Amazing Ask a Manager post: fired from internship

[vanillacourage]

Q:
I was able to get a summer internship at a company that does work in the industry I want to work in after I graduate. Even though the division I was hired to work in doesn’t deal with clients or customers, there still was a very strict dress code. I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code.

I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code. We accompanied the proposal with a petition, signed by all of the interns (except for one who declined to sign it) and gave it to our managers to consider. Our proposal requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code.

The next day, all of us who signed the petition were called into a meeting where we thought our proposal would be discussed. Instead, we were informed that due to our “unprofessional” behavior, we were being let go from our internships. We were told to hand in our ID badges and to gather our things and leave the property ASAP.

We were shocked. The proposal was written professionally like examples I have learned about in school, and our arguments were thought out and well-reasoned. We weren’t even given a chance to discuss it. The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a former soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear whatever kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had known about this we would have factored it into our argument.

I have never had a job before (I’ve always focused on school) and I was hoping to gain some experience before I graduate next year. I feel my dismissal was unfair and would like to ask them to reconsider but I’m not sure the best way to go about it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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A:
Oooooohhhh.

Firing the whole group of you was a pretty extreme reaction, but I can understand why they were highly annoyed.

Y’all were pretty out of line. You were interns there — basically guests for the summer. Their rules are their rules. This is like being a houseguest and presenting your host with a signed petition (!) to change their rules about cleaning up after yourself. You just don’t have the standing to do that.

To be clear, that doesn’t mean that you need to suck up any and every condition of an internship. You don’t. But this wasn’t something like asking you to do unsafe work or work unreasonable hours; this was asking you to abide by what sounds like a very common and reasonable professional dress code.

They presumably have that dress code because, rightly or wrongly, they’ve determined that it’s in their best interest. Sometimes these sorts of dress codes make sense (like when you’re dealing with clients who expect a certain image). Other times they don’t. But you really, really don’t have standing as interns to push back on it in such an aggressive way. And beyond standing, you don’t have enough knowledge as interns to push back so aggressively — knowledge of their context, their clients, and their culture.

What you could have done was to say, “Would you talk to us about the dress code and explain why it’s important? We’re sure we’ll run into this again in future jobs, but coming from the more casual environment of school, it’s not intuitive to us why so many businesses have formal dress codes. We’d appreciate getting a better understanding.”

But instead, you assumed you knew better (despite being in a position where the whole point is that you don’t have experience and are there to learn) and then went about it in a pretty aggressive way. A petition is … well, it’s not something you typically see at work. It signals that you think that if you get enough signatures, your company will feel pressured to act, and that’s just not how this stuff works. A company is not going to change its dress code because its interns sign a petition.

Honestly, if my summer interns banded together and this was what they decided to take on, I’d have some serious questions about their judgment and their priorities. I wouldn’t fire you for it … but I would not be impressed and we would be having a very stern conversation in which I explained the above.

The fact that they did fire all of you for it makes me wonder if there were other issues too and this pushed them over the edge. Were you getting good feedback before this, or had you noticed your manager trying to rein you in on other things? If there were other issues, I can more easily understand them just throwing up their hands and being finished with the whole thing.

In any case, I don’t think you can ask them to reconsider. What’s done is done. But it would be smart to write a letter to your manager explaining that you’ve learned from the situation and that you appreciate the opportunity they gave you and are sorry that you squandered it. They’re not likely to invite you back, but a note like that will probably soften them up a little and will mean that they don’t think so witheringly of you in the future.

Aghast at the cojones.

If these were your group of interns, would you have fired them?

[redheadbaker]

Yeah, I'd have fired them.

[josieposy]

Would I have fired them? Probably not. But they would not have had a good meeting with me after that nonsense either.

[alexis]

I have never had a job before (I’ve always focused on school) and I was hoping to gain some experience before I graduate next year.


You don't say! I guess this guy had gained some needed experience.

[iammalcolmx]

Yes I would have fired them especially if there was a waiting list for Interns at my organization. If they behave like this now I CANNOT IMAGINE how they would behave as employees. I bet anything they did other shit that annoyed the firing manager as well.

[CallingAllAngels]

Of course the woman not adhering to the dress code has a disability. Anyone with sense saw that coming a mile away.

One thing that annoys me about my kids is that they think they know better than me, despite me having 30+ years more experience in this life. If they are still like this when they are in college, I will consider myself a failure at parenting.

[josieposy]

That is a good point that this may have been a last straw kinda thing. If that was the case then yeah I'd boot them out. If that was the only offense, I'd be in their face but not firing them.

[isabel]

I can't stop laughing. What a bunch of entitled brats. I'm glad they got fired. You have no right to know why anyone is an exception to the rule, nor do you have any right to question something as mundane and unimpactful as a dress code. Hopefully this teaches some of them a lesson.

[rupertpenny]

The dress code sounds a bit arbitrary (leather shoes are $$$) but yikes. They are not in a position to complain. I'd keep wearing my pleather flats and silently dare someone to question me about them.

[josieposy]

There is something to be said that at least one of them had the sense not to go down that road.

[jeaniebueller]

Wait.....what? Why did they think this is a good idea and that they are special snowflakes?

[pixy0stix]

Well this was a good life lesson for these babies. Just because you present something in a well reasoned way doesn't mean that you're going to get it. I'm going to guess they are all middle-upper class white children.

[tacokick]

LOL for days! It doesn't seem like the fact that the woman had special permission to wear the shoes she did due to her war injury would have deterred them from the petition either, he would have factored it into their argument! Next!

[marriedfilingjoint]

Millennials, amirite?! (Jk, I was born in 1983). The part about had they known the person was a wounded soldier they would have factored that into their argument? SIT THE FUCK DOWN. Had you known that, you should have shut your mouth, apologized profusely, and said have a nice day. This idiot clearly learned nothing.

[marriedfilingjoint]

Jun 29, 2016 8:54:22 GMT -5 josieposy said:

There is something to be said that at least one of them had the sense not to go down that road.

Just one, though. Can you imagine? Lol "shits about to go downnnnn."

[iammalcolmx]

However they were participating in a NLRB protected concerted activity. Wait until an attorney reads this.

[ECB]

Yes - I would have fired them. For many of them, this was actually their SECOND attempt at making a change. The writer and "others" all went to their manager and were told "no". THEN they went and did this petition.

The entitlement. I think firing them is what is going to REALLY make them realize "oh, shit, we went to far". Giving them a stern talking to - well, they were told once "no", why should the manager have any faith that being told again is going to make a difference?

But I'll say - LEATHER shoes are required? That seems a bit strict in this day and age and with all the other materials shoes are made out of. Unless, of course, they are trying to avoid having women show up in high-heeled crocs.

[emilyj]

Yes. I would have.

This is the mentality that drives me NUTS in the classroom. "The proposal was written professionally like examples I have learned about in school, and our arguments were thought out and well-reasoned."

If that's even true, then it still doesn't entitle you to what you are asking for.

And I'm even more appalled that they would have factored the soldier's disability in to their arguments had they known.

Bye Felicia.

[josieposy]

Jun 29, 2016 9:02:03 GMT -5 marriedfilingjoint said:

Jun 29, 2016 8:54:22 GMT -5 josieposy said:

There is something to be said that at least one of them had the sense not to go down that road.

Just one, though. Can you imagine? Lol "shits about to go downnnnn."

"And congrats to Jane, who is now hired on permanently." LOL!

[pixy0stix]

See also the Abigail Fisher thread.

[LeggsBenedict]

lol

[mbcdefg]

Are they also planning to sue the DNC?

Spoiled brats. I'm sure there are PLENTY of other eager young people who'll happily take their place and wear whatever the company asks them to wear. 

[aurora]

Jun 29, 2016 8:57:41 GMT -5 tacokick said:

LOL for days! It doesn't seem like the fact that the woman had special permission to wear the shoes she did due to her war injury would have deterred them from the petition either, he would have factored it into their argument! Next!

Yeah, the factoring in was hilarious.

Our dress code is something like "wear clothes" so I wouldn't be in this position if I managed interns, but I think this will be a good life lesson for them. I might have talked to them individually and considered fitting on a case-by-case basis depending on whether they seemed to have learned something or whether they had been problematic before.

[wambam]

It's an internship, guys. You can wear professional dress for a couple months and then go back to wearing whatever you feel like in the fall.

[aurora]

Jun 29, 2016 9:03:09 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

However they were participating in a NLRB protected concerted activity. Wait until an attorney reads this.

Interesting. So does that mean you can't legally be fired for petitioning?

[cayl]

"The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a former soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear whatever kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had known about this we would have factored it into our argument."

WTF? I was expecting it to say "The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a former soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear whatever kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had known about this we would have NEVER ASKED AND UNDERSTOOD THE ACCOMMODATION." It would have been included in the argument?! These people deserved to be fired.

[StrawberryBlondie]

I do hate shoe guidelines because i think they tend to punish women... but yeah, i probably would've fired them too. That's way out of line.

[kirra]

As someone with an accommodation to wear shoes that violate our dress code, I wouldn't be thrilled that they disclosed that information to a group of interns they were firing. Especially this group- they seem prone to escalating, and I'm not surprised it's already on the Internet. I don't want to be dragged into that mess- especially when anyone with a brain can figure out that ONE exception probably means it's an accommodation.

[blink]

Jun 29, 2016 9:03:19 GMT -5 emilyj said:

Yes. I would have.

This is the mentality that drives me NUTS in the classroom. "The proposal was written professionally like examples I have learned about in school, and our arguments were thought out and well-reasoned."

If that's even true, then it still doesn't entitle you to what you are asking for.

And I'm even more appalled that they would have factored the soldier's disability in to their arguments had they known.

Bye Felicia.

I think this is what did me in. The interns seemed so used to just getting praised when they give thought out and well-reasoned arguments and getting good grades thrown at them, and then they go and think it just works that way everywhere. It's like arguing ("intelligently") that a company should really hire you as CEO when you just graduated and then crying "but my argument was coherent!"

[kirra]

Jun 29, 2016 9:07:46 GMT -5 aurora said:

Jun 29, 2016 8:57:41 GMT -5 tacokick said:

LOL for days! It doesn't seem like the fact that the woman had special permission to wear the shoes she did due to her war injury would have deterred them from the petition either, he would have factored it into their argument! Next!

Yeah, the factoring in was hilarious.

Our dress code is something like "wear clothes" so I wouldn't be in this position if I managed interns, but I think this will be a good life lesson for them. I might have talked to them individually and considered fitting on a case-by-case basis depending on whether they seemed to have learned something or whether they had been problematic before.

How the hell would you factor it in? "She can't walk in dress shoes, so you made an exception, so you should make an exception for all able bodied people"?