"Good" Schools Discussion

[PatBenatar]

This has been weighing on my mind lately with the new school year starting and a comment someone made at a party I was at recently. Someone posted this article on CEP a few months ago and it's stuck with me so I wanted to share.

My neighborhood is pretty diverse and we will be sending K to the public school in our district.  Many many people have made comments that our school district is bad, yet their children don't go there.  The "good" school districts around here in people's eyes are the ones in upper class predominately white neighborhoods.

K is going to pre-k at one of the schools in our district so we have been touring her future kindergarten, talking to the teachers, learning about the education she will receive.  I have found nothing to indicate that the school isn't good (except test scores which I find to be crap anyway) so I assume everyone saying it's bad means a lot of black kids go there (not that anyone will admit that when I ask)

Having trouble C&Ping the article, but here it is:  

www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/choosing-a-school-for-my-daughter-in-a-segregated-city.html?_r=0 

[sunshineluv]

Thanks for sharing, I will read this later today.

[rjamz]

I read this a couple of weeks ago (I think claralou sent it to me). It was so upsetting

[rjamz]

More thoughts on this: I live in an incredibly segregated city (no secret there) and time and time again the "good" schools are in wealthy north side neighborhoods. And people talk about South side schools as if there's no way they could even improve, so why even bother? And the undertone is "those schools are predominantly black, so they won't succeed anyway." It makes me sick to my stomach

[betsyray]

We've been having this discussion in our house for years. I'm ashamed I was on the wrong side for a long time. Our kids will go to the local public school, which while as diverse as it gets in our area, is still not really something to be proud of (both by racial and socioeconomic views). That's part of why I am interested in claralou's proposed thread--while my kids will be exposed to more than I was, we need to make sure we are having good conversations at home.

[shevacc]

I read that article a while back. Not only is the status quo discouraging, but the fact that we seem to be moving backwards instead of forwards.

I went to successful integrated schools in NC in the 1980s and 1990s, but they no longer exist, victims of politicians, not parents. Where I grew up, they put the special academic programs and additional enrichments in the schools in the poorest neighborhoods, reserving a percentage of seats for the "base school population", thus preserving economic and racial diversity in those schools. Rather than busing the poor children away, they sent buses from the wealthy suburbs to the inner city. They attracted parents/students with the additional programs and eventually the best teachers ended up there. I rode an hour each way to school -- my parents (and later I) thought it was "worth it".

It wasn't a panacea...my advanced classes tended to be mostly white and Asian kids while the basic classes were predominantly black/Hispanic. But there was a lot more opportunities available to all students, especially the poorest ones. We also learned from/about each other just by proximity. And my high school even made the US News and World Report top 100 list for 5+ years, with the majority of students being of color. I didn't and don't understand why more of these programs weren't replicated elsewhere.

In the last 5 years, the programs in the schools I attended have been mostly disbanded. The politicians argued that struggling students should be concentrated in just a few schools so that the resources to best serve them could also be concentrated in those schools. More likely they wanted to be able to concentrate these students in a few schools they could then ignore. They also wanted to pull the extra funding away from these schools. They succeeded, I guess, and now these schools are back to being underenrolled and "failing" just like they were in the early 1980s before they implemented the original magnet school program.

[shevacc]

We now live in a much less racially diverse area, where school districts are much smaller. Thus while we'll enroll our children in the local public schools, there's no diversity to be found, economic nor racial. I'm not sure what to do about it, though hope to continue having conversations with them about these issues in age appropriate ways over time.

[kandrze1]

Those type of comments annoy me. I'm not sure which district you guys are in specifically, but I know the schools in my district are general considered good and are in a predominately white, upper class area.

All schools have their issues. The attitude that some are "bad" because of location and demographic really sucks. I sent Em to preschool in a district that I believe is closer to you and is definitely more diverse. It was a great school. I've taught in the district my daughter will go to and I've taught in more diverse areas. I really think it all depends on community. My most miserable teaching assignment was in a predominantly white, upper class area. There is a huge gap in equity in our country's public schools and I think that only adds to the type of comments you described.

[PatBenatar]

Sept 9, 2016 14:05:50 GMT -5 kandrze1 said:

Those type of comments annoy me. I'm not sure which district you guys are in specifically, but I know the schools in my district are general considered good and are in a predominately white, upper class area.

All schools have their issues. The attitude that some are "bad" because of location and demographic really sucks. I sent Em to preschool in a district that I believe is closer to you and is definitely more diverse. It was a great school. I've taught in the district my daughter will go to and I've taught in more diverse areas. I really think it all depends on community. My most miserable teaching assignment was in a predominantly white, upper class area. There is a huge gap in equity in our country's public schools and I think that only adds to the type of comments you described.

I'm in "vegas" in the C.C. school district. My SIL is a teacher and said something similar about her teaching experiences too - interesting to hear it from that aspect too

[kandrze1]

Sept 9, 2016 14:25:22 GMT -5 PatBenatar said:

Sept 9, 2016 14:05:50 GMT -5 kandrze1 said:

Those type of comments annoy me. I'm not sure which district you guys are in specifically, but I know the schools in my district are general considered good and are in a predominately white, upper class area.

All schools have their issues. The attitude that some are "bad" because of location and demographic really sucks. I sent Em to preschool in a district that I believe is closer to you and is definitely more diverse. It was a great school. I've taught in the district my daughter will go to and I've taught in more diverse areas. I really think it all depends on community. My most miserable teaching assignment was in a predominantly white, upper class area. There is a huge gap in equity in our country's public schools and I think that only adds to the type of comments you described.

I'm in "vegas" in the C.C. school district. My SIL is a teacher and said something similar about her teaching experiences too - interesting to hear it from that aspect too

E went to a school in MV. I think a lot of the issue in our area is that the first ring suburbs are becoming more diverse and some people equate that to the schools going down hill. I had a friend recently tell me they were moving out of WS (I went to WSW) when they were ready to have kids because the schools were getting "worse". As far as I know CC and WS are still academically strong and offer their student lots of great opportunities. It's ridiculous.

[PatBenatar]

Sept 9, 2016 14:57:50 GMT -5 kandrze1 said:

Sept 9, 2016 14:25:22 GMT -5 PatBenatar said:

I'm in "vegas" in the C.C. school district. My SIL is a teacher and said something similar about her teaching experiences too - interesting to hear it from that aspect too

E went to a school in MV. I think a lot of the issue in our area is that the first ring suburbs are becoming more diverse and some people equate that to the schools going down hill. I had a friend recently tell me they were moving out of WS (I went to WSW) when they were ready to have kids because the schools were getting "worse". As far as I know CC and WS are still academically strong and offer their student lots of great opportunities. It's ridiculous.

Yes exactly this.  I went to MV and hear the same "concerns" about that district too.  I didn't realize people were also saying similar things about WS

[jsillyfun]

We have a fairly diverse neighborhood school but I am trying to get her into one of the other schools simply due to the programs available there (project based learning or an arts based program). If she doesn't get in I have no issue with the neighborhood school (which is actually the school I attended as a kid). Her preschool is not very divers though, racially or economically and I feel like people talk about some of the schools like you say that they are "bad" and really mean that lots of brown kids go there. It makes me really really uncomfortable. I wish her preschool was more diverse but I ironically chose it bc it's one of the least expensive due to parents having to participate (which once dentally means it lots of families with Sahm and high earner dads). We are solidly middle class and I feel pretty poor next to some of these families.

[kandrze1]

Sept 9, 2016 15:03:47 GMT -5 PatBenatar said:

Sept 9, 2016 14:57:50 GMT -5 kandrze1 said:

E went to a school in MV. I think a lot of the issue in our area is that the first ring suburbs are becoming more diverse and some people equate that to the schools going down hill. I had a friend recently tell me they were moving out of WS (I went to WSW) when they were ready to have kids because the schools were getting "worse". As far as I know CC and WS are still academically strong and offer their student lots of great opportunities. It's ridiculous.

Yes exactly this.  I went to MV and hear the same "concerns" about that district too.  I didn't realize people were also saying similar things about WS

Mostly about WS west.

[fusion]

One reason (among many) I don't want to send the kids to our neighborhood public school is the utter lack of diversity. Looking at the demographic breakdown compared to our city and our state is especially enlightening. One of the charter schools initiatives is putting it in a lower income area in the county in order to attract a more diverse population, both in regards to race and income. They could have easily chosen to build close to the Dell-ionaires and reaped the money from those deep pockets (several charters have done just that), but they are deliberately not. And although our neighborhood school scores high on all assessments, I've also had a friend pull her children for intense and relentless bullying.

[rjamz]

I've been thinking about diversity in school a lot. Yesterday in the car Jamie said (out of nowhere) "people have different skin colors, but all the kids at my school are peach" (around MLK day they did a unit on skin color).

Well, yes. All of your friends at school are "peach." See, he goes to a Jewish school, and always will. And as a people, Jews are predominantly white (shout out to the awesomest Jew of color - Daveed Diggs). So he will be surrounded by white peers. And then on the playground, since we live in a predominantly white neighborhood, most of the kids are white.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but this has been on my mind

[Deleted]

Wow that is such a sad story I knew NYC area was having major issues (as I imagine everywhere is) with rich white people moving into neighborhoods and doing stuff like this, along with pricing out the families that lived there before. I didn't even consider the impact it would have on the schools in the area until reading this.

I feel like we live in a bubble of white privilege, like the entire Northern CO area is so so white and mainly wealthy so I have no clue how to best raise my kids in our location.

Up until recently I did not know parents could donate to schools for improved equipment/books/etc, I thought 100% of everything came from state funding, and then we sit here and wonder why our schools aren't equal.

[mmmomof2]

Sept 9, 2016 15:50:53 GMT -5 @lindy said:

Up until recently I did not know parents could donate to schools for improved equipment/books/etc, I thought 100% of everything came from state funding, and then we sit here and wonder why our schools aren't equal.

When you find out how little your school district will fund at your kids school you open your checkbook. I don't think it's necessarily wrong. There are also Title 1 schools that do get increased funding. 

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2016 16:15:27 GMT -5 mmmomof2 said:

Sept 9, 2016 15:50:53 GMT -5 @lindy said:

Up until recently I did not know parents could donate to schools for improved equipment/books/etc, I thought 100% of everything came from state funding, and then we sit here and wonder why our schools aren't equal.

When you find out how little your school district will fund at your kids school you open your checkbook. I don't think it's necessarily wrong. There are also Title 1 schools that do get increased funding. 

I don't think it's wrong for parents to donate. I do think we should have a government that funds all schools appropriately so they don't need donations.  It's hard to get that passed though when parents with money can just donate and make only their schools better.

[PatBenatar]

Sept 9, 2016 16:15:27 GMT -5 mmmomof2 said:

Sept 9, 2016 15:50:53 GMT -5 @lindy said:

Up until recently I did not know parents could donate to schools for improved equipment/books/etc, I thought 100% of everything came from state funding, and then we sit here and wonder why our schools aren't equal.

When you find out how little your school district will fund at your kids school you open your checkbook. I don't think it's necessarily wrong. There are also Title 1 schools that do get increased funding. 

Sure you will if you can. Some families don't have the extra income to donate. Their children should still have access to the same education as more financially well off families

[katfco]

I'm so frustrated with all of this, not only as a teacher, but also a parent. Looking at those pictures, and knowing what my school looks like, and what my school last year looked like angers me. Knowing how nice many of the suburban schools are, and how those are considered the "good" schools because of test scores and skin pigmentation.

[imimahoney]

I went NYC public schools for most of my school career and while there was most certainly diverse communities represented, it was for the most part a very white and Jewish experience. I know we lived there because those were the "good" schools in the "good" neighborhoods but it was so so segregated.

It's hard because now we live in a small town in a sea of small towns and while there are cities near by with diversity, those places are out of our budget and too far from our jobs.

Ari will go to our neighborhood school and then our towns middle and high school which I imagine has limited diversity. We do participate in METCO, which bring in Boston residents who wish to attend schools outside of the city, but there still isn't much.

[fusion]

Sept 9, 2016 15:50:53 GMT -5 @lindy said:

Wow that is such a sad story I knew NYC area was having major issues (as I imagine everywhere is) with rich white people moving into neighborhoods and doing stuff like this, along with pricing out the families that lived there before. I didn't even consider the impact it would have on the schools in the area until reading this.

I feel like we live in a bubble of white privilege, like the entire Northern CO area is so so white and mainly wealthy so I have no clue how to best raise my kids in our location.

Up until recently I did not know parents could donate to schools for improved equipment/books/etc, I thought 100% of everything came from state funding, and then we sit here and wonder why our schools aren't equal.

Yeah it's crazy. I'm trying to fund the outdoor areas for the charter and had a client of mine today say "oh you just need to tap into the Dell parents and the company will 100% match their donations". At my neighborhood school they did this and got $80,000 dollars raised just from donations + matching. I told him that we were targeting a lower income population and I doubt we'll have many parents with deep pockets that work at these tech companies. We'll have to make it up mainly with grants that are difficult to obtain. 

[thedahliharpa]

It's a really worthwhile read. I was blown away by the types of people they got to come out to that board meeting.

I feel like by currently sending H to a private school I am part of the problem. Our public schools are 10's ,and affluent, and I find myself feeling the need to justify our "why" for many reasons.

[jg183]

In my experience a lot of the instruction is stronger in "bad" schools. The good schools don't try new research bc what they did is still getting high test scores

[vthokie]

Sept 9, 2016 22:01:35 GMT -5 jg183 said:

In my experience a lot of the instruction is stronger in "bad" schools. The good schools don't try new research bc what they did is still getting high test scores

Yes. Also, parents tend to play a large (too large IMO) roll in student placement and strong arming teachers in the "good" schools in my district. We have the most diverse school in the district. Super high end and super low. 14+ different languages, 15 feeder schools. The higher income kids have more support at home, but have often been coddled and pushed along an inappropriate path for the sake of appearance, and struggle as a result.
We aren't zoned for my school, but I will bring the kids there because we have to with our schedule. Plus, I honestly thinks it's the best educationally and socially for them to be exposed to what the world is really like. The decision has been which of the 2 close elementary schools we will try to transfer to. The one we hope to get her in only won out because I know teachers there and the their teaching philosophies are more aligned with what I want for my kids.

[dbe100408]

We live in a very rural area. I do feel we are part of the problem with our public school, since we send our kids to private school. Our district is absurdly small, and Hs sisters kids would be there, and it's just a conflict I chose to avoid. H attended the school when he was in elementary and does not want the kids to attend there.

[The Foozzler]

I have so much I could say on this subject, but I found this article informative and incredibly heartbreaking. It is a great read. I did student teaching elementary school in both of these districts. To say the inequality was evident is a gross understatement.

www.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/nyregion/in-connecticut-a-wealth-gap-divides-neighboring-schools.html

[laurack]

Sept 12, 2016 21:11:27 GMT -5 The Foozzler said:

I have so much I could say on this subject, but I found this article informative and incredibly heartbreaking. It is a great read. I did student teaching elementary school in both of these districts. To say the inequality was evident is a gross understatement.

www.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/nyregion/in-connecticut-a-wealth-gap-divides-neighboring-schools.html

This is heartbreaking these kids don't even have a chance.

[fusion]

wow, so coincidentally a new plan came out today that redraws the lines that define each school, and my part of the neighborhood is now planned for the "worst" middle school in the district (low income, low test scores, mostly minority) after being at the "best" (almost all white, yadda yadda). People are PISSED, it's absurd. Some quotes "I REFUSE for my child to go there" "We need to band together and fight this" "there is NO WAY I will allow this" etc. My husband is calling them out on their classist, racist bullshit and I'm rather proud of him. He was told "well then send your kid to a low income school, I won't allow it for mine". Well actually we will be, specifically to get away from this horrific mindset. There are other reasons we are going the charter route, but the emphasis that my school is making on diversity is a large draw. Makes me want to move away. The schools should have never been drawn with these types of lines to begin with, I'm glad they are shaking it up to more accurately represent the district at large instead of isolating kids in a bubble (both "good" and "bad") within the school district.

[chirpchirp]

This article popped up in my newsfeed today: michiganradio.org/post/school-choice-metro-detroit-s-new-white-flight

I think the title is a bit misleading, as white flight has been a big Detroit issue for a long time...it does seem to be increasing in areas though, which is so troubling to see.