NBR: parenting advice please

[susiebw]

Sorry to drop this here, but I need rational opinions and advice, and you guys are generally pretty good for that.  Sorry it's kind of long, but I really appreciate the help . . .

DD turns 5 two weeks into September - 2 weeks past the age cutoff for public school Kindergarten.  She's a smart kid and emotionally stable and IMO, ready for kindergarten.  I see lots of kids who are already 5 and for whom starting kindergarten this fall is a given who appear far less "ready" than DD.  With that in mind, we filed a waiver petition with the school department to allow her to start K early (2 weeks early).  They told us that it's a really high standard, that not many get approved, and to make sure we have a back-up plan in case it is denied.  Our back up plan was that she would go to private K at the daycare where she's been going for 2 years. 

A month ago, the daycare cancelled their K program, and instead instituted an "advanced pre-k" for kids exactly like DD - fall birthdays, beyond doing another year of pre-k, but unable to go to K.  But no one was really able to explain the program to us any better than that, because it was brand new.  Suddenly DD's teacher went from telling us for the past few months that "OF COURSE she's ready for K" to recommending that maybe a year in this advanced pre-K would be good for her.  So I thought that was sketchy. 

Meanwhile, some of her friends from her pre-k class are going to the public school where she'd go, and they're all excited and she's been in this limbo of waiting to hear about the petition for months.  She has always said how she wants to go to that public school with her friends.  Also, now that it's summer, her pre-K class has been split so that the already-5s are in another class while the not-yet-5s are separated (presumably because the already-5s are heading to K next year and the others are doing the school's advanced pre-k).  DD's best friends are all already 5, so she never gets to see them any more and is stuck with the littler kids, a fact she has cried about no less than 5 times in the past 3 weeks.

We looked around for a new back-up plan, and found an amazing private school where DD was evaluated and accepted to start K this fall, but it was going to be terribly expensive, so we were holding off actually signing the contract there until we heard back from the public school department about the waiver petition, just to make sure.  We found out yesterday that she was accepted for public school.  YAY!  Except that when we told her yesterday, she didn't seem excited at all.

Fast-forward to this morning, when DH was getting her ready to leave for daycare, and she's all nervous because she can't find her lunchbox.  Because she thinks she's starting kindergarten today.  So obviously, we did a bad job of explaining to her what it actually meant that she was accepted for kindergarten with her friends, but that's not the real issue. 

TLDR: On the way to school this morning, DD told DH that her teacher tells her all the time that she isn't ready for kindergarten and that "your parents think you're ready, but you're not."  She said that the teacher says this to her every day.  WTF?  DH told me that she told him this about a minute before they pulled into daycare, so he didn't have a whole talk with her about it, and she's only 4, so I know that her concept of "every day" is sometimes exaggerated or off, but still.  And even if the teacher is not saying those exact words to her, I'm more than a little concerned that this is the message DD is receiving.  I want to call the school director immediately and talk about this and about the fact that she's going to K in the fall and should be with the other K kids, but I don't want to come off as a PITA parent.  Am I being rational?  WWYD?

[susiebw]

Also, I'm an emotional wreck today, so hearing that DD is feeling this way makes me feel like an awful parent. Am I putting too much pressure on her? Should we just be waiting another year for her to go to kindergarten? Am I pushing her to grow up too fast?

So that's the background for why I'm posting this.

Before this whole petition process, I feel like DD was more confident than she is now. I'm afraid that all the evaluations and uncertainty about schools and everything has really affected her.

Gah. Today is the worst. Thanks for reading/listening.

[charlatti]

I would absolutely talk to the teacher and probably also the director about the teacher saying she's not ready. Who would say that to a kid? That's awful. I would definitely try to get her moved to the group that's going to K also. Really, so what if you're being that mom? It's not like this is a college kid. She's 4.

Public schools at least around here are notoriously rigorous about letting kids in after the cutoff. If they say she's ready, she is ready. I can understand her being worried or nervous now that it's a reality. Does the school offer any summer get togethers or anything like that? But I'd keep talking it up, maybe try to arrange play dates with her friends who are going.

And lots of hugs to you. You're an awesome mama for fighting for her, and she'll be fine. (And really the school accepting her makes me confident that she's ready. They don't volunteer for extra kids who need extra help.)

[snshne322]

Wes is 8 days after the 9/30 cut off for my town, so while I'm not there yet, I understand totally where you're coming from. I'll be there in a year.

I really dislike the mixed signals you're getting about T's readiness for school. It's hard to be unbiased as a parent as far as how smart/ready you think your kid is and you're relying on the professionals to give you the information that you're lacking. Do you think she's changed her tune because of the change in program? Now that there is an option at the center that's not kindergarten? I'm leaning toward going with your gut and sending her to the public K.

As far as the comments T is hearing, I would mention something. I'd be pretty heartbroken if Wes told me that someone was telling him that he wasn't ready or smart enough, especially when they can see that the friends that ARE ready are being separated. One or the other, I can kind of put aside, but now she's seeing how she's different and it's a negative connotation.

Maybe just bring up that she's been upset and mention what she relayed so you can have an open dialogue with the school? I know sometimes kids mix things up, but clarification would be helpful.

This comes from Wes telling me last night that his best friend at daycare told him that he was going to die in a closet. WTF?!?!?! They're 3!!

[susiebw]

charlatti, when we started the waiver process, they told us that she has to test 1.5 times above average for them to approve the waiver. So after that meeting, DH and I were not very hopeful that she would get in. We know she's a smart kid, but that's a really high standard. But now that they have accepted her and apparently determined that she meets that high standard, and the fancy private school also evaluated her and determined that she's ready, I think I'm more confident than eve that she's ready. But then I see how she's handling it and I second guess all that.

And yes, I absolutely get the feeling that her teacher changed her tune because the school changed programs. It was literally a week difference between when she said "oh, of course they'll grant the waiver, she's totally ready" to "maybe a year in advanced pre-K before she starts K would be good for her."

I was fine when she wasn't super excited yesterday, but then to hear this morning that she's being told at her current school that she's not ready, and taking that in with the fact that she's separated from her friends, snshne322 hit the nail in the head, it's heartbreaking. I get why she wasn't excited yesterday when all of that other noise is going on for her at her current school. I've been wanting to talk to the director about moving her to the class with the other K kids, because one way or the other, she was going to go to K next year, but I'm really upset about the one teacher telling her that she's not ready and we're wrong to think she is.

[ufcasey]

My kid is an October birthday and there's a September 1 cutoff, so he's not going to Kindergarten despite knowing how to read for 6 months already (and I really mean read - he can already read about 90% of first grade books, so he's definitely ahead). Definitely proceed with Kindergarten in the fall with the waiver. Just sit your daughter down and explain that in a couple on months she will be going to a new school with her friends X, Y, and Z. But for now, she will be in her current class with teacher B and will be learning lots of new things so she will be ready for her new school. Then go talk to that teacher, tell her about how your daughter is going to Kindergarten in the fall and that you wanted to let her know because your daughter has reported that she's been told in class that she's not ready but you're sure the teacher only meant not ready yet because school starts in the fall (yeah right, but this is a more tactful way of approaching it).

[susiebw]

Jul 8, 2016 10:08:34 GMT -5 c7 said:

We are going to be in this exact situation. DD turn 5 three weeks past the cut off.

1. Absolutely have a conference with the teacher and daycare supervisor. I get that they're probably trying to recruit for their new program but "you're not ready even if your parents think you are" is really shitty thing to say to a 4 y.o. Recruit through the parents, not through the kids!

2. DD is going through a lot of change right now - she's in a new class, her friends are separated, the idea of kindergarten is Big and Scary. Don't let her (feigned) indifference or anxiety dissuade you from making the "early" K decision. She's going to be upset any time a big change comes around. Whether she transitions to K now or next year, she will be nervous. All you can do is make the best decision you can for her and help her prepare for it. Good luck!

I think that somewhere in the depths of my brain, I fully understand this to be true and know that her nerves are just about the fact that things are changing at all, but I just keep feeling like it's our fault for pushing the issue of starting K this year, and I guess I'm struggling to get past that.  This stuff is HARD.  Good luck when you're dealing with it.  Does she turn 4 this year, so you're going to be in this spot next year?  Do you know what you want to do yet?

We also talk to her about everything, all the time, and sometimes I wonder if that is also too much stress for her.  Before we started the waiver thing with the Town, we had always told her she would go to K at the school we drive by all the time, and she was amped about it.  But then after that meeting where they told us not to get our hopes up, we started preparing her for the possibility that she might go elsewhere.  And then she had a few rounds of evaluations.  And we talked about K at her daycare.  And then we took her to visit 2 potential private schools.  And talked a little about the idea of advanced pre-K.  All the while also saying there was still a chance she'd go to that school we drive by.  So I also feel like we contributed to her nerves and confusion by explaining everything to her all the time.  It's exhausting.  You try to prepare them for things, but maybe sometimes we try too hard?  I don't know.

One of my BFFs has a son who is 5 weeks older than DD (he's about to turn 5 in early august), and they're BFFs and will go to school together.  He has recently taken to telling people that he's already 7 years old, and also that he's not having a birthday this year, because in either of those scenarios, he doesn't turn 5 and therefore doesn't have to go to K.  He's THAT terrified about it.

[ThirdandLong]

fwiw My birthday is September 25th, and I started school when I was 4. I graduated 3rd in my class at the end of high school. I was quite academically successful in college.

You know your daughter better than anyone else. If she's a good listener and willing to learn, then I'm sure she'll do just fine. Plus, you and your H will spend time with her, going over the homework, enforcing the lessons from school, reading to her at night. I think a child's success in kindergarten has to do in LARGE PART to the amount of time that parents are willing to dedicate at home to going over the lessons and homework.

Change is scary for many of us. As an introverted person, I have always had a lot of anxiety when I experience life changes that throw me in with new people and have to make new friends, even now as an adult. Perhaps your daughter is a tad introverted, and she'll feel better once she's become acclimated to Kindergarten and her new class and her new friends. She's just a little nervous because she doesn't know what to expect, I'd bet.

[ThirdandLong]

Also, is it really a point of no return? I mean, if she starts this fall and she really struggles to adapt longer than what you'd think is normal for someone trying to settle in, can't you pull her back out? Or if she seems like she's struggling, you could look into something like Sylvan or tutoring. It doesn't automatically mean 'failure', right?

My son is a 2nd grader and my daughter a 1st grader this fall. Kindergarten is really not difficult for kids that have been to a preschool-type program. They relearn each letter of the alphabet, the colors, the shapes. They learn 'popcorn' words, which are commonly used words such as and, it, with, my, etc. They do alot of drawing and coloring. They learn some simple computer usage. Some of the biggest lessons are keeping your hands to yourself, being quiet when required, learning to walk in a single file line. If you feel your daughter is ready, then I'm sure she can handle these things. And there are MANY kids in your daughter's class that will not have had the benefit of any preschool program like your daughter has, plenty of kids that do not know their letters or shapes or colors, and the teacher has to go slow for those kiddos.

[hocus2]

Jul 8, 2016 11:38:04 GMT -5 ThirdandLong said:

My son is a 2nd grader and my daughter a 1st grader this fall. Kindergarten is really not difficult for kids that have been to a preschool-type program. They relearn each letter of the alphabet, the colors, the shapes. They learn 'popcorn' words, which are commonly used words such as and, it, with, my, etc. They do alot of drawing and coloring. They learn some simple computer usage. Some of the biggest lessons are keeping your hands to yourself, being quiet when required, learning to walk in a single file line. If you feel your daughter is ready, then I'm sure she can handle these things. And there are MANY kids in your daughter's class that will not have had the benefit of any preschool program like your daughter has, plenty of kids that do not know their letters or shapes or colors, and the teacher has to go slow for those kiddos.

 I think your K program is really different from ours and possibly the OP. What you're describing is prek around here.

In K the alphabet is taught/reviewed in about 30 days. Then they move on to writing, reading (and really reading, not just popcorn works), they learn addition and subtraction is well as other math concepts that were used to be introduced in 1st or 2nd. Shapes is a single month long unit at the end of the year. K is hard hard work here and it was a hard year for child who was just 4 weeks ahead of the cut off. There are certainly young kids who do fine if they're close to the cut off but I would not assume that K is mostly focused on socialization.

To the OP: Good luck with your decision. There isn't really a clear cut right answer. If red shirting is common in your area then it would give me pause because your daughter wouldn't just be the youngest by 12M+2 weeks but possibly by 24 months. I'd also factor in the rigor of K. As you can see if varies widely. 

[ufcasey]

Yeah I would scale back on telling her things (in general) until plans are 100% concrete. Like, I live in Florida and I won't even tell my kids when we plan to go to the beach until 30 minutes before we're going, because heaven forbid it start to rain and we don't go, they act like the world is ending. Kids just don't deal well with disappointments, and also they don't NEED to be told everything. Just say "we're going to talk to nice people" and not say why, etc. Makes life easier to navigate until they are old enough to go with the flow more. My husband pointed out my son's "new school" once (could have killed him) and now every time we go by it he says "that's my new school" - and he won't be going to it until August of 2017! I had to stop it by saying "maybe, but you might go to another school too. we'll see. let's not talk about that anymore" ad nauseam. LOL

[susiebw]

Jul 8, 2016 11:28:27 GMT -5 ThirdandLong said:

fwiw My birthday is September 25th, and I started school when I was 4. I graduated 3rd in my class at the end of high school. I was quite academically successful in college.

Thank you for this.  I've heard a lot of these stories that have gone the other way, too ("my daughter wound up staying back in 4th grade, and hated us for starting her in K early," etc.), so it's always nice to hear the good ones.

[susiebw]

Jul 8, 2016 11:46:13 GMT -5 hocus2 said:

Jul 8, 2016 11:38:04 GMT -5 ThirdandLong said:

My son is a 2nd grader and my daughter a 1st grader this fall. Kindergarten is really not difficult for kids that have been to a preschool-type program. They relearn each letter of the alphabet, the colors, the shapes. They learn 'popcorn' words, which are commonly used words such as and, it, with, my, etc. They do alot of drawing and coloring. They learn some simple computer usage. Some of the biggest lessons are keeping your hands to yourself, being quiet when required, learning to walk in a single file line. If you feel your daughter is ready, then I'm sure she can handle these things. And there are MANY kids in your daughter's class that will not have had the benefit of any preschool program like your daughter has, plenty of kids that do not know their letters or shapes or colors, and the teacher has to go slow for those kiddos.

 I think your K program is really different from ours and possibly the OP. What you're describing is prek around here.

In K the alphabet is taught/reviewed in about 30 days. Then they move on to writing, reading (and really reading, not just popcorn works), they learn addition and subtraction is well as other math concepts that were used to be introduced in 1st or 2nd. Shapes is a single month long unit at the end of the year. K is hard hard work here and it was a hard year for child who was just 4 weeks ahead of the cut off. There are certainly young kids who do fine if they're close to the cut off but I would not assume that K is mostly focused on socialization.

To the OP: Good luck with your decision. There isn't really a clear cut right answer. If red shirting is common in your area then it would give me pause because your daughter wouldn't just be the youngest by 12M+2 weeks but possibly by 24 months. I'd also factor in the rigor of K. As you can see if varies widely. 

Our schools are more like this, I think.  She's known colors and shapes for literally years - they do that in the toddler classes and DS is already getting pretty good at those at almost 2 years old).  And she's been pretty good at the alphabet since the beginning of this school year.  Her penmanship with her letters is pretty good, and she's got some basic sight words down (the "popcorn" words explained above), but can't read yet.  But around here kids are expected to leave K able to read, write and do basic math.  They start on telling standard time, too.  It's a lot more about academic goals than socialization, I think. 

I honestly don't know how common red-shirting is around here overall, but I know that in our town there are an average 3-4 applications for waivers like we did, and only 1 or 2 is ever approved if any.  I think generally speaking red-shirting is more common with boys anyway.  DS is also a September birthday, but a little later in the month, and I'm already pretty sure that we're not going to be applying for a waiver for him.  I don't think that's technically red-shirting him, though, it's just following the age cut-off.  So while DD will be among the youngest in her class, DS will be among the oldest.

[susiebw]

Jul 8, 2016 11:46:14 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

Yeah I would scale back on telling her things (in general) until plans are 100% concrete. Like, I live in Florida and I won't even tell my kids when we plan to go to the beach until 30 minutes before we're going, because heaven forbid it start to rain and we don't go, they act like the world is ending. Kids just don't deal well with disappointments, and also they don't NEED to be told everything. Just say "we're going to talk to nice people" and not say why, etc. Makes life easier to navigate until they are old enough to go with the flow more. My husband pointed out my son's "new school" once (could have killed him) and now every time we go by it he says "that's my new school" - and he won't be going to it until August of 2017! I had to stop it by saying "maybe, but you might go to another school too. we'll see. let's not talk about that anymore" ad nauseam. LOL

I think the opposite of this can also be true too, though.  We tell our kids everything and always have, and they're generally pretty good at managing disappointments and changes.  Generally.  Maybe c7 is right, and it's the lawyer in us - DH and I are both attorneys - but we talk to our kids like they're small grown ups (within reason, obviously); we expect them to behave a certain way at certain times, and we use logic and reasoning and big words with them, just explaining what stuff means as we go and helping them learn to pronounce the big words.  DD told a bully in her class that he's inconsequential to her - he doesn't bug her anymore.  Similarly, we let DD argue her case for things that she wants, and give in when she does a good job explaining herself.  If we have beach plans on the weekend, we have no problem telling her early in the week and if it rains that day, we explain that it's raining so the beach wouldn't be any fun and we do something else.  Everyone moves on because there is logic behind the cancelled plans.

Something huge like a vacation to Disney, I would totally hold off on telling them, though.  I just can only listen to "is it time yet?  when are we going?  Is it time yet?" for so long.

[hocus2]

Jul 8, 2016 12:28:01 GMT -5 susiebw said:

Jul 8, 2016 11:46:13 GMT -5 hocus2 said:

 I think your K program is really different from ours and possibly the OP. What you're describing is prek around here.

In K the alphabet is taught/reviewed in about 30 days. Then they move on to writing, reading (and really reading, not just popcorn works), they learn addition and subtraction is well as other math concepts that were used to be introduced in 1st or 2nd. Shapes is a single month long unit at the end of the year. K is hard hard work here and it was a hard year for child who was just 4 weeks ahead of the cut off. There are certainly young kids who do fine if they're close to the cut off but I would not assume that K is mostly focused on socialization.

To the OP: Good luck with your decision. There isn't really a clear cut right answer. If red shirting is common in your area then it would give me pause because your daughter wouldn't just be the youngest by 12M+2 weeks but possibly by 24 months. I'd also factor in the rigor of K. As you can see if varies widely. 

Our schools are more like this, I think.  She's known colors and shapes for literally years - they do that in the toddler classes and DS is already getting pretty good at those at almost 2 years old).  And she's been pretty good at the alphabet since the beginning of this school year.  Her penmanship with her letters is pretty good, and she's got some basic sight words down (the "popcorn" words explained above), but can't read yet.  But around here kids are expected to leave K able to read, write and do basic math.  They start on telling standard time, too.  It's a lot more about academic goals than socialization, I think. 

I honestly don't know how common red-shirting is around here overall, but I know that in our town there are an average 3-4 applications for waivers like we did, and only 1 or 2 is ever approved if any.  I think generally speaking red-shirting is more common with boys anyway.  DS is also a September birthday, but a little later in the month, and I'm already pretty sure that we're not going to be applying for a waiver for him.  I don't think that's technically red-shirting him, though, it's just following the age cut-off.  So while DD will be among the youngest in her class, DS will be among the oldest.

The fact that read shirting disproportional impacts boys doesn't abate my concern. If 25% of your class is older than the cut off allow then that is going to pull up the average age of the class regardless of the gender mix of the older children.  I have a boy and girl so  I know that boys can appear more immature at times but I think that in a classroom environment having an age range of 18+ months is hard on the youngest children no matter how age distributes across gender. Depending how pervasive red shirting in I feel like some of the oldest kids are more disruptive than the younger children in the class because they are just too old for where they are.

I'm not saying you shouldn't move forward, it is just something to factor into your though processes. I never considered hold my kids back even though my older one is very close to the cut off. If RSing was common here that would have been a factor in my decision. Overall my school system is very strict about it which is a relief to me.

[susiebw]

I called the daycare about the teacher comments, and I spoke to the assistant director because the director is on vacay this week.  I'm glad I called, it was reassuring.

The split with the already-5s and the not-yet-5s is because they just needed to make the class sizes smaller and more manageable, and they aren't allowed by state law to have kids under 5 in the school-age room where the already-5s moved to.  It has absolutely nothing to do with readiness, and there are a few kids still with DD that are also starting K this fall.

He was as surprised and upset about the teacher comment as I was, and 100% agreed with me that the fact that DD even gets the impression that her teachers think she's not ready is unacceptable.  So that was also good to hear.  He's going to talk to the director on Monday and they will talk with the teachers about it.

[susiebw]

Jul 8, 2016 12:42:45 GMT -5 hocus2 said:

<abbr title="Jul 8, 2016 13:42:45 GMT -4" class="time" data-timestamp="1467999765000">Jul 8, 2016 13:42:45 GMT -4</abbr> hocus2 said:

The fact that read shirting disproportional impacts boys doesn't abate my concern. If 25% of your class is older than the cut off allow then that is going to pull up the average age of the class regardless of the gender mix of the older children.  I have a boy and girl so  I know that boys can appear more immature at times but I think that in a classroom environment having an age range of 18+ months is hard on the youngest children no matter how age distributes across gender. Depending how pervasive red shirting in I feel like some of the oldest kids are more disruptive than the younger children in the class because they are just too old for where they are.

I'm not saying you shouldn't move forward, it is just something to factor into your though processes. I never considered hold my kids back even though my older one is very close to the cut off. If RSing was common here that would have been a factor in my decision. Overall my school system is very strict about it which is a relief to me.

I see what you're saying.  I don't think it's as high as 25% of the class, but I just don't know.  I know that a boy in DD's pre-k class who's birthday is Sept 2 is being red-shirted this year and he's doing advanced pre-K, but that's the only story I've ever heard.  I feel like our parents never found this stuff to be so hard - was red-shirting even a thing back when we were all little kids?

[revjen]

I'm going to be a little cynical here and mention that the pre-k will lose money if she goes to public school k. Maybe they have been told to push to keep kids in the program at all costs.

[susiebw]

Jul 8, 2016 13:44:04 GMT -5 revjen said:

I'm going to be a little cynical here and mention that the pre-k will lose money if she goes to public school k. Maybe they have been told to push to keep kids in the program at all costs.

Yeah, that's exactly the feeling I got when the teacher changed her tune a month ago.  The K program was cancelled because our town switched to full-day K, and that is the plan for the whole state - within the next few years, every town will switch to full-day K, so there will be far fewer people willing to pay for K at a private daycare place when they can send their kids to full-day K for free and only pay the daycare for after-school care.  So OF COURSE they want to keep the kids there and making money.

[susiebw]

Thank you guys for your thoughts and insight on this today. It helped me get through an emotional and all around rough day. I'm never on here on weekends, so everyone have a good weekend!