All the Ugly and Wonderful Things - book club discussion

[ufcasey]

Today is the day for our first book club discussion! The book picked for this month was "All the Ugly and Wonderful Things" by Bryn Greenwood.

So, what were your thoughts on this book? Below are some questions just to help get you thinking if you have a hard time figuring out what you want to say about the book. You definitely don't have to answer any of them!


Things to potentially consider:

What do you think is the cause behind Wavy's inability to eat food in front of others and her general unwillingness to talk?

Do you think Kellen is a pedophile, is just mentally or emotionally stunted and therefore doesn't fully realize how inappropriate his behavior is, or is he relatively normal but modern day society just looks down on such a large age gap?

Why do you think Wavy attached herself to Kellen even though she presumably is intelligent considering she went to college for astrophysics?

Did Wavy's aunt do the right thing in persuing prosecution of Kellen for his relationship with Wavy?

How did your personal feelings about the relationship between Kellen and Wavy impact your feelings about the book? Can you like a book that has distasteful subject matter, whether it be fiction or non-fiction?

Did you feel the chapters from some of the more minor secondary characters were impactful or were unnecessary?

[abs]

Yes! I have been waiting for this day.

Okay. My number one question here is how in the heck did SO many people see what was happening and just not say anything? Specifically, Wavy's aunt. She knew that something was off yet kept sending Wavy back each and every time? She didn't want to get involved until she knew something sexual was going on? REALLY?!? There were red flags everywhere. I cannot believe that in real life someone wouldn't intervene. A teacher never called CPS? I just don't see it. Then Wavy's father was just allowed to swoop in and take her? He couldn't prove he had a safe home for her. I don't buy this part at all. But maybe I should.

That said I did enjoy the book more than I thought I would. I knew the subject matter would be hard for me and it definitely had an icky vibe but it was well written. Kellen was definitely a pedophile. He knew what he was doing was wrong and tried to stop it several times. However I also think he was mentally stunted. The book made several references to his facial features and I am wondering if perhaps he was born with FAS? I think there was something going on. For some reason he reminded me a lot of Lenny from Mice and Men.

Poor Wavy had to grow up so fast. It broke my heart when she was talking about her brother and saying he was almost three and would be able to take care of himself after that. I mean, what? I don't think she was ever attracted to Kellen but was attracted to the fact that he cared about her. Basically no one else did. Overtime that morphed into something inappropriate but she never had a real relationship modeled for her.

It was an interesting read for sure.

[pandora89]

This book was so hard for me to review. I liked it, it was an interesting read, but it was so icky and I feel like I shouldn't have liked it?

Kellen was definitely a pedophile, I agree that there was something else going on but regardless, pedophile.

I definitely agree that Wavy's aunt should have pursued prosecution, I can see how it maybe not everyone would agree with that when taking Wavy's perspective into consideration but in the end he took advantage of her. He took advantage of a child, he manipulated her and then had sexual relations with her.

I agree, I don't understand how her aunt kept sending her back into that situation, she had to know there was something going on (regardless of the relationship with Kellan, Wavy's prents were completely unstable). I think she wanted to but didn't because she knew her husband would have not been happy with that? Her husband sucked, what an awful person.

[rainbowchip]

I agree that this book was so hard to review.

I completely go back and forth with Kellen. He gave Wavy the stability that she desperately needed but he also knew that what he was doing was wrong.

I think he was emotionally stunted in some way and I think that Wavy was a little more mature so that lowered the age gap a bit in my eyes. But she was still a child and he was still an adult!

As far as Brenda, I think she had a delicate balance she needed to maintain. She wanted to do what was best for her family (husband and daughters) and that was her first priority. He husband did end up divorcing her due to taking Wavy and Donal in.

So this story obviously could not have taken place in the present day. I wonder if back in the 70s and 80s, there wasn't as big of a push for child welfare.

[monkeyfeet]

I thought the book was ok. I know it was only 350 pages, but it seemed to really drag on so I think some of the secondary characters were unnecessary.

I also go back and forth on kellen. I do believe he was mentally stunted, but as someone else said he provided more for her than her family, maybe even her aunt (which is probably an unpopular opinion).

Once wavy reached legal age, I really was rooting for them. The judge was an interesting spin. Do you think she should have kept the no contact order if you thought kellan was a pedophile?

Someone mentioned that the teachers didn't say anything either. I can't remember where it took place. But I have some cousins in po-dunk towns and that seems to be the norm, for them anyway. I don't want to label the whole town but they are babies having babies and all live on welfare/disability even though I think they could work...

[travella]

I agree that this was a difficult book to rate and read. It was interesting, but I felt dirty reading it and was glad when it was over and I didn't have to pick it back up.

I think all the characters in this book were messed up in some sense so that helped explain a lot of the whys for me that everyone else seemed to have. I didn't even like Wavy's teacher, the party scene ruined my opinion of her. I hated the Wavy/Kellen relationship. I didn't even like it once they were of age. I think a child going through that messed up of a relationship at such a young age would continue to have messed beliefs in relationships, so I didn't trust her mind set at the older age either. It didn't help that she didn't seem to grow up in the book. She still acted and looked like a child years later.

I did feel like Kellen was one of the only people to give her stability, which is sad, but the whole relationship was toxic to me and there was nothing that could fix it.

[ufcasey]

Alright, so this book - I don't even know where to start!

The characters: was there even one character in this whole book that was normal/good? Wavy has issues with eating/talking, Kellen is a borderline pedophile, Wavy's parents are druggies who should never have had children, the teacher is sketchy, the biker chick girlfriends can't stand up for themselves nevermind for the children of the woman they see as their competition, the roommate is a psycho who pretends an acquaintance who died was her best friend and has her own issues with choosing the wrong men, and Aunt Brenda has good intentions but she doesn't stand up to her own husband for the sake of the welfare of her niece/nephew and when she finally does get a backbone it's too late because she is then taking away the only stable thing in Wavy's life at that point - Kellen.

Kellen was the hardest character for me to deal with. He seems to KNOW it's wrong to do anything sexual with Wavy. Yet at the same time, he is the only person who gives a shit about her. No one else even remotely seems to care for her or prioritize her the way that he does, so he should be the hero of the book - except he absolutely is not. Because how can he be the hero when he is making out and more with a very young teenage girl and he is much older? Yet, at the end of the book he is almost a father figure for Wavy's brother and is married to Wavy so he really did love her. It's hard for me to wrap my head around it.

I think Wavy must have been sexually abused by her father, or her mother was somehow jealous of her husband giving attention to her and therefore brainwashed her into being so obsessive about her mouth (talking/eating). It just seemed strange, because she's quite smart - she takes care of her brother from a very young age, she goes on to study astrophysics, she cares for her roommate, and yet even as an adult she still can't talk/eat normally. I can understand her attachment to Kellen though - he was the one good thing in her life, so no one else could come close to him in her esteem.

In general books like this make me uncomfortable - where there isn't much redeeming about it, so how can you like it? Also, how can you recommend it - "Oh hey, you should read this book, it's really all kinds of fucked up and makes you feel a little dirty reading it, not sure what it says about me to recommend someone actually read this." LOL!  If it was non-fiction, then at least you can distance yourself from it and say "well this is an unfortunate truth that we need to read about so we can prevent it in the future and help victims", but when it's fiction, it's just - well, why would you want to read this?

[pandora89]

Jan 25, 2017 11:50:07 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

Alright, so this book - I don't even know where to start!

In general books like this make me uncomfortable - where there isn't much redeeming about it, so how can you like it? Also, how can you recommend it - "Oh hey, you should read this book, it's really all kinds of fucked up and makes you feel a little dirty reading it, not sure what it says about me to recommend someone actually read this." LOL!  If it was non-fiction, then at least you can distance yourself from it and say "well this is an unfortunate truth that we need to read about so we can prevent it in the future and help victims", but when it's fiction, it's just - well, why would you want to read this?

This, this, this.

You said what I was thinking but wasn't able to articulate.

I enjoyed it but WHY? Everything was so messed up (for lack of a better word), so really, why?

I don't think I have ever felt this way about a book.

[anglashly]

Jan 25, 2017 11:50:07 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

Alright, so this book - I don't even know where to start!

The characters: was there even one character in this whole book that was normal/good? Wavy has issues with eating/talking, Kellen is a borderline pedophile, Wavy's parents are druggies who should never have had children, the teacher is sketchy, the biker chick girlfriends can't stand up for themselves nevermind for the children of the woman they see as their competition, the roommate is a psycho who pretends an acquaintance who died was her best friend and has her own issues with choosing the wrong men, and Aunt Brenda has good intentions but she doesn't stand up to her own husband for the sake of the welfare of her niece/nephew and when she finally does get a backbone it's too late because she is then taking away the only stable thing in Wavy's life at that point - Kellen.

Kellen was the hardest character for me to deal with. He seems to KNOW it's wrong to do anything sexual with Wavy. Yet at the same time, he is the only person who gives a shit about her. No one else even remotely seems to care for her or prioritize her the way that he does, so he should be the hero of the book - except he absolutely is not. Because how can he be the hero when he is making out and more with a very young teenage girl and he is much older? Yet, at the end of the book he is almost a father figure for Wavy's brother and is married to Wavy so he really did love her. It's hard for me to wrap my head around it.

I think Wavy must have been sexually abused by her father, or her mother was somehow jealous of her husband giving attention to her and therefore brainwashed her into being so obsessive about her mouth (talking/eating). It just seemed strange, because she's quite smart - she takes care of her brother from a very young age, she goes on to study astrophysics, she cares for her roommate, and yet even as an adult she still can't talk/eat normally. I can understand her attachment to Kellen though - he was the one good thing in her life, so no one else could come close to him in her esteem.

In general books like this make me uncomfortable - where there isn't much redeeming about it, so how can you like it? Also, how can you recommend it - "Oh hey, you should read this book, it's really all kinds of fucked up and makes you feel a little dirty reading it, not sure what it says about me to recommend someone actually read this." LOL!  If it was non-fiction, then at least you can distance yourself from it and say "well this is an unfortunate truth that we need to read about so we can prevent it in the future and help victims", but when it's fiction, it's just - well, why would you want to read this?

I agree with all of this. I got this with the not hugging/touching in the beginning too.

[ufcasey]

Jan 25, 2017 12:08:39 GMT -5 pandora89 said:

Jan 25, 2017 11:50:07 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

Alright, so this book - I don't even know where to start!

In general books like this make me uncomfortable - where there isn't much redeeming about it, so how can you like it? Also, how can you recommend it - "Oh hey, you should read this book, it's really all kinds of fucked up and makes you feel a little dirty reading it, not sure what it says about me to recommend someone actually read this." LOL!  If it was non-fiction, then at least you can distance yourself from it and say "well this is an unfortunate truth that we need to read about so we can prevent it in the future and help victims", but when it's fiction, it's just - well, why would you want to read this?

This, this, this.

You said what I was thinking but wasn't able to articulate.

I enjoyed it but WHY? Everything was so messed up (for lack of a better word), so really, why?

I don't think I have ever felt this way about a book.

Yeah I really can't think of another book I have read that made me this uncomfortable to read. Perhaps 'White Oleander', but even that still doesn't come close for me to this book.

[ufcasey]

Here are some more questions/talking points for anyone else who wants to join in (please still join in! even if it's just to say "ditto" to previous comments!):

- Who had it worse, Wavy or her brother? She had to deal with the loss of Kellen but he had to stay with the man who murdered his mother and who he thought at the time was his father.

- Was Wavy's mom a sympathetic character at all with her OCD and drug issues along with a husband who cheated on her and her eventual death? Or did her complete lack of appropriate parenting, bad example, and prior jail time prevent you from having any sympathy for her?

- If Wavy had met Kellen when she was 17 or older, would you feel completely different about their relationship?

- How would have Wavy's life been different if her Grandmother hadn't died or if she had been able to stay with her Aunt instead of going back with her mother after the Grandmother's death? Do you think she would have been able to lead a more normal life or would she have always been a bit broken?

- Why did Kellen initially feel such an attachment to Wavy? She was very young when he first met her in the field when he wiped out his bike. Was it originally just a feeling of wanting to protect a child or was it always something more than that?

[aurora]

I'm having to type from my phone for the moment so will come back later to say more, but I agree with the general consensus that this was a difficult book. I actual read it pretty quickly over Christmas, but the child abuse! I had a lot of trouble with Kellen. I can't believe so many reviews call it a love story. And I say that even knowing Wavy wanted nothing more than to be with Kellen at the end when she was an adult. I think it is a story about how abuse (that she suffered from her parents) can be truly devastating with life-long impacts. And I don't even think Kellen was trying to hurt her. He likely had a shitty childhood that permanently altered him, too. But man, he knew it was wrong and he did it, anyway.

[snshne322]

Jan 25, 2017 16:18:33 GMT -5 aurora said:

I'm having to type from my phone for the moment so will come back later to say more, but I agree with the general consensus that this was a difficult book. I actual read it pretty quickly over Christmas, but the child abuse! I had a lot of trouble with Kellen. I can't believe so many reviews call it a love story. And I say that even knowing Wavy wanted nothing more than to be with Kellen at the end when she was an adult. I think it is a story about how abuse (that she suffered from her parents) can be truly devastating with life-long impacts. And I don't even think Kellen was trying to hurt her. He likely had a shitty childhood that permanently altered him, too. But man, he knew it was wrong and he did it, anyway.

I had a lot of trouble with this too.  Going in I thought it was going to be a heartwarming tale about a friendship between a young girl and a man that eventually turns into a relationship after 15-20 years.  It was most decidedly not that.

[snshne322]

Looking back, I'm not sure why I rated it the 3 stars that I did. I feel like I want to go back and change it to a 2. It was an uncomfortable book and I don't think that all uncomfortable books are bad, but this was so hard to read. I would have abandoned it halfway if I wasn't looking forward to participating in this discussion.

What was everyone else's rating? I'd be interested to see if our ratings agree with Goodreads. Though, as ufcasey knows, Goodreads ratings are easy to manipulate. Especially with Goodread Best Book nominations.

I'll come back later tonight when I can go into more depth.

[travella]

Jan 25, 2017 16:32:56 GMT -5 snshne322 said:

Looking back, I'm not sure why I rated it the 3 stars that I did. I feel like I want to go back and change it to a 2. It was an uncomfortable book and I don't think that all uncomfortable books are bad, but this was so hard to read. I would have abandoned it halfway if I wasn't looking forward to participating in this discussion.

What was everyone else's rating? I'd be interested to see if our ratings agree with Goodreads. Though, as ufcasey knows, Goodreads ratings are easy to manipulate. Especially with Goodread Best Book nominations.

I'll come back later tonight when I can go into more depth.

I rated it a three as well and had the exact same feelings about my rating. I wanted to rate it a two, but the book invoked emotion so I felt it deserved the extra star even if that emotion wasn't good and I wish I could scrub the book from my memory.

[aurora]

I want to add that I don't actually regret reading it, as difficult as it was. I like books that make me wrestle.

[rainbowchip]

Was Wavy's mom a sympathetic character at all with her OCD and drug issues along with a husband who cheated on her and her eventual death? Or did her complete lack of appropriate parenting, bad example, and prior jail time prevent you from having any sympathy for her?

I think there were underlying mental health issues with Val. I kind of got a bipolar vibe.
Her husband was an abusive asshole which didn't help with her mental state.

She needed help.

[monkeyfeet]

So, I've thought some more about Kellan and just looked up pedophile...I know, hopefully no one does a history search on my computer, but the first definition is someone that is attracted to children. I keep going back to when Wavy finds him and the woman he is living with asks if she's the only one. I guess in my mind, I think of a pedophile as someone who preys on kids (plural). I know what he did wasn't right, but I'm just having a hard time faulting him. I almost think in both of their mental impairment, they "got" each other? I mean she didn't talk for anyone else, but it was like they didn't need to use words to communicate.

I still know I'd act in the same manner as Brenda did once she had proof, but I'm just having a hard time putting Kellan in a "bad" box.

[ufcasey]

Jan 25, 2017 16:29:18 GMT -5 snshne322 said:

Jan 25, 2017 16:18:33 GMT -5 aurora said:

I'm having to type from my phone for the moment so will come back later to say more, but I agree with the general consensus that this was a difficult book. I actual read it pretty quickly over Christmas, but the child abuse! I had a lot of trouble with Kellen. I can't believe so many reviews call it a love story. And I say that even knowing Wavy wanted nothing more than to be with Kellen at the end when she was an adult. I think it is a story about how abuse (that she suffered from her parents) can be truly devastating with life-long impacts. And I don't even think Kellen was trying to hurt her. He likely had a shitty childhood that permanently altered him, too. But man, he knew it was wrong and he did it, anyway.

I had a lot of trouble with this too.  Going in I thought it was going to be a heartwarming tale about a friendship between a young girl and a man that eventually turns into a relationship after 15-20 years.  It was most decidedly not that.

Same. I was thinking it would be one of those things where he would care for her and then as she got (much) older it would become something different. Thirteen was way too young for me. And Wavy seemed to not be aware of where boundaries in their relationship should be, because she was too young to understand what they should be in the first place and had no role models for it, and Kellen didn't seem able to maintain boundaries he knew should be there, because he was kind of desperate for love and affection himself. Kind of along what monkeyfeet, said, it's hard to put him in a 'bad' box because it's not like he was lusting after children, or even lusting over Wavy when she was young, young girl. And he truly was the ONLY person who cared for her that was regularly in her life. But if I had walked in on them seemingly having sex on a desk, I would be calling the police too.

[ufcasey]

I rated this book 3 stars, because it was well written and it was provoking in both thoughts and emotions for me. But at the same time, I have absolutely zero desire to re-read this book, recommend this book, or read another book that is anything like this one. So on an 'enjoyment' scale, it would be a 1 or a 2. But I don't 'enjoy' books about the Holocaust either, and yet I gave 'Rena's Promise' 5 stars and I consistently recommend others read it. But that's non-fiction, so that kind of goes back to what I said earlier. I think I just don't want to read disturbing things that are fiction. It's almost easier to deal with if it's non-fiction in some ways (though obviously you feel for the real people in those cases). But at the same time - I read fiction books that have murders or rape in it, so...why am I bothered so much more about this? Maybe I'm just not desensitized to it because it's not a usual story line in tv shows or movies? Or maybe because I am a mother (albeit to much younger children)? I can't really seem to say.

I personally felt really bad for Wavy's brother. He had to hang out with his mother's murderer. He was so messed up by it that he landed in juvie. His sister found happiness with Kellen, but where's his happy ending? Granted at least he can eat/talk like a normal person and his father didn't make him stay with his crazy mother, not that his father's drug den and biker chicks was much better.

[minzy]

I don't have much new to add... I too was pretty squicked out reading this. I found myself wondering at what point the line was officially crossed... I think for me it was when he snuck over and spent the night and then peed out of the window, despite the fact that nothing actually happened that time. I found myself really rooting against them being together after he got out of prison. I hoped for something else for her, I guess.

The premise is one I won't forget for awhile. It was a reminder that things aren't always black and white. It also made me wonder how prevalent those types of relationships are.

[rootbeerfloat]

Late, but I agree with many of the previous comments. It was icky to read the scenes when their relationship became physical, but I also found myself rooting for adult Wavy to get what she wanted (i.e. to be with Kellen). I don't usually enjoy books about child abuse and/or shitty parents, so it exceeded my low expectations. I gave it a 4 (though 3.5* is probably more accurate) because I liked the writing, even the random characters, and it ended with Wavy (and her brother) in a somewhat stable place.

I probably should've had more sympathy for her mother, but I hated her.

[monkeyfeet]

Another thought about Kellan popped in my head. A lot of people said he knew what he was doing was wrong, but I'm not so sure. I mean, he thought he could marry her at 14?!
And when he was released from prison, he didn't track her down. He assumed what he did was wrong (Perhaps only) when she didn't show up at his parole, but he didn't realize she didn't know when it was.

I don't know, yeah, it's messed up and I agree with everyone else, not a book I'd recommend.

DO you find it interesting that it even made the finalist list?

[abs]

So I rated the book 4 stars. Probably more of a 3.5. I agree that it's not a book I would recommend to others but it did make me think and did invoke strong feelings. No way will I ever re-read it though.

I felt bad for Wavy's brother, too. I think he had it even worse than Wavy and that's saying something. Now her mother? Nope. I had zero sympathy for her. All I could think was "you are a MOTHER. Take your kids somewhere safe already!".

I'm not really sure why Kellen was attracted to Wavy. I think at first he wanted to provide her a bit of the stability he never got growing up. But neither had a good role model for relationships and it got inappropriate very quickly. I know in the end we were supposed to be rooting for their relationship but I never did.

[anglashly]

Jan 25, 2017 15:39:03 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

Jan 25, 2017 12:08:39 GMT -5 pandora89 said:

This, this, this.

You said what I was thinking but wasn't able to articulate.

I enjoyed it but WHY? Everything was so messed up (for lack of a better word), so really, why?

I don't think I have ever felt this way about a book.

Yeah I really can't think of another book I have read that made me this uncomfortable to read. Perhaps 'White Oleander', but even that still doesn't come close for me to this book.

We need to Talk about Kevin made me so uncomfortable yet I couldn't stop reading

[anglashly]

Jan 25, 2017 22:33:14 GMT -5 minzy said:

I don't have much new to add... I too was pretty squicked out reading this. I found myself wondering at what point the line was officially crossed... I think for me it was when he snuck over and spent the night and then peed out of the window, despite the fact that nothing actually happened that time. I found myself really rooting against them being together after he got out of prison. I hoped for something else for her, I guess.

The premise is one I won't forget for awhile. It was a reminder that things aren't always black and white. It also made me wonder how prevalent those types of relationships are.

I thought of this too. I bet it happens a lot more than we realize. Especially in families with parents and substance abuse problems or drug dealing. So many people going in and out of houses where children live.

[anglashly]

I don't think I would feel any different if she was 17 when it started because he still was a "father" figure or an authority type figure in her world and 17 is still young despite how mature she seemed to be.

[labellabarv]

Man, I'm such a bad poster. I agree with the majority of you with how uncomfortable the book was. There are a few issues that I still question. While I know her parents weren't really parents, how was the dad so okay with letting Wavy get married at 14? Even if you don't care about the girl wouldn't you question how appropriate that would be? The age gap is very strange to me too, had they met when they were older it may not have been such an issue (I have several friends who are married to a spouse 10+ years older) but of course they didn't meet until they were adults. I tried to imagine them meeting when one was a child and it all just seems so bizarre. I will say that I think Wavy at the end was truly happy, or as happy as she would ever know. She never knew what was normal or correct and Kellan and her brother were the only love she ever knew. I think that would be the happiest/content she'd ever feel with both of them there. From an outsiders/readers perspective this seems almost like Stockholm Syndrome since Kellan was the adult and could be the one to take care of her and love her without turning it into a romantic love. When I had started the book, I thought Kellan would take on a fatherly role and that would've been a completely acceptable role for him. I guess what I struggle with is by the end of the book you almost feel okay with their relationship, but it's still not generally okay.

[rainbowchip]

Does anyone have thoughts about Wavy not eating in front of people and even eating out of the garbage when food was available in other places?
I didn't see a connection between her mom calling her dirty and her not eating.

[ufcasey]

Jan 27, 2017 8:51:04 GMT -5 rainbowchip said:

Does anyone have thoughts about Wavy not eating in front of people and even eating out of the garbage when food was available in other places?
I didn't see a connection between her mom calling her dirty and her not eating.

I think her father or someone else made her do oral sex when she was younger and that's why she and her mother are so obsessed with her not putting "dirty" things in her mouth and why she feels uncomfortable eating in front of others. But why she eats out of the trash and steals food - I don't know? It seems like the whole intent was just to keep the people she was living with from knowing she was eating food, for some unknown reason. The not eating/not talking thing really bothered me in this book.