Let's talk the GOP stance on immigration

[ttt]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread, so I'll post this here.

I finally found the GOP's official platform on immigration. It is tucked away in their platform document and not a featured issue. Here's the text:

The greatest asset of the American economy is the American worker. Just as immigrant labor helped build our country in the past, today’s legal immigrants are making vital contributions in every aspect of our national life. Their industry and commitment to American values strengthens our economy, enriches our culture, and enables us to better understand and more effectively compete with the rest of the world. Illegal immigration undermines those benefits and affects U.S. workers. In an age of terrorism, drug cartels, human trafficking, and criminal gangs, the presence of millions of unidentified persons in this country poses grave risks to the safety and the sovereignty of the United States. Our highest priority, therefore, is to secure the rule of law both at our borders and at ports of entry.
We recognize that for most of those seeking entry into this country, the lack of respect for the rule of law in their homelands has meant economic exploitation and political oppression by corrupt elites. In this country, the rule of law guarantees equal treatment to every individual, including more than one million immigrants to whom we grant permanent residence every year. That is why we oppose any form of amnesty for those who, by intentionally violating the law, disadvantage those who have obeyed it. Granting amnesty only rewards and encourages more law breaking. We support the mandatory use of the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (S.A.V.E.) program – an internet-based system that verifies the lawful presence of applicants – prior to the granting of any State or federal government entitlements or IRS refunds. We insist upon enforcement at the workplace through verification systems so that jobs can be available to all legal workers. Use of the E-verify program – an internet-based system that verifies the employment authorization and identity of employees – must be made mandatory nationwide. State enforcement efforts in the workplace must be welcomed, not attacked. When Americans need jobs, it is absolutely essential that we protect them from illegal labor in the workplace. In addition, it is why we demand tough penalties for those who practice identity theft, deal in fraudulent documents, and traffic in human beings. It is why we support Republican legislation to give the Department of Homeland Security long-term detention authority to keep dangerous but undeportable aliens off our streets, expedite expulsion of criminal aliens, and make gang membership a deportable offense.
The current Administration’s approach to immigration has undermined the rule of law at every turn. It has lessened work-site enforcement – and even allows the illegal aliens it does uncover to walk down the street to the next employer – and challenged legitimate State efforts to keep communities safe, suing them for trying to enforce the law when the federal government refuses to do so. It has created a backdoor amnesty program unrecognized in law, granting worker authorization to illegal aliens, and shown little regard for the life-and-death situations facing the men and women of the border patrol.
Perhaps worst of all, the current Administration has failed to enforce the legal means for workers or employers who want to operate within the law. In contrast, a Republican Administration and Congress will partner with local governments through cooperative enforcement agreements in Section 287g of the Immigration and Nationality Act to make communities safer for all and will consider, in light of both current needs and historic practice, the utility of a legal and reliable source of foreign labor where needed through a new guest worker program. We will create humane procedures to encourage illegal aliens to return home voluntarily, while enforcing the law against those who overstay their visas.
State efforts to reduce illegal immigration must be encouraged, not attacked. The pending Department of Justice lawsuits against Arizona, Alabama, South Carolina, and Utah must be dismissed immediately. The double-layered fencing on the border that was enacted by Congress in 2006, but never completed, must finally be built. In order to restore the rule of law, federal funding should be denied to sanctuary cities that violate federal law and endanger their own citizens, and federal funding should be denied to universities that provide in-state tuition rates to illegal aliens, in open defiance of federal law.
We are grateful to the thousands of new immigrants, many of them not yet citizens, who are serving in the Armed Forces. Their patriotism should encourage us all to embrace the newcomers legally among us, assist their journey to full citizenship, and help their communities avoid isolation from the mainstream of society. To that end, while we encourage the retention and transmission of heritage tongues, we support English as the nation’s official language, a unifying force essential for the educational and economic advancement of – not only immigrant communities – but also our nation as a whole.

To summarize:

1. No amnesty for anyone, ever

2. Force businesses to use the e-verify program

3. Allow indefinite detention without trial of illegal immigrants who haven't committed any crimes (US Constitution and 4th amendment, meh)

4. Deport all the illegal immigrants currently here and then allow other, different immigrants to come here for a guest worker program

5. Build a fence (where the trillions of dollars for the fence are coming from is not specified)

6. No illegal immigrants should be allowed into college

7. Make English the official language of the US

[teflep]

Can you post a link? I am trying to find the college part, and the fence part also, and am not having luck

[teflep]

To be fair, mx, speaking English is in the DNC platform as well:
www.democrats.org/issues/immigration_reform
Undocumented workers who are in good standing must admit that they broke the law, pay taxes and a penalty, learn English, and get right with the law before they can get in line to earn their citizenship.

So odd to me

[ttt]

Here's the link:

www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_Reforming/#Item11

[teflep]

Thanks, for whatever reason, I was sucking on the google

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 18:55:59 GMT -5 @mx said:

Wait. Their platform on immigration says nothing about immigration that is legal?

No wonder our economy is f'd. Highly skilled immigrants disproportionately drive successful start ups and innovation in several sectors of our economy.

Also we're going to have to tell H's grandparents that English as the official language made it in again. That's basically their litmus test for whether they will bother showing up, as Hispanic Rs it tends to keep them home

It mentions legal immigration a couple times. The only thing it really says about legal immigration is 1. that they want a guest worker program and 2. yay legal immigrants in the military.

Nothing about reforming the system to make it easier for people to come here legally or fixing some of the really screwed up things in the system.

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 19:02:20 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

I lean VERY far right on the immigration issue and i will say that one of the things that bothers me the most about illegal immigration is the "line cutting" aspect of it. I realize that I should not use Starbuck's coffee line metaphors to describe the strifes of people journeying here from third world countries, but there is an element of dishonestly and cheating that really, really bothers me.

That said, I do not support "the fence", I do not support denying access to universities, and I certainly don't allow indefinite detention. AND I definitely don't support the "show me your papers" laws. Let's just get our Hitler reference out the way up front here.

I am conservative enough on this topic, that I do think children born of people who are not in this country legally should not be granted citizenship by birth. I think this is one topic that most liberals will try to take make me surrender my liberal card over, but I can't help it. I subscribe to the believe that illegal labor by illegal immigrants drives down salaries for American workers and has changed the ready availability of summer jobs for high school and college kids. I would also support making English the official US language. It's already the national language and considering that learning English is already a prerequisite for becoming a US citizen, I don't really see what the big deal on that front is.

I think the non-English speakers whose families were living in the US before the US became a country would find this a bit off-putting.

I do find it telling that if you ask legal immigrants about how they feel about the 'line cutting' aspect, very, very few of them will say that this bothers them. At least that's been my experience.

[ttt]

Think about this again, what is the benefit to making English the official language of the US? What is the goal of doing this? It will cost some money, I'm thinking - what are the benefits that merit the cost?

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 19:09:09 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 8, 2012 19:04:38 GMT -5 ttt said:

I think the non-English speakers whose families were living in the US before the US became a country would find this a bit off-putting.

I do find it telling that if you ask legal immigrants about how they feel about the 'line cutting' aspect, very, very few of them will say that this bothers them. At least that's been my experience.

Actually, my experience with legal immigrants has been the exact opposite. The ones I have met feel like they have done what was required of them and often it required some hard work and dedication and others "cheated." Anecdotes.

I guess I don't understand why English-only laws would apply to NA. I am no expert on Indian Tribal laws - the adoption stuff is hard enough to understand. But I wouldn't think that the US gov't could dictate what language was the official language on reservations.

I'm not talking about Native Americans. I'm talking about, for example, Spanish speakers in New Mexico who lived there before it became part of the United States.

ETA: or heck, what about the Amish? I know they weren't here before it became the US, but aren't they Americans too?

At any rate, I don't really understand what benefit there would be to having an official language.

[marie427]

Even though it's very broad, I don't like "Learn English" being in the DNC platform either. English isn't going away in this country. Let's put that to rest right now, America.

I'll have to do more research on this, but I'd like to see if either party has elaborated on the special status of Cuban immigrants. That shit needs to be updated. It's not the 1960s anymore. I'd like to see more consistency in terms of immigration laws and policies. The only people I support getting some sort of special treatment are highly-skilled immigrants (engineers, doctors, etc.) for the reason mx mentioned, with no country of origin given priority over another.

[teflep]

Sept 8, 2012 19:04:38 GMT -5 ttt said:

[.

I do find it telling that if you ask legal immigrants about how they feel about the 'line cutting' aspect, very, very few of them will say that this bothers them. At least that's been my experience.

I think that is not true of all. I work with a large number of immigrant families and this is vented about. A lot. I guess it varies.

I am also not a fan of detentions or fences, I am ok with the university aspect, but am on the fence about instate tuition. If they can prove residents,taxes, etc....I am fine for sure. Though, I believe that I show md defines this in our law.

[marie427]

Sept 8, 2012 19:08:30 GMT -5 @mx said:

SBP--related to summer jobs, do you know about J visa workers? We bring in people on "student" visas to take all of the jobs at resorts, amusement parks, etc. They do a lot of seasonal stuff, but they've also been used as factory labor.

I really think the J visa issue should be a unity horse. These people are not students and they are not studying. They are taking jobs that presumably someone in this country could do (no one in PA wants to work at the Hershey plant?), and employers prefer them because they don't have to pay FICA. On top of it, many of these "students" are highly misled about what they will be doing, shoved into crappy motels 4 persons to a room, have their passports confiscated by the "agency" running the visa program on contract to DOS and have their minimum wage pay docked for "rent" and "cultural activities" that never materialize. They are generally upper middle class kids from developing countries with university diplomas. They did not plan to be working in factories, they expected a "cultural exchange" which is not at all what they get. It's a total sham, and I don't get why no one gives shit!

I could have sworn I remember reading an NYT article about this and wondering WTF this is happening. I will happily get on the bandwagon for no more J visas.

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 19:20:19 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

France has an official language, shit Holland has gotten downright draconian with their immigration policies, including language requirements and no one's suggesting they're a bunch of racist brown-people haters.

Actually, they kind of are. Especially the Dutch - they are notorious for anti-brown people laws and movements.

[teflep]

Yeah, Europe is not the bastion of progress and acceptance.

[teflep]

Sept 8, 2012 19:29:56 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 8, 2012 19:24:52 GMT -5 teflep said:

Yeah, Europe is not the bastion of progress and acceptance.

That seems to depend on what issue we're talking about - which may be simply a reflection of the reality of Europe. But I've never heard France's almost pathological obsession with their language referred to as racist.

I meant towards race relations. Not every county, of course, but there are so many stories of racism, anti-immigrant, etc stories.

[marie427]

I look at it like this. Immigrants already know that they will benefit greatly if they learn English. I just think it's unnecessary to spell it out. But okay, if we keep that language in the DNC platform, "learn English" is very broad. How much English should they learn? Enough to get by? Enough to be able to interpret Shakespeare? Enough to make medical or legal documents perfectly clear?

I also don't think making it the official language of the US will improve fluency among immigrants. SBP, yYou bring up very legimitate logistical reasons for making English the official language. This might be flameworthy, but I believe that many, if not most people who support English being the official language aren't supportive of that because of logistics.

[ttt]

Most European countries also have an official religion, but we don't, and for a very good reason.

I just don't really see much of a benefit to the concept of an official language, and I agree with marie that the majority of people who are supporting it are supporting it out of thinly veiled racism more than anything else. Although I don't think we should have an official language, the idea of it doesn't offend me. But the reasons behind the GOP's support of it do.

[marie427]

SBP, what kind of hospital paperwork are you talking about? Everything? I struggle with English-only when it comes to medical emergencies.

[marie427]

Totally agree that they need to shut up about a fence that won't deter anyone.

I also think preventing illegal immigrants from attending college is a terrible idea.

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 19:41:33 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 8, 2012 19:37:20 GMT -5 ttt said:

Most European countries also have an official religion, but we don't, and for a very good reason.

I just don't really see much of a benefit to the concept of an official language, and I agree with marie that the majority of people who are supporting it are supporting it out of thinly veiled racism more than anything else. Although I don't think we should have an official language, the idea of it doesn't offend me. But the reasons behind the GOP's support of it do.

Because of your last sentence, I think you and I actually agree on this topic except that you're offended enough by the racism to not want English to be the official language, and I'm encouraged enough by the streamlining of forms, contracts, etc... that I'm willing to ignore the racism.

I think you're right. And really, the English-language issue is like #29320958 on the list of priorities for this country right now, IMO.

I honestly don't know what the solution is to the immigration problem. I don't know enough about immigration law to know how to fix the system. But I do know enough to know that it is seriously f'ed up and needs to be fixed by people smarter and more knowlegable than I am.

As far as illegal immigration, I don't think that your average illegal immigrant is a bad person. I certainly can't sit here in my comfortable home with a full refrigerator and criticize the mother who walks for miles through the godforsaken desert for the opportunity to clean American toilets for $3 an hour and give her children a better life. But I also know that sympathy isn't the best way to make public policy, and I do realize that it can have a negative effect on wages here in the US. So I don't know what the solution is. But I know that it isn't a $3 trillion, environment-killing fence that won't even keep people out anyway.

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 19:49:27 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

They need to get over the idea of building a fence.
It's not going to deter anyone, and it will be a huge waste of money.

They'll get over the idea of building a fence when the contractors stop salivating at the idea of getting their hands on that government money to build it.

[teflep]

Sept 8, 2012 19:59:41 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 8, 2012 19:53:26 GMT -5 marie427 said:

Totally agree that they need to shut up about a fence that won't deter anyone.

I also think preventing illegal immigrants from attending college is a terrible idea.

I don't even understand why preventing illegal immigrants from attending college makes sense. We allow "foreigners" to attend our universities all the time. This to me is a more blatant example of the Right be comfortable with the cheap labor aspect, but wanting to limit the social mobility.

my guess is more of the instate tuition and taking those spots from others (many schools go for out f staters for more money.

[msmerymac]

Sept 8, 2012 18:57:29 GMT -5 teflep said:

To be fair, mx, speaking English is in the DNC platform as well:
www.democrats.org/issues/immigration_reform
Undocumented workers who are in good standing must admit that they broke the law, pay taxes and a penalty, learn English, and get right with the law before they can get in line to earn their citizenship.

So odd to me

I think that's a requirement to pass the citizenship test, though. A basic understanding of English. So really, it's just helping them move toward legal residency/citizenship.

[marie427]

On another note - how do we resolve the issue of farm job vacancies created by illegal immigrants fleeing places like Alabama after stricter immigration laws were implemented? Not every illegal immigrant left Alabama, but when jobs opened up, there weren't a lot of non-immigrants that applied, and the ones who did apply and were hired didn't last very long doing this back-breaking work. Plus, people want cheap produce. I can't figure out a solution for this, and apparently neither can anyone else who's smarter than me that are supposed to be figuring this shit out lol.

[msmerymac]

Sept 8, 2012 19:53:26 GMT -5 marie427 said:

Totally agree that they need to shut up about a fence that won't deter anyone.

I also think preventing illegal immigrants from attending college is a terrible idea.

Nah. Keeps them uneducated and more pliable. Factory fodder! You know, cause manufacturing is coming back to the US. :/

[marie427]

Okay, I just re-read the official platform and it didn't say no college for illegal immigrants, just no in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. My bad. I don't know if I have an actual opinion of that. People wouldn't be barred from attending college but out-of-state tuition is often significantly higher than in-state tuition. I see both sides of the coin here.

[teflep]

Sept 8, 2012 20:20:26 GMT -5 marie427 said:

Okay, I just re-read the official platform and it didn't say no college for illegal immigrants, just no in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. My bad. I don't know if I have an actual opinion of that. People wouldn't be barred from attending college but out-of-state tuition is often significantly higher than in-state tuition. I see both sides of the coin here.

That's what dream acts usually call for-instate tuition.

[pamela]

Sept 8, 2012 20:13:17 GMT -5 marie427 said:

On another note - how do we resolve the issue of farm job vacancies created by illegal immigrants fleeing places like Alabama after stricter immigration laws were implemented? Not every illegal immigrant left Alabama, but when jobs opened up, there weren't a lot of non-immigrants that applied, and the ones who did apply and were hired didn't last very long doing this back-breaking work. Plus, people want cheap produce. I can't figure out a solution for this, and apparently neither can anyone else who's smarter than me that are supposed to be figuring this shit out lol.

it's going to take several years for this to work itself out. Such mismatches between the work and pay that's historically been offered don't change overnight.

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 20:40:29 GMT -5 pamela said:

Sept 8, 2012 20:13:17 GMT -5 marie427 said:

On another note - how do we resolve the issue of farm job vacancies created by illegal immigrants fleeing places like Alabama after stricter immigration laws were implemented? Not every illegal immigrant left Alabama, but when jobs opened up, there weren't a lot of non-immigrants that applied, and the ones who did apply and were hired didn't last very long doing this back-breaking work. Plus, people want cheap produce. I can't figure out a solution for this, and apparently neither can anyone else who's smarter than me that are supposed to be figuring this shit out lol.

it's going to take several years for this to work itself out. Such mismatches between the work and pay that's historically been offered don't change overnight.

So what happens to the farms in the meantime? If you own a farm and your labor suddenly disappears and there is nobody to replace them for years, what are you supposed to do in the meantime to pay your bills?

And what happens when they finally do find that labor but have to pay them $12 an hour and now strawberries cost $18 a pint?

[teflep]

Sept 8, 2012 21:26:55 GMT -5 ttt said:

Sept 8, 2012 20:40:29 GMT -5 pamela said:

it's going to take several years for this to work itself out. Such mismatches between the work and pay that's historically been offered don't change overnight.

So what happens to the farms in the meantime? If you own a farm and your labor suddenly disappears and there is nobody to replace them for years, what are you supposed to do in the meantime to pay your bills?

And what happens when they finally do find that labor but have to pay them $12 an hour and now strawberries cost $18 a pint?

As much as I rail against farm subsidies, this is the one area that they should factor into...to keep food affordable while paying a living wage to workers. This is not an excuse, imo, at least not a valid one.