'WHITE FLIGHT' REMAINS A REALITY

[cookiemdough]

As I try to get my mind around a possible move in the next year, I find myself becoming infuriated seeing the ridiculous price disparity across the DMV. 1940s house in whit suburbs $995,000. In my predominantly black county we still have 5,000 sq ft foreclosures going for $550,000.

The amount of money people are willing to pay, and the amount of home they are willing to give up to be away from people who look like me, is staggering.

[wawa]

Mar 10, 2018 4:02:10 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

As I try to get my mind around a possible move in the next year, I find myself becoming infuriated seeing the ridiculous price disparity across the DMV. 1940s house in whit suburbs $995,000. In my predominantly black county we still have 5,000 sq ft foreclosures going for $550,000.

The amount of money people are willing to pay, and the amount of home they are willing to give up to be away from people who look like me, is staggering.

I have had more fights with people around here about this than probably any other topic. They all go back to "but the schools".

It's really infuriating. It's also eye opening living where I do just over two county lines (nearly 3...Moco isn't far from me) seeing how prices fluctuate as you cross them. Especially Laurel. N.Laurel vs Laurel...i.e. Hoco vs pg? Absurd.

[bex]

Mar 10, 2018 6:42:33 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 10, 2018 4:02:10 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

As I try to get my mind around a possible move in the next year, I find myself becoming infuriated seeing the ridiculous price disparity across the DMV. 1940s house in whit suburbs $995,000. In my predominantly black county we still have 5,000 sq ft foreclosures going for $550,000.

The amount of money people are willing to pay, and the amount of home they are willing to give up to be away from people who look like me, is staggering.

I have had more fights with people around here about this than probably any other topic. They all go back to "but the schools".

It's really infuriating. It's also eye opening living where I do just over two county lines (nearly 3...Moco isn't far from me) seeing how prices fluctuate as you cross them. Especially Laurel. N.Laurel vs Laurel...i.e. Hoco vs pg? Absurd.

I'll say it. Our local group is AWFUL with this. it drives me batty.

It's the kind of thing that I never picked up on growing up.  I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood, all friend were white, etc, and all my parents' friends knew the coded language to use that I just accepted growing up. There are "good areas" and "bad areas" and "good schools" and "bad schools" and "places you don't feel comfortable at night." 

Now if I hear someone talk about "good areas" or "areas to avoid" I immediately side-eye them.

I think for middle class whites, living in a predominantly white area is considered a marker of success because you could "afford" to leave an area with more minorities.  I think for the upper class, in more expensive areas in general, its less so because you assume the minorities who live there are also "successful" and "can afford it" so they are the "right kind" of minority. I'm thinking here of some of the wealthier areas in Howard County, for example (for the Maryland people) that are more diverse than some might expect. (but I think, based on my personal observations, more of that diversity is due to a  higher population of Asian families, not necessarily Hispanic and AA families.  So it kind of gives the impression that some areas are diverse and welcoming but its really only for "some" minority groups.)

Anyway as long as white people are raised to think that predominantly white neighborhoods are better - however subconscious it may be (I don't think its always that subconscious) - we are going to continue to see this white flight.

ETA I want to clarify that I don't agree with the idea that a predominantly white neighborhood is better, or that there is a "right kind" of minority. I'm just rambling about the thought process.  I realize my post may have been unclear.

[rjamz]

I wish that I had even blinked twice in shock at this. But recently a friend told me that her ILs told her that she should drive by the schools at pick up time to “see what kind of people live in the neighborhood.” Which is obviously barely code for “what color people live in the neighborhood” because what else can you tell from driving by without talking to people?

And in the town I grew up in, there’s the “good” part of and the “bad” part, but guess what! The “bad” part has exactly the same crime rate as the “good” part! The only difference is the color and and socioeconomic status of the people who live there.

Even when I lived in New York City, and was folk that certain areas were dangerous, like Washington Heights. Bullshit. My husband went to medical school in the Heights and my doctors were all there and it’s an amazing neighborhood. Washington Heights is no more dangerous than my very white neighborhood in Chicago (don’t get me started on Chicago), but it has a large Dominican community. (Unfortunately the white people have discovered there are good schools in Washington Heights and they’re coming for it)

I feel such disgust and shame at all of this.

[NitaX]

Mar 10, 2018 6:42:33 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 10, 2018 4:02:10 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

As I try to get my mind around a possible move in the next year, I find myself becoming infuriated seeing the ridiculous price disparity across the DMV. 1940s house in whit suburbs $995,000. In my predominantly black county we still have 5,000 sq ft foreclosures going for $550,000.

The amount of money people are willing to pay, and the amount of home they are willing to give up to be away from people who look like me, is staggering.

I have had more fights with people around here about this than probably any other topic. They all go back to "but the schools".

It's really infuriating. It's also eye opening living where I do just over two county lines (nearly 3...Moco isn't far from me) seeing how prices fluctuate as you cross them. Especially Laurel. N.Laurel vs Laurel...i.e. Hoco vs pg? Absurd.

I go back to my hypothesis that white flight is a direct result of school integration. As it became more taboo to be racist, it didn't stop the coded language associated with it.

[tacokick]

Mar 10, 2018 9:25:35 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Mar 10, 2018 6:42:33 GMT -5 wawa said:

I have had more fights with people around here about this than probably any other topic. They all go back to "but the schools".

It's really infuriating. It's also eye opening living where I do just over two county lines (nearly 3...Moco isn't far from me) seeing how prices fluctuate as you cross them. Especially Laurel. N.Laurel vs Laurel...i.e. Hoco vs pg? Absurd.

I go back to my hypothesis that white flight is a direct result of school integration. As it became more taboo to be racist, it didn't stop the coded language associated with it.

Yes! I did a huge project on this topic in college with this as my thesis. There are a lot of articles that came out saying the same thing from the ‘70s to the early ‘90s but they have tapered off in more recent years.

[pixy0stix]

The "but the schools" argument drives me batty. More than half the time you ask people what makes those schools "better" and they can't even tell you.

None of this is surprising to me. My neighborhood is all single family, but backs up to apartments and older town homes, and we're right in the middle of the city. People ask me all the time why I live in such a "rough" neighborhood. Excusemewhat? The crime rate in our area isn't any different than anywhere else in the city. One time I pulled up the crime map and showed them the data, and their area was actually worse.

[penguingrrl]

I’m not surprised to see this. I’ve had a few people mention “but the high school” as why they wouldn’t buy a house in my town. It’s a larger regional HS that has a significant minority population. It’s barely hidden coded language and makes me laugh since the HS is a fabulous school. And it has honors/college prep track but also still has trade options.

I also had so many people comment on worrying about my safety when we moved to 148th at Amsterdam when H was in grad school. It was the one neighborhood we lived in in NYC that felt like a true neighborhood. Everyone hung out on their stoops and chatted, and knew each other. If I came in from the subway alone late at night people would still be outside and I’d get friendly comments about getting a mommy’s night out and everyone knew my kids names and chatted with them. Leaving the city was good for me for other reasons (I really struggled with urban living) but leaving my neighbors there was so hard.

[eclaires]

It’s interesting to watch this around here because one of the main draws to the area is MH’s employer, where I’m pretty sure among the professional salaried staff (the people being recruited to move here) whites are a minority. Most of Mh’s coworkers are either POC or foreigners. Because of that employer, and our area’s proximity, it’s also an expensive area to live relative to the rest of E TN. Good schools when looking at test scores, partially because of the influx of highly educated and demanding parents.

But there’s really nowhere to go to take flight from this unless you’re willing to pay a premium for where you live and also fund private school. There is definitely coded language about diversity or too much diversity. Personally, I’m thrilled because the main reason we chose this area was so we wouldn’t be in the neighboring rural county where the actual employer is located (my main requirement was not being surrounded by rural white people), but one thing you see a lot of is complaining about is holiday celebrations right now. It’s so dumb. Omg no one is trying to take your Jesus away from you.

[bugandbibs]

This has been an interesting "conundrum" in my school district. We have a robust Spanish Immersion program that goes k-12, and requires a 50/50 split of native Spanish speakers. Which means the district picks participating elementary schools based population. What will the middle class white people do???!!! The program is highly competitive to get in to and very prestigous.

[mssaint]

People are straight up racist assholes. I can’t read the DCUM maryland schools board without raising my blood pressure.

The latest outrage on that board is that the school system where I live is now giving the elementary school gifted screening test universally rather than how it was done before—only to those who were tagged or whose parents requested it (which, of course, meant that it was a biased process).

Now because there are limited slots for the elementary gifted programs and because the school system is identifying more minority kids as gifted, white kids aren’t getting in as easily to the centers and all of a sudden their parents are freaking the eff out and threatening to move to Howard County or Frederick County (which are much whiter than MoCo).

I attended a school budget presentation where the superintendent showed the data that pushing all kids to move into algebra earlier and providing supports had increased attainment in minority kids and didn’t harm white kids at all (they may even have increased a little?) and a white parent next to me was pissed off. The superintendent even explicitly said “it’s not a zero sum game. Expanding opportunity to FARMS, AA and Latino kids doesn’t take opportunity away from middle class white kids” and you would have thought the world was ending. Those white parents think their kids can only be counted as successful if they are doing better than other groups.

And this is in a “progressive” blue majority-minority county.

[Miss Phryne Fisher]

I can't quote on my phone but Mssaint that is so cool the district is testing all children now. I was in the gifted program in my district and it was really wonderful. I am glad more kids will have a chance to get in even if there are not more spots. But it would be cool if they expand it if more kids flat out qualify (no, not to fit in more white kids on the cusp with whiny parents)

[miso]

I sneer at the “but the schools” cry.

White people leave when Asians “take over,” and the schools rise to top five in the state.

You can’t “but the schools” that shit. What, the schools are too good now?

White people don’t like it when they’re not the super-majority or when they perceive they’re losing power.

It’s not about the schools. It’s absolutely about race.

[sangria]

I live in what would be considered a dicey area by most white people standards. In fact, on my street alone I have two black neighbors, three Indian neighbors, one Asian family and many, many latin neighbors. And you know what? The city police literally ended up in our front yard one night (they actually ran over our bush lol) because there was an armed man who was luring people on craigslist to meet up and then robbing them. The cops had been tracking him for a while and they finally caught him one night trying to flee down our street.

Anyone want to guess what color he was?

Yeah. That's all I have to add.

[mouse]

There's also a lot of excuse-making in white, wealthy neighborhoods. When there's a crime, it's not seen as reflecting on the quality of the neighborhood, it's an aberration or tragedy. Same with drug use. Same with schools. Whereas a poorer, diverse area "you want to avoid that place - someone got stabbed there" (seven years ago).

[rjamz]

Mar 10, 2018 9:25:35 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Mar 10, 2018 6:42:33 GMT -5 wawa said:

I have had more fights with people around here about this than probably any other topic. They all go back to "but the schools".

It's really infuriating. It's also eye opening living where I do just over two county lines (nearly 3...Moco isn't far from me) seeing how prices fluctuate as you cross them. Especially Laurel. N.Laurel vs Laurel...i.e. Hoco vs pg? Absurd.

I go back to my hypothesis that white flight is a direct result of school integration. As it became more taboo to be racist, it didn't stop the coded language associated with it.

Absolutely! White people had nothing to “fear” when they could send their precious white children to all white schools and only associate with other white parents of their children’s peers. After integration, well, they self segregated.

[rjamz]

Mar 10, 2018 10:20:13 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I’m not surprised to see this. I’ve had a few people mention “but the high school” as why they wouldn’t buy a house in my town. It’s a larger regional HS that has a significant minority population. It’s barely hidden coded language and makes me laugh since the HS is a fabulous school. And it has honors/college prep track but also still has trade options.

I also had so many people comment on worrying about my safety when we moved to 148th at Amsterdam when H was in grad school. It was the one neighborhood we lived in in NYC that felt like a true neighborhood. Everyone hung out on their stoops and chatted, and knew each other. If I came in from the subway alone late at night people would still be outside and I’d get friendly comments about getting a mommy’s night out and everyone knew my kids names and chatted with them. Leaving the city was good for me for other reasons (I really struggled with urban living) but leaving my neighbors there was so hard.

Hamilton Heights/Washington Heights is such an amazing neighborhood. But I mentioned in my previous post, white people have discovered there are good schools there and their coming with their gentrification and they’re going to ruin it and it’s heartbreaking

[penguingrrl]

Mar 10, 2018 14:07:02 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Mar 10, 2018 10:20:13 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I’m not surprised to see this. I’ve had a few people mention “but the high school” as why they wouldn’t buy a house in my town. It’s a larger regional HS that has a significant minority population. It’s barely hidden coded language and makes me laugh since the HS is a fabulous school. And it has honors/college prep track but also still has trade options.

I also had so many people comment on worrying about my safety when we moved to 148th at Amsterdam when H was in grad school. It was the one neighborhood we lived in in NYC that felt like a true neighborhood. Everyone hung out on their stoops and chatted, and knew each other. If I came in from the subway alone late at night people would still be outside and I’d get friendly comments about getting a mommy’s night out and everyone knew my kids names and chatted with them. Leaving the city was good for me for other reasons (I really struggled with urban living) but leaving my neighbors there was so hard.

Hamilton Heights/Washington Heights is such an amazing neighborhood. But I mentioned in my previous post, white people have discovered there are good schools there and their coming with their gentrification and they’re going to ruin it and it’s heartbreaking

That makes me so sad! I was in Morningside Heights before that and it was so unfriendly and impersonal, and it’s the exact people moving uptown. The neighborhood is going to be lost, which is a shame when it was such a great neighborhood.

[rjamz]

Mar 10, 2018 14:40:29 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Mar 10, 2018 14:07:02 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Hamilton Heights/Washington Heights is such an amazing neighborhood. But I mentioned in my previous post, white people have discovered there are good schools there and their coming with their gentrification and they’re going to ruin it and it’s heartbreaking

That makes me so sad! I was in Morningside Heights before that and it was so unfriendly and impersonal, and it’s the exact people moving uptown. The neighborhood is going to be lost, which is a shame when it was such a great neighborhood.

I lived on the edge of the UWS/Morningside Heights and I loved it there - but it was that nice neighborhood between Columbia and the fancy UWS that's sort of forgotten about - the low 100s, so lots of small restaurants and bakeries and family owned businesses. It was getting expensive when we moved to Chicago though. We sold our apartment to someone who works at Goldman Sachs, so my guess is the character is gone there too.

[terpsfan]

Mar 10, 2018 7:25:29 GMT -5 bex said:

Mar 10, 2018 6:42:33 GMT -5 wawa said:

I have had more fights with people around here about this than probably any other topic. They all go back to "but the schools".

It's really infuriating. It's also eye opening living where I do just over two county lines (nearly 3...Moco isn't far from me) seeing how prices fluctuate as you cross them. Especially Laurel. N.Laurel vs Laurel...i.e. Hoco vs pg? Absurd.

I'll say it. Our local group is AWFUL with this. it drives me batty.

It's the kind of thing that I never picked up on growing up.  I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood, all friend were white, etc, and all my parents' friends knew the coded language to use that I just accepted growing up. There are "good areas" and "bad areas" and "good schools" and "bad schools" and "places you don't feel comfortable at night." 

Now if I hear someone talk about "good areas" or "areas to avoid" I immediately side-eye them.

I think for middle class whites, living in a predominantly white area is considered a marker of success because you could "afford" to leave an area with more minorities.  I think for the upper class, in more expensive areas in general, its less so because you assume the minorities who live there are also "successful" and "can afford it" so they are the "right kind" of minority. I'm thinking here of some of the wealthier areas in Howard County, for example (for the Maryland people) that are more diverse than some might expect. (but I think, based on my personal observations, more of that diversity is due to a  higher population of Asian families, not necessarily Hispanic and AA families.  So it kind of gives the impression that some areas are diverse and welcoming but its really only for "some" minority groups.)

Anyway as long as white people are raised to think that predominantly white neighborhoods are better - however subconscious it may be (I don't think its always that subconscious) - we are going to continue to see this white flight.

ETA I want to clarify that I don't agree with the idea that a predominantly white neighborhood is better, or that there is a "right kind" of minority. I'm just rambling about the thought process.  I realize my post may have been unclear.

I see this all the time in my immediate cluster of HoCo. Our elementary (hses) is way more diverse than the others that feed into the common middle and there’s a lot of remarks — ohh you are there (eye roll) like it’s inner City Baltimore. With the redistricting talks the local FB groups have gotten really nasty about “good” and “bad” schools in HoCo which is laughable.

[penguingrrl]

Mar 10, 2018 16:59:22 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Mar 10, 2018 14:40:29 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

That makes me so sad! I was in Morningside Heights before that and it was so unfriendly and impersonal, and it’s the exact people moving uptown. The neighborhood is going to be lost, which is a shame when it was such a great neighborhood.

I lived on the edge of the UWS/Morningside Heights and I loved it there - but it was that nice neighborhood between Columbia and the fancy UWS that's sort of forgotten about - the low 100s, so lots of small restaurants and bakeries and family owned businesses. It was getting expensive when we moved to Chicago though. We sold our apartment to someone who works at Goldman Sachs, so my guess is the character is gone there too.

We were on the corner of Riverside at Tiemann Place from 2007-2009, in columbia U student family housing. It was a very pretty place, but everyone was a student and it wasn’t a neighborhood in the same way. I think it was a more transient group, so people weren’t looking for the same lasting connection. I wasn’t unhappy there, but never felt the sense of community and connection Inhad at 148th.

Where you were was a fantastic neighborhood! Very vibrant and fun, but so so expensive! The only students i knew there were either also live in third string nannies or had truly wealthy parents.

[wawa]

Mar 10, 2018 17:45:01 GMT -5 terpsfan said:

Mar 10, 2018 7:25:29 GMT -5 bex said:

I'll say it. Our local group is AWFUL with this. it drives me batty.

It's the kind of thing that I never picked up on growing up.  I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood, all friend were white, etc, and all my parents' friends knew the coded language to use that I just accepted growing up. There are "good areas" and "bad areas" and "good schools" and "bad schools" and "places you don't feel comfortable at night." 

Now if I hear someone talk about "good areas" or "areas to avoid" I immediately side-eye them.

I think for middle class whites, living in a predominantly white area is considered a marker of success because you could "afford" to leave an area with more minorities.  I think for the upper class, in more expensive areas in general, its less so because you assume the minorities who live there are also "successful" and "can afford it" so they are the "right kind" of minority. I'm thinking here of some of the wealthier areas in Howard County, for example (for the Maryland people) that are more diverse than some might expect. (but I think, based on my personal observations, more of that diversity is due to a  higher population of Asian families, not necessarily Hispanic and AA families.  So it kind of gives the impression that some areas are diverse and welcoming but its really only for "some" minority groups.)

Anyway as long as white people are raised to think that predominantly white neighborhoods are better - however subconscious it may be (I don't think its always that subconscious) - we are going to continue to see this white flight.

ETA I want to clarify that I don't agree with the idea that a predominantly white neighborhood is better, or that there is a "right kind" of minority. I'm just rambling about the thought process.  I realize my post may have been unclear.

I see this all the time in my immediate cluster of HoCo. Our elementary (hses) is way more diverse than the others that feed into the common middle and there’s a lot of remarks — ohh you are there (eye roll) like it’s inner City Baltimore. With the redistricting talks the local FB groups have gotten really nasty about “good” and “bad” schools in HoCo which is laughable.

my kids will go to one of the bad elementary and middle schools apparently...I didn't know this until recently. They seem fine to me...

And bex. AGREED

[Velar Fricative]

My example isn't white flight in terms of relocating to where the "good schools" are, but kids notice this stuff too. When I was in 8th grade, I figured out pretty quickly why a bunch of my classmates were heading to private high schools instead of remaining in our (at the time) junior/senior high school containing grades 7-12. Keep in mind I went to a great public high school in Westchester County, where the property taxes are so insane you have to be pretty filthy rich to pay them AND send your kids to the $$$ private schools there. But, we had a handful of black kids. Literally a handful - 5 or so in my graduating class of 65. But that was way higher than at the private schools and most public schools there, and the coded language was obvious to my 14-year-old self (and obviously it was nothing new to my black classmates). I received a great education there.

So that's what happens when white families move to the suburbs but then minorities have the nerve to relocate there for the good schools too. 

[terpsfan]

Mar 10, 2018 20:38:57 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 10, 2018 17:45:01 GMT -5 terpsfan said:

I see this all the time in my immediate cluster of HoCo. Our elementary (hses) is way more diverse than the others that feed into the common middle and there’s a lot of remarks — ohh you are there (eye roll) like it’s inner City Baltimore. With the redistricting talks the local FB groups have gotten really nasty about “good” and “bad” schools in HoCo which is laughable.

my kids will go to one of the bad elementary and middle schools apparently...I didn't know this until recently. They seem fine to me...

And bex. AGREED

Your kids will get an amazing education in HoCo. My friend is principal at Cradlerock and she great :-)

[wawa]

Mar 10, 2018 21:10:09 GMT -5 terpsfan said:

Mar 10, 2018 20:38:57 GMT -5 wawa said:

my kids will go to one of the bad elementary and middle schools apparently...I didn't know this until recently. They seem fine to me...

And bex. AGREED

Your kids will get an amazing education in HoCo. My friend is principal at Cradlerock and she great :-)

I'm sure! I've never been worried.

[msmerymac]

Mar 10, 2018 6:42:33 GMT -5 wawa said:

Mar 10, 2018 4:02:10 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

As I try to get my mind around a possible move in the next year, I find myself becoming infuriated seeing the ridiculous price disparity across the DMV. 1940s house in whit suburbs $995,000. In my predominantly black county we still have 5,000 sq ft foreclosures going for $550,000.

The amount of money people are willing to pay, and the amount of home they are willing to give up to be away from people who look like me, is staggering.

I have had more fights with people around here about this than probably any other topic. They all go back to "but the schools".

It's really infuriating. It's also eye opening living where I do just over two county lines (nearly 3...Moco isn't far from me) seeing how prices fluctuate as you cross them. Especially Laurel. N.Laurel vs Laurel...i.e. Hoco vs pg? Absurd.

And "but the schools" is code for "my kid will be a minority!"

[NitaX]

Mar 11, 2018 8:36:33 GMT -5 1234FIF! said:

So white kids can't learn if black or brown kids are in the classroom too? The kids of color block the knowledge from entering their brains?

Because the black and brown kids will bully their precious white babies. It's about "safety."

[05heel]

I wish we could resegregate the schools. But like officially, and not via this white flight, scary black kid nonsense.

A girl can dream.

[goldengirlz]

With a few notable exceptions, it’s very hard to find a town in Silicon Valley where whites make up more than 70% of the total. In other words, in most cities here, Hispanics and/or Asians are above that 25% threshold.

I think that’s why lately I’ve been rolling my eyes when I hear people like Peter Thiel declare Silicon Valley “over” while crowing about the virtues of greener (read: whiter) pastures like Boulder or Austin.

www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/us/california-today-silicon-valley-peter-thiel.amp.html

Not to discount the very serious housing crisis here, but whenever I hear people like Sam Altman say things like: “Silicon Valley has lost some of its ability to tolerate controversial ideas that sometimes create a lot of value,” I think, he means libertarian white dudes aren’t the super-majority in big tech companies anymore.

I wonder if what we’re seeing is basically the study in the OP on a very large scale. Anyway /tangent

[cookiemdough]

Mar 11, 2018 8:36:33 GMT -5 1234FIF! said:

So white kids can't learn if black or brown kids are in the classroom too? The kids of color block the knowledge from entering their brains?

Sure they can learn but then they may want to become friends and then they might want to get the crazy idea to invite them over to the HOUSE and even scarier...::whispers:: they may want to date and marry and procreate and then before you know it there are no more pure white peoples. Then everyone becomes a zombie.

The end