your child to public school? Oh, she homeschools? Did you hear that she stays at home, must be so easy! I can't believe she works and has kids, that's just wrong! I heard she sleeps with her kid, who does that? I can't believe she lets her child just sit there and cry!)
Seriously, men don't do that. They just go out any buy cars with bigger engines.
I think this is because men are virtually never judged on how their kids turn out. Whenever a child is bad, or a kid ends up becoming a criminal or something, there's always talk about what the mother did or is doing wrong. Never the father. Look how many psychological problems used to be blamed on the mother's behavior - even autism used to be called 'refrigerator mother syndrome'.
If men were judged harshly on how their children behaved, you'd have a lot more of this crap from them, IMO.
My husband does plenty of housekeeping...I am lucky in that arena. I cook, but I do it because I love it, not because I have to. If I don't feel like cooking he makes us grilled cheese and tomato soup, or we go out!
Where can I get one of these housekeeping husbands?!
My H was raised by a single mom. He said when he became a latchkey kid around 8 or 9, he would come home to a list of chores. It stuck with him. He actually gets pissed at me if I do his laundry.
aw, serious but slightly off topic question if you don't mind. You say you are going to raise your boys having them help with cooking and cleaning and such (which I think is awesome). How many other families do you hang around that are like you, that may be raising their boys and girls in the more "traditional" ways? How do you plan to combat the exposure your boys may have to their friends who don't have to cook/clean/do that "women's work"?
I know you're pretty traditional in your role in the house, so I'm assuming you hang out with similar people? I may be wrong though, and if I am I apologize for jumping to that conclusion. I'm just curious how you would handle bucking the norm, in that sense.
aw, serious but slightly off topic question if you don't mind. You say you are going to raise your boys having them help with cooking and cleaning and such (which I think is awesome). How many other families do you hang around that are like you, that may be raising their boys and girls in the more "traditional" ways? How do you plan to combat the exposure your boys may have to their friends who don't have to cook/clean/do that "women's work"?
I know you're pretty traditional in your role in the house, so I'm assuming you hang out with similar people? I may be wrong though, and if I am I apologize for jumping to that conclusion. I'm just curious how you would handle bucking the norm, in that sense.
I think you'd be surprised by the type of families we hang out with. Most of our friends are not at all like us. Most are Christians, but I would describe them as mainstream. There are very few SAHMs in our circle and they don't homeschool and do the other things that we do.
But I think this will change as we get older. I already see it happening. As our friends have started to enroll their kids in public school and a lot of activities, they are getting busier and making a lot of new friends within their school groups. The same will b e true for us as we get into homeschooling more. This year I didn't join the local homeschooling association, but will next year. And most of the families around us that do choose to homeschool do it for religious reasons.
So, how do I plan to combat the exposure? Through our faith and living it out. DH and I have very strict roles within our marriage and family, but that has more to do with what makes us specifically tick. We do feel that our faith tells us that men and women should be primarily responsible for certain parts of family life, but we also know that God asks us to serve one another. So if my husband sees me struggling he is supposed to serve me in any way possible and vice versa (which is why I work - you would think that people like us wouldn't have a working wife).
I also think that my children are going to have role models in their lives that don't fit the traditional gender roles. My MIL is a lesbian. To be honest, her lifestyle bothered DH growing up because he wanted the storybook mother - the one who was home after school taking care of him (which I think is why he sought out a wife who wanted to be more traditional). She just wasn't that type, but was brilliant with her career, getting a PhD after she had her children. She isn't feminine in the traditional sense of the world. But I think my children, my daughters especially, will benefit from her presence in their lives.
Ultimately, I think it all breaks down to respect. That's my job above all, is to raise children that will respect their future spouse. If they have it, my sons will be willing to recognize when their wives are overworked and need help and my daughters will be willing to get a job to help their overworked husband so that he can spend more time with his family.
While I didn't enjoy Ann Romney's speech and didn't agree with everything she said, I did agree with what she said about mother's being what hold the country together.
I've embraced sexism on this board before and been flamed for it. I don't see anything wrong with stating the truth. It's just the way it is and life isn't fair.
And see all I read in that was blah blah mum's. What so only mothers are hard working? Only mothers make a difference and contribution in society? She's not talking about being a woman, she's talking about being a mother.
While I didn't enjoy Ann Romney's speech and didn't agree with everything she said, I did agree with what she said about mother's being what hold the country together.
I've embraced sexism on this board before and been flamed for it. I don't see anything wrong with stating the truth. It's just the way it is and life isn't fair.
And see all I read in that was blah blah mum's. What so only mothers are hard working? Only mothers make a difference and contribution in society? She's not talking about being a woman, she's talking about being a mother.
I don't think she ever said that only mothers are hardworking or contribute to society. And like I said, I didn't enjoy her speech. But I kind of agree with the point, which is that mothers have the most important role in our society - raising the next generation of citizens. We hold the future in our hands. And in a society in which single mothers make up a large percentage of mothers, women are often doing it all alone. And even in marriages with two partners, whether right or wrong, women end up doing the majority of the important child-rearing and decision-making with their kids. This doesn't mean men don't contribute to the family at all, just that it seems like women share a larger burden in our society. I think Ann Romney is embracing that like it's an honor. We do it because we are capable and we should be proud of that. That doesn't mean we can't still try to make our husbands or partners rise up and help out more or that there aren't exceptions to the rule, but that there is this reality right now that we can't deny.
W/r/t Ann Romney... what the hell else is she going to talk about?
And I don't mean that in a negative way. Her job for most of her life has been being a mother. It's how she is trying to make a connection to voters on her husband's behalf. It's something she has lived and had in common with a huge section of society. Her perception and views won't connect with everyone - maybe even no one - but there is really not much else she could give a speech about trying to show people she's not all that different despite her privileged life.
Of course she talked about being a mom and in a positive way. She's highlighting what she's done in her life and the positives of it. She thinks what she did is important, and is trying to get others to identify with her and what she is saying to encourage them to vote for her husband. IDK if it will work (my guess is not that much), but I didn't really expect anything else.
Also, I think when it comes to being a mother, women are brutal bitches to one another. The amount of bashing that takes place between/among women stuns me (omg, you didn't breast feed? omg, you breast fed for how long? Omg, you don't use cloth diapers? Omg, how gross are cloth diapers!? omg, you send your child to public school? Oh, she homeschools? Did you hear that she stays at home, must be so easy! I can't believe she works and has kids, that's just wrong! I heard she sleeps with her kid, who does that? I can't believe she lets her child just sit there and cry!)
Seriously, men don't do that. They just go out any buy cars with bigger engines.
See, I posted about this on MM's UO the other day. I think women keep doing it becuase women get all up in arms and upset and hurt and declare "no more mommy wars!" and "don't judge me!" My husband has people that come up to him and say the same things that you mention above. The difference? He just listens nicely and in his head says "whatever, I don't care what you think" and moves about his business. And then never gives it a second thought.
I think the issues with the mommy wars is that women get upset about it all instead of gaining confidence to be sure of there decisions and just say "F that noise" "I do what I want, and I am happy"
There was a post a while back about new fathers today NOT being able to lean on their fathers with baby-rearing, simply because their fathers didn't do any of it in their day. Like, literally, didn't change a single diaper, weren't in the delivery room, didn't play with small children, etc. I find it simply naive for us to discount the social issues surrounding these issues and leaning on biology before we even know how far and deep it goes. I mean I remember my dad playing with us, but obviously I'm not going to remember the intricacies of daily life as a baby and toddler and which parent did what - so how I am I supposed to know what my dad did or didn't do until we have that detailed conversation?
It was so simple for families to establish and grow 30+ years ago. Men had good paying jobs, women could stay home with as many kids as they wanted. Women eventually got jobs when the kids were going to school. Now, with 2 parents working, its a daycare payment for each kid (which is $800-$900 per kid for me), and an exhausting schedule of a FT job plus cooking/cleaning/chores each day. Its very hard for women in their 60s to understand why I/we find life as new parents so hard until I do a break down comparison of our lives for them. Even so, a good amount of them (that I've talked to) are divorced or otherwise changed in their relationships, because when they DID go back to work when the kids were older, their DHs still weren't doing the laundry or dishes or cooking or kid watching, bathing, clothes changing, etc.
Truly, the answer to a lot of families staying together and being happy in the long run (IMO) is to ask more from our men.
FWIW, I'm not offended by anything aw is saying here either.
I don't doubt that there are innate differences between men and women but I don't believe hard work or multi-tasking is one of them. I think we've established stereotypical identities based on gender alone that it's difficult for people to see that, actually, John Doe isn't good at multi-tasking not because he's a man, but because he's John Doe and that's just how he is. Or that Jane Doe isn't good at house repair work because she's never learned how to do it, not because she's a woman and can't do it (though the fact that she can't do the work is likely related to the fact that she wasn't expected to learn it thanks to gender stereotypes).
Don't women take anti-anxiety medication at a significantly higher rate than men? I know it's not a direct correlation but it does make me think that women *aren't* better at doing it all but have to figure out ways to cope with it.
Do you think the anxiety problem is related to the amount of work a woman is expected to do in our society or other things, like the pressure to look a certain way? Or both? I've always thought women have more anxiety because of all of the unnecessary stuff we have to worry about with keeping up our appearances and being judged by them.
I think both of these things (expectations to do it all AND the expectations to look/act a certain way) contribute to anxiety in women, as well as a number of other factors. However, I don't think Ann Romney should be reinforcing the expectation that women are the ones who *should* be doing it all, with commentary like "we don't want it easy" - I think a lot of us do.
Aw would you let your boys wear pink or paint their nails?
Pink - Yes. DH has a pink shirt and I think it looks really sexy on him.
Painting nails - No. But I wouldn't let my little girl do it either. I don't paint mine and it has more to do with me thinking it's unhealthy to put the chemicals on your nail bed than anything else.
But if you're asking if I would allow my boys to dress "feminine", no I probably wouldn't. I wouldn't let them wear dresses or high heels. It's one thing if it's dress up in the house with their sister. I don't have a problem with that. But I wouldn't allow them to wear it outside of our house. I'm sexist like that.
We're Scottish though and DH often wears his kilt in public for various functions. The boys have kilts too, so that's about as close as they will get to a skirt.
No offense intended, but I kind of roll my eyes at anyone who thinks they have the "most important job in the world."
But I'm not going to lie. When I read the excerpt of her speech I was a little miffed that she doesn't seem to include women who aren't moms in her sweeping, glorious language about women, by which she means mothers. If moms are holding the nation together, wtf are the rest of us doing? Maybe the rest of her speech had nice things to say about women who don't want kids?
This is what I thought too as I was reading the speech. It seemed to glorify mothers (and yes, being a mom is hard) and left out all other women.
No offense intended, but I kind of roll my eyes at anyone who thinks they have the "most important job in the world."
But I'm not going to lie. When I read the excerpt of her speech I was a little miffed that she doesn't seem to include women who aren't moms in her sweeping, glorious language about women, by which she means mothers. If moms are holding the nation together, wtf are the rest of us doing? Maybe the rest of her speech had nice things to say about women who don't want kids?
Completely anecdotal evidence ahead, but I often wonder if the gender roles/expecations we have of our family and friends as well as society in general actually plays a big part in the interests of girls/boys or what they are innately good at. I agree with pp who said that the stereotyping can be bad because it can prevent certain behaviors or cause problems because you aren't supposed to be good at those things. Who decided who is supposed to do what anyhow?
Since my children were born/came home my husband has been a SAHD and I've been a working mom. We've noticed as our children have gotten older that our children are not a stereotypical girl/boy.
My daughter prefers to play with her pretend mower vs vacuum. She wants to play with tools instead of dolls. She loves cars and trains. Garbage trucks and dump trucks are some of her most prized possessions. I've never ever seen her pick up a doll other than to use it's plastic head as a hammer. She gets princess stuff and looks at it like WTF and then keeps it for all her girly friends who come over. The only girly thing she does like is getting her nails painted. Her hair makes her look like a little Tarzan.
My son loves babies - holding them, feeding them, wearing them. He's tried to nurse them. He loves the play kitchen and vacuum. He has loved the color pink and always wants his nails painted. He's incredibly nurturing, especially to younger kids and pets. He helps daddy do laundry and loves to help cook. Of course he still turns anything and everything into a sword and loves super heroes.
When my kids play pretend, my daughter goes to work and my son stays home. My daughter is the doctor and my son is the nurse. They often play opposite traditional roles. I just wonder if it's because the example they have to follow in our family is untraditional.
So when I hear about examples of girls and boys being innately different - with girls preferring girly toys, I just can't relate. It's not my experience at all and often wonder if my children would behaving differently with a different example, or if they are just innately opposite of other girls or boys.
No offense intended, but I kind of roll my eyes at anyone who thinks they have the "most important job in the world."
But I'm not going to lie. When I read the excerpt of her speech I was a little miffed that she doesn't seem to include women who aren't moms in her sweeping, glorious language about women, by which she means mothers. If moms are holding the nation together, wtf are the rest of us doing? Maybe the rest of her speech had nice things to say about women who don't want kids?
This is kind of how I feel. I get that I'm in the minority since I'm 40 and don't have (or want) kids. Still, I am not alone, especially if you count women who want kids eventually, but don't have them yet. It's like we aren't really contributing anything.
As for differences between women and men, I think there are some inherent differences, but I don't think that means one sex is superior and the other is totally inept. Plus, how is it possible that many men are good at multitasking and planning at the office, but seem incapable of using those same skills at home? That is NOT related to ability (or lack of). It's related to gender stereotypes and those men not being willing (or expected) to step up and pull their weight.
This type of female matryring is one of my biggest pet peeves. If you don't demand it of their spouse then you will be stuck with the world Ann described. That is not a life for me. I sound like I am his mom but I expect my husband to be just as capable at parenting and household duties as I am. And I will raise my boys in the same way.
I remember once catching my mom silently crying as she cleaned the kitchen at 11:30 at night while my dad slept peacefully. That moment has always stuck with me. I never wanted to be the woman silently weeping as she tried to keep a household and a career going as her husband relaxed. No thank you.
Women can pretend they are heroes that can't be replaced and men can be lazy and get a pat of on the back if they do so much as throw some chicken nuggets in the microwave.
I think people conflate equality in rights to equality in all respects. I want, and deserved equal RIGHTS to any other person, butI don't want to be equal to men.
I think people conflate equality in rights to equality in all respects. I want, and deserved equal RIGHTS to any other person, butI don't want to be equal to men.
Do you mean you want to be equal, but not the same? Because if so, I can totally understand that. To me, equal to men = equal rights, so I found your statement a bit confusing. (That's a lot of "equals" in the same sentence!)
Post by wrathofkuus on Aug 30, 2012 10:13:04 GMT -5
Well, I for one am SHOCKED that aw's kids, who have aw and Mr. aw as their primary role models, are showing early signs of taking on traditional gender roles. Call that a social experiment, because there is just NO other explanation for this than inherent differences between the sexes!
And lol that women are willing to do more. Yep, we're totally happy and comfortable with this, no huge multidecade political movement fighting this or anything.
So you're essentially going to be modeling the traditional gender roles then? At first it seemed like you were going to swing away from that, but based on your answer, it doesn't seem that way. Thanks for answering!
So you're essentially going to be modeling the traditional gender roles then? At first it seemed like you were going to swing away from that, but based on your answer, it doesn't seem that way. Thanks for answering!
. We plan to model Biblical roles for men and women, because we feel that is an important part of our faith, but I'm not sure that our version of Biblical femininity is what you think it is. I look at the Proverbs 31 woman and I see someone who doesn't just sit at home cooking and cleaning. She's someone who also works outside of the home (so long as it doesn't interfere with her ability to mother her children). I am a working mother. That isn't very traditional. My children will see that and see how it is possible to do both.
And like I said, we are teaching our boys to cook and clean. My oldest son loves putting on an apron and baking with me.
But these things are external and silly and don't define what it is to be a man or a woman to me. I think a lot of people in this thread are thinking solely in terms of household chores. That's the least of my concern. I'm talking more about being a mother and being a father. They are two different things to me and have little to do with your chore list. It's easy for a man to clean a toilet or do a load of laundry. It's not as easy for him to be a mother.
How does your husband nurture or comfort that is different than you, aw? is the way he does these things b/c he is a man?
I think that he provides comfort in terms of security. He makes my kids feel safe, whereas I am their soft place to fall. Both things are equally important, but they are very different.
Sure, we both kiss boo-boos and give hugs when they are having a bad day, but I am better at it. Example, we're in the hospital when my oldest was having his hydrocele surgery. Prior to the surgery my son was very scared about going into the surgery room all alone. He was clinging to my husband and wanting him to comfort him, probably because my husband makes him feel safer. I wasn't able to calm him down the way DH could. But after the surgery, when DS was in pain, he wanted nothing to do with DH and was crying for me. I serve a different purpose.
Is it because he is a man and I am a woman? I don't know. It could just be that this is the way things work in our family. But I think my kids see my husband's larger stature and his deeper voice and think it is intimidating, not only to them but to others. They know that Daddy is stronger and can provide them protection that I may not be able to provide. And maybe they look to me when they are hurting because I am what they are used to and I am there more. Who knows? But I do feel that I (and most women) are more in tune to others' emotional and even physical needs than most men.
AW, I'm not offended by your stance and I respect your opinion. Honestly, most the time I really respect your opinions.
But I often think about your transition to being "pro-choice" because of the discussions you've had about politics vs. your own faith. And you acknowledged that your way isn't necessarily the way of everyone, or the way life should be regulated by the government.
If and when my husband and I have children and we want one of us to stay home, why shouldn't we, as a society, work towards employment equality so that EITHER of us can make that choice? Currently, my salary could not support us. My husband's could. So I would, by default, be the one who HAD to stay home. (You can argue that women are attracted to "lower paying" careers, such as things in the humanities, but is it because of nature? Is it because of social conditioning? And are these careers paid less because they are "female" jobs?)
Studies (recent ones) have shown that while the gap is closing, women still do a LOT more childcare and housework, regardless of whether or not they work outside the home more than or at the same rate as the men in their households. Why is it okay for one spouse to expect to do 70% of the housework and 80% of the childcare when both spouses work 8+ hours a day?
IMO, as a society, we should strive for equality in all forms. The expectations should be equally placed on men and women. Women should be encouraged to succeed in the work place and given the tools to do so (including promotions, decent wages, etc). Men should be encouraged to learn how to run their own home. (I'm thankful that I met my husband when he was in his 30s and he had learned to live on his own - although, honestly, he is one of the least sexist people I have ever met, and I have to thank my MIL as well.) We've gotten to the point where we acknowledge that women might not be able to be SAHM's forever - accidents, divorce, etc might mean a woman needs to be able to be successful in her career. Why shouldn't men have the same expectation in the home? Why shouldn't dads be pressured to keep nice homes and be involved with their children?
Obviously, there are some innate differences. For example, a mother who is EBFing can't expect to share baby-feeding duties with her husband in the middle of the night. But I can expect my husband to perhaps take on more of the cooking or housework, or more of the diaper changes if I'm doing more of the feeding.
Anyway, I just wanted to point that out. I know your faith dictates that your husband is the head of your household, and that there are different gender roles which should be nurtured. And that's fine. I think that once we get to the point where there's an equilibrium in society and everyone is expected to pitch in with their fair share, then it's absolutely none of my business if an individual couple decide, without the pressure of society's gender roles, to have the mother take on more of the childcare or cooking, or the father be the "breadwinner." I think you can absolutely live your life in the way you believe, but not think it's necessarily best for all families.
No offense intended, but I kind of roll my eyes at anyone who thinks they have the "most important job in the world."
But I'm not going to lie. When I read the excerpt of her speech I was a little miffed that she doesn't seem to include women who aren't moms in her sweeping, glorious language about women, by which she means mothers. If moms are holding the nation together, wtf are the rest of us doing? Maybe the rest of her speech had nice things to say about women who don't want kids?