Catalonia votes for independence. Spain imposes direct rule

[WOT?*]

www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/27/560357561/spains-prime-minister-asks-for-direct-rule-authority-over-catalonia

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/spain-to-impose-direct-rule-over-catalonia-after-region-declares-independence/ar-AAu7bAa?OCID=ansmsnnews11

[isabel]

The stories I've been hearing about this on NPR are nuts!

[madDawg228]

I find this so interesting. I don't know a lot (really anything) about Spanish politics. Is the Catalonia Independence movement funded/supported by the Kremlin, by any chance?

It seems that whenever there are any independence movements in Western nations, the Kremlin is behind it somehow... maybe I've been wearing my tin hat too long.

[bex]

Oct 27, 2017 11:28:28 GMT -5 madDawg228 said:

I find this so interesting. I don't know a lot (really anything) about Spanish politics. Is the Catalonia Independence movement funded/supported by the Kremlin, by any chance?

It seems that whenever there are any independence movements in Western nations, the Kremlin is behind it somehow... maybe I've been wearing my tin hat too long.

Doubtful. Maybe there's extra fuel coming from Russia now, but its something that's been around for a long time in some form or another.  I don't know about Russia's relationship with Spain but I imagine franco and Stalin were not buddies. Not sure what that means for today's relationship of course.

[Aloe Vera]

Oct 27, 2017 11:28:28 GMT -5 madDawg228 said:

I find this so interesting. I don't know a lot (really anything) about Spanish politics. Is the Catalonia Independence movement funded/supported by the Kremlin, by any chance?

It seems that whenever there are any independence movements in Western nations, the Kremlin is behind it somehow... maybe I've been wearing my tin hat too long.

El País believes so: elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_026442.html

[1confused1]

I keep reading this as California and then get very disappointed.

[bimbi284]

I asked my bro of many words how things are going just now via WhatsApp, and his response was, “helicopters.”

After pulling some teeth and giving him grief about his communication skills, he said it sounds like no one knows what they are doing, but likely Spain will be doing something to take over healthcare, education, police and any other govt accounts.

[JayhawkGirl]

MIL is there now - they arrived last weekend as this was being announced. When she booked this trip, I mentioned keeping an eye on the news for protests etc. She looked at me like I had three heads. Their first day’s plans were in fact derailed by protests.

[waverly]

They have a long history of being separatists. Them and the Basques. I don't know too much about it except the historical regional view.

[elenetxu]

Oct 27, 2017 11:01:52 GMT -5 isabel said:

The stories I've been hearing about this on NPR are nuts!

What are they saying?

[isabel]

Oct 27, 2017 13:29:52 GMT -5 elenetxu said:

Oct 27, 2017 11:01:52 GMT -5 isabel said:

The stories I've been hearing about this on NPR are nuts!

What are they saying?

Probably the same things as the OP's articles. I haven't read anything. But NPR has just been talking about how Spain is arresting the Governor (?) of Catalonia and replacing all their government officials with Spanish officials, taking over their public schools, etc. It just sounds insane.

[elenetxu]

Oct 27, 2017 13:31:44 GMT -5 isabel said:

Oct 27, 2017 13:29:52 GMT -5 elenetxu said:

What are they saying?

Probably the same things as the OP's articles. I haven't read anything. But NPR has just been talking about how Spain is arresting the Governor (?) of Catalonia and replacing all their government officials with Spanish officials, taking over their public schools, etc. It just sounds insane.

This power grab is right out of article 155 of the Spanish constitution. It's not going to be an easy next few years, but those representatives who voted for independence today knew exactly what was going to happen afterwards. Just yesterday it looked like they were going to call early regional elections and therefore avoid article 155.

[ESF]

Oct 27, 2017 11:35:42 GMT -5 bex said:

Oct 27, 2017 11:28:28 GMT -5 madDawg228 said:

I find this so interesting. I don't know a lot (really anything) about Spanish politics. Is the Catalonia Independence movement funded/supported by the Kremlin, by any chance?

It seems that whenever there are any independence movements in Western nations, the Kremlin is behind it somehow... maybe I've been wearing my tin hat too long.

Doubtful. Maybe there's extra fuel coming from Russia now, but its something that's been around for a long time in some form or another.  I don't know about Russia's relationship with Spain but I imagine franco and Stalin were not buddies. Not sure what that means for today's relationship of course.

There is evidence that this is what is happening. It has been reported on in a number of mainstream outlets.   This is what Russia does. They are looking for every separatist movement in the West, and tossing a match on each one to see which one burns. 

I feel this idea that every heritage should get its own country is a very dangerous one.  I support independence for groups that are currently oppressed, denied their right to celebrate their heritage and speak their language, and are under threat around the world. I don't support independence just because people are proud of their culture or are angry that their tax dollars are supporting the "other." The latter is how regions get destabilized, xenophobia triumphs, and people of color get killed.   I'm not an expert; I can't say where on that oppression spectrum the people of Catalonia really are, but my impression from being in Barcelona when the vote happened is that it's a lot closer to the latter.

That said, I in no way, shape, or form support the Spanish government's reaction to the movement, which was and continues to be abhorrent. And probably exactly what Putin wanted, countries turning against each other, proving that weaponizing nationalism pays off.

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 27, 2017 14:36:43 GMT -5 ESF said:

Oct 27, 2017 11:35:42 GMT -5 bex said:

Doubtful. Maybe there's extra fuel coming from Russia now, but its something that's been around for a long time in some form or another.  I don't know about Russia's relationship with Spain but I imagine franco and Stalin were not buddies. Not sure what that means for today's relationship of course.

There is evidence that this is what is happening. It has been reported on in a number of mainstream outlets.   This is what Russia does. They are looking for every separatist movement in the West, and tossing a match on each one to see which one burns. 

I feel this idea that every heritage should get its own country is a very dangerous one.  I support independence for groups that are currently oppressed, denied their right to celebrate their heritage and speak their language, and are under threat around the world. I don't support independence just because people are proud of their culture or are angry that their tax dollars are supporting the "other." The latter is how regions get destabilized, xenophobia triumphs, and people of color get killed.   I'm not an expert; I can't say where on that oppression spectrum the people of Catalonia really are, but my impression from being in Barcelona when the vote happened is that it's a lot closer to the latter.

That said, I in no way, shape, or form support the Spanish government's reaction to the movement, which was and continues to be abhorrent. And probably exactly what Putin wanted, countries turning against each other, proving that weaponizing nationalism pays off.

I'm with you. I always feel like a hypocrite whenever I feel that the answer to a particularly troublesome geopolitical situation isn't independence. I mean, my parents emigrated from the former Communist Yugoslavia, so yeah, I'm all for independence for oppressed populations. So I feel like I *should* support Catalonian independence, but...I don't know. 

Imagine we all decided to "make" our own countries and shit. No one would know how to work with and get along with anyone who isn't like them. That is not good. Oh, and obviously the exception to this rule is when borders are drawn at random by foreign powers who are subjugating (and worse) local populations. 

And fucking Russia. 

[bimbi284]

Statement from the mayor (on her fb page):
“After talking about a train crash in the conditional or future tense for so long, it's difficult to take on the fact that today it has happened.
A decade of PP carelessness with Catalonia has culminated with the adoption of article 155 by the Senate today.
Rajoy presented the motion to the applause of his party and to the shame of all of us who respect dignity and democracy.
Were they applauding his failure?
Those who have been incapable of proposing a single solution, incapable of listening or of governing for all, have enacted a coup against democracy today with the annihilation of Catalan self-government.
On the same track, in the other direction, the pro-independence parties are in their, smaller train with no breaks, advancing at a kamikazi pace (“now is the moment”, we're in a hurry”), after their mistaken reading of the results of the Catalan elections. Their speed has been the result of partisan interests, a headlong dash which has been consumated today with a Declaration of Independence in the name of Catalonia that doesn't have the support of a majority of Catalans.
We won't tire of repeating it: it's a mistake to rennounce the 80% in favour of a negotiated referendum for the 48% in favour of independence.
Many of us have been warning of this danger for years and, over recent weeks, working in public and in private to avoid this collision. We're a majority, in Catalonia and in Spain, who want a halt to the trains and for dialogue, common sense and an agreed solution to take hold.
There's always time to turn to dialogue. Whatever happens, we won't cease to demand it. But now our task is to defend Catalan institutions and to fight to maintain the social cohesion and prosperity of Barcelona and Catalonia. We'll be with the people, struggling to make sure that their rights are not violated. Healing the wounds that all of this has caused and calling on people in the rest of the country to fight with us, because the democracy that is at risk today is theirs too. We will also continue to call on the Socialist Party to stop supporting those who have applauded Rajoy today, otherwise it will be impossible for them to be part of any credible or inspiring alternative.
I know where I'll be: involved in the construction of new forms of self-government that give us more democracy, not less. That includes working to kick out the PP which, with its cruel applause today, has celebrated the pain of a people. But also, above all, I'll be working to feminize politics so that empathy becomes an everyday practice that allows us to build broad consensuses through which diversity can become our greatest treasure.”
Nor Article 155 nor Unilateral Declaration of Independence: not in my name.

[elenetxu]

Oct 27, 2017 13:31:44 GMT -5 isabel said:

Oct 27, 2017 13:29:52 GMT -5 elenetxu said:

What are they saying?

Probably the same things as the OP's articles. I haven't read anything. But NPR has just been talking about how Spain is arresting the Governor (?) of Catalonia and replacing all their government officials with Spanish officials, taking over their public schools, etc. It just sounds insane.

Taking over their public schools? All public schools in Spain are, in essence, governed by Madrid. Our autonomous communities are allowed to make very slight changes to the curriculum but, at the end of the day, it's Madrid that makes the calls. I don't know how they can say Madrid is taking over schools.

They've ousted the Catalan government and called elections for December 21st. I can't help but think that Madrid's takeover will be "light" until at least after elections. Measures that are too drastic would be a horrible campaign move.

[elenetxu]

Oct 27, 2017 15:02:10 GMT -5 bimbi284 said:

Statement from the mayor (on her fb page):
“After talking about a train crash in the conditional or future tense for so long, it's difficult to take on the fact that today it has happened.
A decade of PP carelessness with Catalonia has culminated with the adoption of article 155 by the Senate today.
Rajoy presented the motion to the applause of his party and to the shame of all of us who respect dignity and democracy.
Were they applauding his failure?
Those who have been incapable of proposing a single solution, incapable of listening or of governing for all, have enacted a coup against democracy today with the annihilation of Catalan self-government.
On the same track, in the other direction, the pro-independence parties are in their, smaller train with no breaks, advancing at a kamikazi pace (“now is the moment”, we're in a hurry”), after their mistaken reading of the results of the Catalan elections. Their speed has been the result of partisan interests, a headlong dash which has been consumated today with a Declaration of Independence in the name of Catalonia that doesn't have the support of a majority of Catalans.
We won't tire of repeating it: it's a mistake to rennounce the 80% in favour of a negotiated referendum for the 48% in favour of independence.
Many of us have been warning of this danger for years and, over recent weeks, working in public and in private to avoid this collision. We're a majority, in Catalonia and in Spain, who want a halt to the trains and for dialogue, common sense and an agreed solution to take hold.
There's always time to turn to dialogue. Whatever happens, we won't cease to demand it. But now our task is to defend Catalan institutions and to fight to maintain the social cohesion and prosperity of Barcelona and Catalonia. We'll be with the people, struggling to make sure that their rights are not violated. Healing the wounds that all of this has caused and calling on people in the rest of the country to fight with us, because the democracy that is at risk today is theirs too. We will also continue to call on the Socialist Party to stop supporting those who have applauded Rajoy today, otherwise it will be impossible for them to be part of any credible or inspiring alternative.
I know where I'll be: involved in the construction of new forms of self-government that give us more democracy, not less. That includes working to kick out the PP which, with its cruel applause today, has celebrated the pain of a people. But also, above all, I'll be working to feminize politics so that empathy becomes an everyday practice that allows us to build broad consensuses through which diversity can become our greatest treasure.”
Nor Article 155 nor Unilateral Declaration of Independence: not in my name.

Man, I love Colau.

[mbcdefg]

[isabel]

Oct 27, 2017 15:02:27 GMT -5 elenetxu said:

Oct 27, 2017 13:31:44 GMT -5 isabel said:

Probably the same things as the OP's articles. I haven't read anything. But NPR has just been talking about how Spain is arresting the Governor (?) of Catalonia and replacing all their government officials with Spanish officials, taking over their public schools, etc. It just sounds insane.

Taking over their public schools? All public schools in Spain are, in essence, governed by Madrid. Our autonomous communities are allowed to make very slight changes to the curriculum but, at the end of the day, it's Madrid that makes the calls. I don't know how they can say Madrid is taking over schools.

They've ousted the Catalan government and called elections for December 21st. I can't help but think that Madrid's takeover will be "light" until at least after elections. Measures that are too drastic would be a horrible campaign move.

I dunno. I specifically remember them saying that part on NPR this morning.

[elenetxu]

Here's an article about 155 from El País: elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/28/inenglish/1509171087_827308.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM_EN

Another good source in English is "The Spain Report".

[Linie]

Oct 27, 2017 11:28:28 GMT -5 madDawg228 said:

I find this so interesting. I don't know a lot (really anything) about Spanish politics. Is the Catalonia Independence movement funded/supported by the Kremlin, by any chance?

It seems that whenever there are any independence movements in Western nations, the Kremlin is behind it somehow... maybe I've been wearing my tin hat too long.

I don't think this is true at all. There has been an independentist community in Catalonia for as long as I can remember. The same goes for Flanders (where I'm from). As Scotland is getting really serious about independence, these movements are having new energy (not in Belgium at the moment).

Similar ideas have existed in the Basque countries, in Brittany, north of Italy since ages.

[elenetxu]

Linie Did you see Pudgimont has fled to Brussels, where he may apply for asylum?