Let's talk about the Antifa

[pixy0stix]

Start here: www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/what-trump-gets-wrong-about-antifa/537048/


I'm really using this as a learning tool, since I honestly didn't know much about them before other than they punched Nazis. I figure it's good to give us all a base to fight the rhetoric that has cropped up.

[mrsbro]

Thank you. I had that on my list to do today at lunch but have not had a chance.

[pixy0stix]

More (goes into the history) - www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/08/16/who-are-the-antifa/

[mrssandro]

Thanks for sharing. I was wondering where the reference to alt left was coming from.

[sparrowsong]

Simple thinkers who view everything as black/white good/bad seem to think everything has an equal opposite. Alt-left seems to be this made up thing that is everything bad about the alt-right but worse, because it's the liberal version. It's all the violence and hate and prejudice that conservatives don't want to own, made palatable by labeling it leftist and liberal and therefore condemnable.

[OscarQ]

Thank you so much! I just came in here looking for real info on Antifa and how to deal with "but both sides were violent". I'm circling back to read this but greatly appreciate this post.

[cvillern]

That was interesting.

I don't agree with everything Antifa stands for (mainly anarchy), nor do I agree with all their tactics, but they saved my friends life this weekend while the cops stood by and did nothing. There is so much to fight against right now, they don't make the list for me.

I like how the author says if you want to get rid of Antifa start with getting rid of what they are fighting against.

[mrsukyankee]

Thanks for sharing these resources. They definitely help explain a few things.

[atexan]

Thanks. I had literally never heard this term until this week.

[froggy76]

Thanks for posting. I had never heard of Antifa until this week.

[walterismydog]

Do you all remember SHARPs in the 90s? They may still be around for all I know. Similar groups, from what I understand. Some strong anarchist sects but ultimately fighting against the bad, so go at it.

This is based on my very limited knowledge. Also, my journalist friend who is awaiting trial I believe identifies with the antifa movement, though he may not be officially in their circle.

[BicycleBride]

I'm still confused about the organizational nature of antifa. I have been trying to figure it out for a couple of days and I appreciate the article giving a history. But is it an actual group with a name? Is it a collection of groups? Is it a general movement with no overarching groups?

[game blouses]

Thank you for opening the discussion. I hadn't heard this term until a few days ago - probably because I don't frequent conspiracy theory sites - so I'm glad that there is more information available on reputable sites. The Charlottesville white supremacist rally a call to violence and chaos, which is what the anti-fascists responded to, so I don't understand all this "but two sides!!" bullshit. The new-Nazis came armed to the teeth and prepared for battle. While I don't condone violence, I don't begrudge a force that is defending the rights of others to exist.

I saw a conservative Christian cousin of mine retweet a gleeful sentiment immediately after the murder of Heather Hayer: "If Antifa killed someone, maybe the media will finally pay attention." Then more speculation about whether the man driving the car was actually Antifa posing as a white supremacist. It is the most vile thing I can think of to want to use a death for political gain, so no, I do not see two sides of this.

[karinothing]

Aug 16, 2017 13:17:56 GMT -5 BicycleBride said:

I'm still confused about the organizational nature of antifa. I have been trying to figure it out for a couple of days and I appreciate the article giving a history. But is it an actual group with a name? Is it a collection of groups? Is it a general movement with no overarching groups?

I hung out with some of them as a kid, they were basically just a bunch of kids into punk music who occasionally go together to smash capitalism or racists. They aren't really an organized group.

[eponinepontmercy]

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

Here's a great article with some personal accounts of the events and what the antifa was doing.

[wawa]

Aug 16, 2017 13:17:56 GMT -5 BicycleBride said:

I'm still confused about the organizational nature of antifa. I have been trying to figure it out for a couple of days and I appreciate the article giving a history. But is it an actual group with a name? Is it a collection of groups? Is it a general movement with no overarching groups?

My understanding from the friends of friends who identify with these groups is that it's a mix of 2 and 3. The overarching antifa label is more of a movement than a group, but there are groups.

I wouldn't want to try to build a peaceful society with these people persay, but they're just fine with me for front line allies to fight like hell.

(I've met more than a few over the years. )

[andwhat]

I am reviving this thread. Someone posted this article on FB. Now I am taking it with a grain of salt because it is an opinion piece and it calls BLM anti-police, but is antifa anti-Jew?

www.jpost.com/Opinion/Column-One-Trump-and-the-Jews-502759

[MrsAxilla]

Aug 19, 2017 12:21:05 GMT -5 andwhat said:

I am reviving this thread. Someone posted this article on FB. Now I am taking it with a grain of salt because it is an opinion piece and it calls BLM anti-police, but is antifa anti-Jew?

www.jpost.com/Opinion/Column-One-Trump-and-the-Jews-502759

I'm not really sure what to think about this piece, but it's rhetoric was depressing.  Somehow it ended supporting trump.  And what is this?

The alleged “ties” of the likes of Trump aides Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka to white supremacists are the invention of The Forward newspaper, which has relentlessly libeled both men – and particularly Gorka – without ever producing a shred of evidence to back up its allegations.

Bannon and Gorka's ties to white supremacy are lies without a shred of evidence?  Clearly that's not true, so the author's claim that ALL of the "far left" (including BLM) actively excludes Jews without offering us any evidence of that rings equally false.

[MrsAxilla]

Well said, rvan0905.

[JLV]

Poof. That was a butt type. Sorry!

As for Antifa, I have been to a few rallies/marches with them and they have never started anything or caused harm. They were always right up front ready for action if necessary.

[MrsAxilla]

Aug 19, 2017 13:56:43 GMT -5 JLV said:

The lol you can trrtt

Okay, I've been wondering all day - what does this mean?

[mrhanky]

I was going to type up a response about how there is definitely a lot of anti-semetism on the left, but rvan0905 spoke of it so well, so I'll just ditto her (except I have no fear of going to protests as "I don't look Jewish," but I have had to hear/speak up regarding anti-Semitic talk I've heard there). And at the candlelight vigil I went to after Charlottesville, only one speaker even acknowledged the Jews were directly targeted and attacked, while there was much talk of Jesus loving all of us (which normally i can deal with, but seemed like a slap in the face to Jews given the context).

[Jalapeñomel]

Aug 16, 2017 12:16:16 GMT -5 froggy76 said:

Thanks for posting. I had never heard of Antifa until this week.

I was going to say this until WismyD posted about the SHARPS.

Aug 16, 2017 13:12:11 GMT -5 walterismydog said:

Do you all remember SHARPs in the 90s? They may still be around for all I know. Similar groups, from what I understand. Some strong anarchist sects but ultimately fighting against the bad, so go at it.

This is based on my very limited knowledge. Also, my journalist friend who is awaiting trial I believe identifies with the antifa movement, though he may not be officially in their circle.

I have heard of them. The ones I knew were super straight edge, punks.

[JLV]

Aug 19, 2017 23:53:41 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Aug 19, 2017 13:56:43 GMT -5 JLV said:

The lol you can trrtt

Okay, I've been wondering all day - what does this mean?

Oh jeeze , nothing at all. I didn't even know I posted this! Definitely a butt-type.

[1yeartogo]

I am a pacifist not an anarchist and believe the non-violence movements in the civil war were more impactful long term than counter violence. So, I don't agree with antifa. However, if the police are not protecting people (just like they didn't during civil rights movement) people will end up hurt as nep-nazi alt-right groups are largely perpetrators of hate violence.

I can understand why some people support Antifa for the protection they offer, but I believe in the long term non-violent counter protesting will make the must impact and change more minds/practices.

[iammalcolmx]

Antifa saved the lives of some of the non-violent members of Clergy and have helped the protect the Synagogue the police will not protect. They are on my good list.

[andwhat]

I have been thinking about this post all weekend and I have questions so I hope that there can be discussion and not a shutdown.

Aug 19, 2017 13:19:10 GMT -5 rvan0905 said:

Aug 19, 2017 12:21:05 GMT -5 andwhat said:

I am reviving this thread. Someone posted this article on FB. Now I am taking it with a grain of salt because it is an opinion piece and it calls BLM anti-police, but is antifa anti-Jew?

www.jpost.com/Opinion/Column-One-Trump-and-the-Jews-502759

This person is G-d damned nut.  Trump will never be good for the Jews.  He revels in the support he receives from white supremacists and to ignore that is to our peril.

Obama is not anti-semitic; he is EXCEPTIONALLY careful with his words.  I personally believe that he allowed his distaste for Bibi to cloud some of his interactions with Israel as an ally and that he was not as good of a friend to Israel as other past POTUSes, but I truly believe it came from both a frustration at the situation in the entire Middle East and the more right-wing polices that Israel has enacted over the last decade.  Israel is a Democrat's dream in many ways, with healthcare, water initiatives, gender equality, etc, but the surge of right wing/religious wing of the Israeli govt has been harmful to the US/Israel relationship and the relationship with its neighbors.  Israel can't crow about its gender equality when they ban women from praying with men at the Kotel.  Israel can't crow about making the desert bloom when withholding water from the Palestinians and grabbing their land through settlements.  Bibi's Israel will not make peace; his coalition isn't interested in the existence of a Palestinian state at all.  

However, many Jews in Israel and America alike feel that by making his dissatisfaction with Israel known, Obama weakened Israel in the eyes of the international community.  What he did in December was unforgivable; he allowed the UN to erase the Jewish claim to the Temple Mount ignoring all archeological and historical proof that Jerusalem was a Jewish holy site.  He acted like an absent parent instead of an ally, and punished Israel for Bibi's government.  To many, he wounded Israel irreparably, and damaged the US/Israel alliance.  

I know the feeling among many Jewish people is that Obama made the US less of an ally and that is bad. But from reading here it seems like Israel has not been living up to its parts of the deal. There has been advancements of settlements that seem like they were not solely out of trying to defend Israel. Even the Jewish posters here have been critical of the settlement advancement. Should the US remain and "impartial" ally to Israel in those given those circumstances. I feel like Obama felt that no the US shouldn't. Should the US/Obama administration not had dissatisfaction with Israel? I am sure Obama made his feelings known to Bibi/Israel and it felt (to me) that Israel still had an I am going to do what I want attitude. Now I know that is not in a vacuum. I know Israel was still under attack, so I definitely do not know the entire picture. But I feel like the Obama administration did not make decisions lightly. You say Obama punished Israel for Bibi's government, but doesn't Bibi speak for Israel as the Prime Minister. As much as I don't like it or agree, 45 speaks for the US right now, and I would expect other countries to take actions based on his words and the things that he does, not the history of the US and what past presidents have done. As much as I don't like it.

Now, all of what I just posted above is a generalization, and as you can imagine from our previous conversations, each topic within the Middle East conflict is beyond complicated.  However, for a long time, Americans in general have allowed themselves to separate their consciousness from the world's events.  That's why no one gives a shit about what is happening in Syria even after dead toddlers took over our televisions; why we never hear about terror attacks in countries that end in "stan", why we don't realize that 11,000 children die every year in India because they don't have access to toilets.   Hell, compared to Nice, Barcelona was basically ignored!

Nuance has been lost on the American public, if it ever existed.  So the fact that Israel has been supported through all of our presidencies since its creation has become a negative for those who desire anarchy.  There must be something nefarious at work if so many people have reached across the aisle in agreement of the protection of Israel.   These people don't trust he media, they don't trust elected officials, but they all believe the government is controlling us for its own purposes.  You can see how people with this viewpoint can easily fall into the pattern of behavior of believing that the cabal of Jews who run the world, now from Israel, need to be eradicated so that "true" freedom can prevail.

I agree with all the above. Also, in previous posts it seemed shocking to some Jewish posters that many people in the US did/do not know more about Jewish history. I don't find this surprising at all because all that is really focused on is schools is white, anglo-Saxon history. Black history gets a month and other than that there is slavery. If you get to WWII, you get Anne Frank. For most people I know, I don't even think Jewish people and anti-Semitism are even on their radar due to low populations of Jewish people in the immediate area and low information/interest. It is not some nefarious act, it is just when it comes to fighting injustice, they are focused on injustices pertaining to themselves. I think that is how most people are.

There is more active anti-Semitism on the left than on the right.  Its not because Jews became white or rich, even though there are many of us who benefit from those privileges.  The left loves an underdog, and the Palestinians are suffering horrifically.  There are plenty of people on the right who blindly benefit from their privilege thanks to white, Christian supremacy who don't hate Jews but just want us to stay in our own lanes.  To them, it crosses a line to go from "knowing" we are all going to Hell to actively trying to send us there early.  It is only on the fringes that the line is crossed and people feel in the moral high ground.  Killing Jews isn't on their agenda; they'd be fine if we all left and went to Israel to prep it for the rapture though!

On the left, look at the protest signs.  Jews are left out of almost all of them, even though we are the group targeted the most by hate groups.  If we are there we tend to be painted as the problem, and not the victims.  We are kicked out of progressive movements constantly, we are screamed at in the streets, our places of worship are vandalized constantly.  The foundation my family set up for my grandparents' Holocaust memorial had to have much more money added to it to deal with the graffiti clean up in Portland, ME.  I'm personally scared to go to any progressive marches or rallies with my family because I know I will encounter anti-Semitism.  

Who are these groups that you say are leaving out Jews? I have never attended a rally/protest. I know a previous post made mention of BLM being anti-Jew, but I don't know if that ever got cleared up because it seemed like two different groups. If it did, I missed it. But in general is it the responsibility of a group with a specific focus to include other marginalized groups? This is seriously a general question. I have debates with my brother about the mission of BLM as he thinks they are a joke because "they only show up when a cop kills a black person, but they aren't there when killings happen within the community." 1. That isn't entirely true, but 2. If it was why can't BLM have a focused goal? They shouldn't be a hinderance to other groups trying to stop hate, but does that need to be one of their expressed missions? 

Thank you for your detailed response. It was a lot to digest.