Let's talk drug laws.

[studytime45]

Brought to you by this:

blogs.lawyers.com/2012/09/respected-federal-judge-calls-for-legalizing-marijuana/

Respected Federal Judge Calls for Legalizing Marijuana

Richard A. Posner, a widely respected federal judge, called for the elimination of criminal laws against marijuana in a September 6 lecture at Elmhurst College in Illinois.

Judge Posner, a member of the influential United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago, is an intellectual giant who is the most-cited judge in America. His call for legalization is significant because Posner is considered a legal conservative.

“I don’t think we should have a fraction of the drug laws that we have. I think it’s really absurd to be criminalizing possession or use or distribution of marijuana,” he said. “I can’t see any difference between that and cigarettes.” The audience gave him a round of applause.

In his introduction of Posner, Judge William J. Bauer, his colleague on the 7th Circuit, called him “a genius.” Posner has written hundreds of court opinions and 40 books on many topics. Law schools have classes devoted to his legal rulings. He attended Yale College, was valedictorian when he graduated from Harvard Law School and started his legal career as a clerk for the Supreme Court of the United States.

“But also I’m skeptical about the other drug laws,” Judge Posner added. “The notion of using the criminal law as the primary means of dealing with a problem of addiction, of misuse, of ingesting dangerous drugs — I don’t think that’s sensible at all.”

He said drug laws are “responsible for a high percentage of our prisoners. And these punishments are often very, very severe. It’s all very expensive.” Judge Posner has pointed out that legalizing marijuana and other drugs would save federal, state and local governments $41.3 billion per year.

He said drug laws are, “…a waste of a lot of high quality legal minds, and it’s also a waste of people’s lives who could be as least moderately productive with having to spend year after year in prison. That is a serious problem.”

The entire speech can be found on YouTube.

What is your opinion? Should marijuana and/or other illegal drugs be legalized? Decriminalized? Can we compare marijuana to cigarettes like Judge Posner suggests?

[teflep]

Marijuana? Yes. I really only think it isn't because a) morals (and that is laughable...maybe the tale of it being a gateway drug?) and b) not easily taxed.

Other drugs? No, but I also think the war on drugs is steeped in racism and leads to many issues (full jails, guns, etc)

[StrawberryBlondie]

I have a soft spot for Judge Posner.

Drug laws aren't a huge issue for me. From a judicial resources standpoint, I think it makes sense to at least de-criminalize. However, personally, I don't really care either way.

[MrsAxilla]

Sept 8, 2012 20:27:12 GMT -5 teflep said:

Marijuana? Yes. I really only think it isn't because a) morals (and that is laughable...maybe the tale of it being a gateway drug?) and b) not easily taxed.

Other drugs? No, but I also think the war on drugs is steeped in racism and leads to many issues (full jails, guns, etc)

Nah, you can tax it easily enough. Look at Colorado. I think it's more because it's something people can grow themselves, for free. The Rx drug lobby is very powerful, and they don't want anyone producing their own drugs. Which is stupid, of course. I can grow my own fruits and veggies, why not my own medicine?

[GailGoldie]

Sept 8, 2012 20:35:13 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Sept 8, 2012 20:27:12 GMT -5 teflep said:

Marijuana? Yes. I really only think it isn't because a) morals (and that is laughable...maybe the tale of it being a gateway drug?) and b) not easily taxed.

Other drugs? No, but I also think the war on drugs is steeped in racism and leads to many issues (full jails, guns, etc)

Nah, you can tax it easily enough. Look at Colorado. I think it's more because it's something people can grow themselves, for free. The Rx drug lobby is very powerful, and they don't want anyone producing their own drugs. Which is stupid, of course. I can grow my own fruits and veggies, why not my own medicine?

I agree with this.

I'm all for legal pot. I have never even smoked it- but I am married to a recovered alcoholic - and knowing how much damage alcohol did to him years ago, and it's legal, makes me say "fuck it- just make it legal".

I don't know about other drugs though - so many are truly fucked up and can damage you so fast... I don't want it being so easy for my kids to get their hands on it before their brains are developed enough to really understand the risks --- at least keep it harder to get.

My brother grew tons of pot in his closet... my parents had no idea until my dad started noticing how high the electric bill was for a few months - started snooping around - and found the sun lamps in my brother's closet... made him give away all the plants (my parents were hippies and smoked pot- but as grownups did not want it growing in their house b/c of the risks to them).

I grew up with that going on in my house- and still had no desire to try it (I drank, but not much)... so I don't think pot being around makes everyone bad - far from it.

[msmerymac]

I pretty much love everything he said, there.

[msmerymac]

Sept 8, 2012 20:42:37 GMT -5 @mx said:

Last night I read this horrifying article in the New Yorker about the use of minor children and other young people with minor drug charges as informers to catch major, violent drug dealers. It was so disturbing and I should not have read it before falling asleep. I wonder if it's online...I'll look.

ETA, here is the link: m.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/09/03/120903fa_fact_stillman

And New York has pretty much the most draconian drug laws in the US. 2 ounces of pretty much anything, including cannabis = 15 years to life.

[teflep]

Sept 8, 2012 20:35:13 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Sept 8, 2012 20:27:12 GMT -5 teflep said:

Marijuana? Yes. I really only think it isn't because a) morals (and that is laughable...maybe the tale of it being a gateway drug?) and b) not easily taxed.

Other drugs? No, but I also think the war on drugs is steeped in racism and leads to many issues (full jails, guns, etc)

Nah, you can tax it easily enough. Look at Colorado. I think it's more because it's something people can grow themselves, for free. The Rx drug lobby is very powerful, and they don't want anyone producing their own drugs. Which is stupid, of course. I can grow my own fruits and veggies, why not my own medicine?

The issue with taxing is that, per the IRS (now this was 11 so it may have changed, but I havent heard this) is they can't deduct expenses...even just employee pay. It was for the dispensary, and that is the issue, I believe.
And, of course, this:
Way back in 1982, Congress enacted tax code Section 280E to deny all tax deductions to an individual trafficking in controlled substances that are prohibited under federal law or under the law of the state in which the taxpayer conducts business. Marijuana falls under the federal Controlled Substances Act and therefore is within the scope of the deduction disallowance.
(dont think this has changed either---taxing issue and, with Congress being inefficient at best, it is unlikely to change).

[MrsAxilla]

Sept 8, 2012 20:57:37 GMT -5 teflep said:

Sept 8, 2012 20:35:13 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Nah, you can tax it easily enough. Look at Colorado. I think it's more because it's something people can grow themselves, for free. The Rx drug lobby is very powerful, and they don't want anyone producing their own drugs. Which is stupid, of course. I can grow my own fruits and veggies, why not my own medicine?

The issue with taxing is that, per the IRS (now this was 11 so it may have changed, but I havent heard this) is they can't deduct expenses...even just employee pay. It was for the dispensary, and that is the issue, I believe.
And, of course, this:
Way back in 1982, Congress enacted tax code Section 280E to deny all tax deductions to an individual trafficking in controlled substances that are prohibited under federal law or under the law of the state in which the taxpayer conducts business. Marijuana falls under the federal Controlled Substances Act and therefore is within the scope of the deduction disallowance.
(dont think this has changed either---taxing issue and, with Congress being inefficient at best, it is unlikely to change).

I wasn't aware of that. I was thinking more about the sales tax aspect. In 2011, CO collected more than $5 million in sales taxes from the MMJ dispensaries. If straight-up legalization passes in November, they're estimating between $20 and $80 million a year (we have a lot of pot smokers here - lol!). I haven't seen numbers on the savings on criminal prosecutions, but considering you now get a ticket and pay a fine rather than being thrown into jail, I'll go out on a limb and guess that its probably significant. The Feds should totally get on board.

[teflep]

TO be honest, that seems really low for revenue. What is the rate?

[MrsAxilla]

Sept 8, 2012 21:36:04 GMT -5 teflep said:

TO be honest, that seems really low for revenue. What is the rate?

Depends. In my unincorporated corner of the county, it's 5.5%.

[ttt]

Even if we don't tax it a penny, the billions we would save on not arresting, prosecuting, and jailing people for marijuana-related offenses would be so worth it.

But then, that means that the people who run private prisons and local law enforcement agencies that get huge drug grants from the feds and the DEA would no longer have their cash cow. So hmm I wonder why it hasn't happened...

[sam20]

How do they handle issues like smoking and driving? I would feel uncomfortable with someone being high and getting behind the wheel of a car. But it's not like alcohol where you can just do a breathalizer on the spot. I also think it would be hard for an officer to tell the difference from a joint and a cigarette when a car goes by. Or is this really a non-issue and I'm over thinking it?

[MrsAxilla]

Sept 8, 2012 22:29:42 GMT -5 sam20 said:

How do they handle issues like smoking and driving? I would feel uncomfortable with someone being high and getting behind the wheel of a car. But it's not like alcohol where you can just do a breathalizer on the spot. I also think it would be hard for an officer to tell the difference from a joint and a cigarette when a car goes by. Or is this really a non-issue and I'm over thinking it?

You're not allowed to smoke in public, and your car counts. Also, a joint is more of a party thing, KWIM? We have the killer kind bud out here and a whole joint will knock you on your ass!

Also, Tef - keep in mind there aren't that many people in CO, so we don't need quite as much money as bigger states.

[MrsAxilla]

Sept 8, 2012 22:29:42 GMT -5 sam20 said:

How do they handle issues like smoking and driving? I would feel uncomfortable with someone being high and getting behind the wheel of a car. But it's not like alcohol where you can just do a breathalizer on the spot. I also think it would be hard for an officer to tell the difference from a joint and a cigarette when a car goes by. Or is this really a non-issue and I'm over thinking it?

Oh, and don't make me research on a Saturday night, but studies have indicated that stoned drivers actually show an abundance of caution because they are overly aware of their decreased reaction time. I'm not arguing that is perfectly fine by any means, but I'd rather be on the road with someone who's high rather than buzzed, let alone drunk. It is still illegal to drive under the influence, but there isn't a reliable way to test for that, other than actually seeing a driver hit the pipe. MJ stays in your system a while, so you could still fail a drug test even if you last smoked a few weeks ago.

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 22:29:42 GMT -5 sam20 said:

How do they handle issues like smoking and driving? I would feel uncomfortable with someone being high and getting behind the wheel of a car. But it's not like alcohol where you can just do a breathalizer on the spot. I also think it would be hard for an officer to tell the difference from a joint and a cigarette when a car goes by. Or is this really a non-issue and I'm over thinking it?

That is a concern of mine. But I would think that if there were a demand for an instant marijuana testing like there is for alcohol detecting breathalyzers, someone would come up with it. Or we could pour 5% of the billions we spent on marijuana law enforcement into coming up with such a test.

[cookiemdough]

Sept 8, 2012 22:20:40 GMT -5 ttt said:

Even if we don't tax it a penny, the billions we would save on not arresting, prosecuting, and jailing people for marijuana-related offenses would be so worth it.

But then, that means that the people who run private prisons and local law enforcement agencies that get huge drug grants from the feds and the DEA would no longer have their cash cow. So hmm I wonder why it hasn't happened...

Would legalizing marijuana change that though? It seems to me picking this one drug to legalize will just make the discrepancies along racial lines in drug sentencing even more stark. Unless I am missing something the majority of black offenders in jail aren't there for pot are they?

[overture]

Sept 8, 2012 20:46:01 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

I don't know about other drugs though - so many are truly fucked up and can damage you so fast... I don't want it being so easy for my kids to get their hands on it before their brains are developed enough to really understand the risks --- at least keep it harder to get.

I'll try to find the source, but I read that a study showed that teenagers have an easier time obtaining illegal drugs than cigarettes or alcohol.

edit: I think it was just marijuana, not all illegal drugs.

In general, more legal = more regulated. A drug dealer does not have a vested interest in keeping drugs out of the hands of minors. Retailers, who could be "shopped" by undercover police and lose their licenses, do have that incentive.

Another edit: And I think for the most part, legality is not influencing the vast majority of teens who don't use drugs. They're not using drugs for other reasons. I don't think there are very many teenagers out there thinking "one day pot will be legal and I can smoke all I want."

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2012 23:29:39 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Sept 8, 2012 22:20:40 GMT -5 ttt said:

Even if we don't tax it a penny, the billions we would save on not arresting, prosecuting, and jailing people for marijuana-related offenses would be so worth it.

But then, that means that the people who run private prisons and local law enforcement agencies that get huge drug grants from the feds and the DEA would no longer have their cash cow. So hmm I wonder why it hasn't happened...

Would legalizing marijuana change that though? It seems to me picking this one drug to legalize will just make the discrepancies along racial lines in drug sentencing even more stark. Unless I am missing something the majority of black offenders in jail aren't there for pot are they?

I don't know but I did find this:
www.nytimes.com/2008/04/30/nyregion/30about.html


A study released Tuesday reported that between 1998 and 2007, the police arrested 374,900 people whose most serious crime was the lowest-level misdemeanor marijuana offense.

That is more than eight times the number of arrests on those same charges between 1988 and 1997, when 45,300 people were picked up for having a small amount of pot.

Nearly everyone involved in this wave of marijuana arrests is male: 90 percent were men, although national studies show that men and women use pot in roughly equal rates.

And 83 percent of those charged in these cases were black or Latino, according to the study. Blacks accounted for 52 percent of the arrests, twice their share of the city’s population. Whites, who are about 35 percent of the population, were only 15 percent of those charged — even though federal surveys show that whites are more likely than blacks or Latinos to use pot.

[ttt]

And

www.precinctreporter.com/community/inland-empire/186-marijuana-arrest-stats-according-to-race

With an overall marijuana incarceration rate that has doubled since 1991, at last national count in 2007 whites were arrested at 195 per 100,000 while blacks are at 598 per 100,000 for possession of marijuana. In general, youths age15 to 24 made up over half of all possession arrests.

“Blacks account for 12% of the population, 14% of annual marijuana users, and 31% of marijuana possession arrests,” the report states. “While these are national survey figures it is unlikely that local variances in the prevalence of marijuana use among blacks and whites account for the tremendous disparities in arrest rates.”

[decemberwedding07]

I agree with him completely. I've thought before that it's ridiculous that people who are addicted to meth get thrown in prison for buying it/possessing it. They are addicted to a powerful drug. More powerful than alcohol. And yet nobody would ever say it was logical or humane to put an alcoholic in jail for buying/possessing alcohol. Why can we agree one is wrong, but not the other? And why does the bootstraps mentality seem to apply to chemical addiction?

[decemberwedding07]

Sept 9, 2012 0:43:17 GMT -5 ttt said:

And

www.precinctreporter.com/community/inland-empire/186-marijuana-arrest-stats-according-to-race

With an overall marijuana incarceration rate that has doubled since 1991, at last national count in 2007 whites were arrested at 195 per 100,000 while blacks are at 598 per 100,000 for possession of marijuana. In general, youths age15 to 24 made up over half of all possession arrests.

“Blacks account for 12% of the population, 14% of annual marijuana users, and 31% of marijuana possession arrests,” the report states. “While these are national survey figures it is unlikely that local variances in the prevalence of marijuana use among blacks and whites account for the tremendous disparities in arrest rates.”

I believe this. Black males are more likely to be harassed by police officers. I don't think this is just a stereotype--the data regarding arrest rates among black males indicates it's a reality. White males aren't caught as often because the police don't go after them as often.

Anecdote alert! My college was in a bad part of town. Every now and then, the police would set up at an intersection and pull over everyone who didn't stop for a full couple f seconds at the stop sign. Every time this happened at night, I'd get waved on an wished a good night when I rolled down my window. ONCE they asked to see my license and insurance, but they just looked at it an didn't even run it.

[315bride]

Sept 8, 2012 20:57:10 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sept 8, 2012 20:42:37 GMT -5 @mx said:

Last night I read this horrifying article in the New Yorker about the use of minor children and other young people with minor drug charges as informers to catch major, violent drug dealers. It was so disturbing and I should not have read it before falling asleep. I wonder if it's online...I'll look.

ETA, here is the link: m.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/09/03/120903fa_fact_stillman

And New York has pretty much the most draconian drug laws in the US. 2 ounces of pretty much anything, including cannabis = 15 years to life.

Not true. In NY, MJ is not considered a controlled substance and the laws are different. Two oz or less is a misdemeanor. Two ounces is more than most people would ever carry. I don't even think there's real jail time associated with that kind of amount although that might vary in different counties. In NYC, at least, most get a ticket and get this dismissal based on good behavior for a year. NY DA's are pretty soft on MJ only offenses and it's moving in the direction to to even not issue tickets for the 2 oz or less amounts.

As for the original question, I absolutely am for legalizing marijuana. Medical marijuana is the saving grace for a friend of mine in kidney failure. And most people I know who smoke weed are pretty law-abiding people otherwise.