Not outgrowing reflexes

[waverly]

Anyone have experience with a child not outgrowing reflexes?   His specifically is the curling toes reflex when we touch the ball of his foot.  He is in PT for it.  I was just wondering if it is indicative of anything else?  DS is 7. 

When you google, of course it is a major problem according to Dr. Google, but the PT didn't say anything more about it just that she thought with exercises it would go away.  Pedi and Orthopedic doctors never saw it.  

I was just curious if I have to take it further later on or if it doesn't go away with PT.  Or even if it goes away with PT does it need to be investigated further with other doctors?  

[akafred]

It's the number one cause of all developmental delays...according to 21st century snake oil salesmen. It's funny this came up; I just got an earful on this last week. AFAICT DD doesn't actually have any. So there is that. But I'm sure I didn't try hard enough or did it wrong.

Feeling pissy and jaded today.

[waverly]

An OT I know just said it was a huge buzz area right now, so I suppose it could be the snake oil thing right now.

I thought it would be a result not a cause of a developmental delay?

I don't know how it could be at all your fault especially if she doesn't actually have any. Rough appointment?

We are doing regular PT anyway, so this is just one more exercise to do. Although OT friend said then you can't tell what helped, but keep doing it (PT and exercises for the reflex). But I guess I don't care what helped just that it does help, and it is obvious if his toes curl or not.

PT thought it was the cause of his stiff ankles but another problem he has is hamstrings, so stretching the hamstrings could loosen the ankles up.

Hmm sort of sounds like nothing to worry about right now? Or at least not until released from PT?

[akafred]

What I have been seeing is a panacea for all ills. Like Brain Balance Center type stuff. They'll charge you a fortune and essentially do PT/OT and cure all your kid's problems.

No appointment, I am just jaded by all the messaging out there lately. Try gluten free! (I did but it didn't help.) You must not have tried it long enough! (I did it for 6 weeks with no improvement.) You're supposed to eliminate casein too you moron. (Yeah we tried that also.) Then you must have let gluten or casein sneak into the diet somehow. You have to read all the labels. (Inread every label.) Try harder.

Sub gluten for primal reflexes for essential oils for Himalayan salt lamps. Doesn't matter. If you haven't tried it then you aren't trying hard enough and if you do try it you aren't doing it right.

Like I said, I am super pissy today.

[akafred]

P.S. I don't think there is any harm in having your PT/OT work on it. May even be something to it. I was just saying when I saw no sign of retained reflexes, someone will probably say I am doing it wrong. Sorry for the tangent.

[waverly]

I wrote this thing out and pro boards ate it. Basically I felt weirded out when my pedi suggested I go to one of those places for all day psych, OT and PT. I couldn't imagine the cost. It was an hour out of my way anyway. Pedi didn't examine him at all, just went straight to a referral, so I was like what are we referring for exactly?  Just based on my wording.  

That is why I restarted with the Orthopedic and opted just to do PT based on physical evidence from the Ortho exam. I went more with a rehab type place that is 10 min from home (they also provide services for kids).  PT is suggesting one exercise, so not overdone at all.  

Gluten free seems to be a scam unless that person has one of the diseases that gluten directly affects- auto immune or celiac for example. I am not super educated on this, just my opinion. I have no idea what casein is and yeah essential oils smell good but are not a cure for the most part.

[chickypoo]

I have that reflex. I found out in nursing school. Our teacher was like "um... that shouldn't happen" but that was it.

O has retained primitive reflexes, but he's younger. The way it was explained to me by someone that works with adults said that sometimes they just don't integrate. She said it's not really an issue as long as they don't do the movements that lead to the reflex. So I would think that it is more of a result of delays than anything.

[waverly]

Thanks chickypoo. I just wonder how he can really avoid it since it's the ball of his foot. I was thinking it gets activated when he walks and rides the bike. Having problems riding the bike prompted me to seek PT this time as I had been waiting to see if he catches up. Of course the other issues would hinder the bike as well (hips, ankles and hamstrings).

ETA- I just googled integration of reflexes and it took me to a brain balance place lol. I am guessing though his is a postural reflex and not a primitive reflex.

[chickypoo]

I'm sorry I read that wrong. I have the babinski.
But still, something that shouldn't be happening.

[waverly]

Oct 3, 2017 21:38:25 GMT -5 chickypoo said:

I'm sorry I read that wrong. I have the babinski.
But still, something that shouldn't be happening.

I can't remember the name she told me for the reflex anyway. 😀

[akafred]

Oct 3, 2017 21:35:58 GMT -5 waverly said:

ETA- I just googled integration of reflexes and it took me to a brain balance place lol. I am guessing though his is a postural reflex and not a primitive reflex.

And now you have gotten sucked into the vortex inwas talking about lol.

[waverly]

akafred, yup. But I have moved on. I guess I decided not a problem neurologically until a doctor or PT tells me I need to see a neurologist for sure.

[macchiatto]

I have no direct experience with this but I have MS myself and I'm always intrigued by different random things in my neurological exams and reports. I feel like I end up googling a different term or two every time (even after 16 years of these ), like "What's a Romberg sign?"

At any rate, I hope you're able to find a good answer to this and that PT takes care of it. <3

[waverly]

Bumping this. We have been in PT for 8 weeks now, maybe more, and his ankles are still really tight. She did mention orthotics as his inner arch/foot rolls inward. And he has an OT eval tomorrow. I just am not sure what to do on the ankles. PT is Thursday, so I can ask her more. It's just night and day pressing on his ankles versus DD's for example. His are so tight. I am not really seeing the reflex anymore, but that is probably because he is actively resisting it (whether he is supposed to or not, I am not sure- he just started doing it).

[toastie]

Nov 6, 2017 17:36:27 GMT -5 waverly said:

Bumping this. We have been in PT for 8 weeks now, maybe more, and his ankles are still really tight. She did mention orthotics as his inner arch/foot rolls inward. And he has an OT eval tomorrow. I just am not sure what to do on the ankles. PT is Thursday, so I can ask her more. It's just night and day pressing on his ankles versus DD's for example. His are so tight. I am not really seeing the reflex anymore, but that is probably because he is actively resisting it (whether he is supposed to or not, I am not sure- he just started doing it).

As in, it’s hard for him to get flat footed? Both of my boys have had shortened heel cords which makes it hard for them to move their feet out of the pointed position.  

We have done botox and serial casting. My oldest now walks flat footed and my youngest is getting there.  If your LO walks, start with orthotics. Especially articulated ones that will only allow his foot to flex past neutral in the positive to help lengthen those heel cords.

[waverly]

Hard to get flat footed, or even going side to side like if I try to rotate his ankle in circular motions and lots of resistance. He can walk, and we are pursuing orthotics but good to know that casting etc is a possibility.

So far the doctors have thrown out hypertonia or retained reflexes as possibilities. I will ask about the heel cord. And I know his hamstrings are tight which could tighten through the leg/ foot. I have braces for plantar fascitits so I could try them on him. Obviously they are bigger but he may fit because his feet are almost as big as mine.