This is not really the point but it’s related so I’ll bring it up anyway - ride-sharing has spoiled us. It is decimating public transportation, because the rich can take Uber around Manhattan but the poor are left to deal with our crumbling transit system. And when you’re being ushered around in a private vehicle, why would you want to go back to sitting with the unwashed masses on a bus? And therefore why would you want to fund something you’re not using? I fear public transit will no longer be seen as a worthwhile investment (not that it is in a whole lot of places anyway) because, hey, just book your own car when you want it, traffic be damned!
Along these lines, DH decided to take the light rail from daycare drop off into downtown. He did it exactly once and said never again. It took him nearly twice as long as it does by car even factoring the insanity that is rush hour traffic in Denver.
So it’s a chicken and the egg thing, right? If public transportation isn’t efficient enough, people won’t use it (unless they have no other choice; rich/poor divide). If they won’t use it, why would they fund it? Which circles back to your point that you have poor people left with the scraps of public transportation that is underfunded and doesn’t work and wealthy people who utilize private ride shares or their own vehicles to get around.
This is not really the point but it’s related so I’ll bring it up anyway - ride-sharing has spoiled us. It is decimating public transportation, because the rich can take Uber around Manhattan but the poor are left to deal with our crumbling transit system. And when you’re being ushered around in a private vehicle, why would you want to go back to sitting with the unwashed masses on a bus? And therefore why would you want to fund something you’re not using? I fear public transit will no longer be seen as a worthwhile investment (not that it is in a whole lot of places anyway) because, hey, just book your own car when you want it, traffic be damned!
Yes but at least in nyc if you get more people using Uber and private cars, traffic is going to get so bad that people will go back to the subway. I never take a taxi from upper manhattan to lower if I’m in a hurry because the subway is so much faster. It just can’t handle the amount of cars that would be needed if the transit system got too bad.
This is not really the point but it’s related so I’ll bring it up anyway - ride-sharing has spoiled us. It is decimating public transportation, because the rich can take Uber around Manhattan but the poor are left to deal with our crumbling transit system. And when you’re being ushered around in a private vehicle, why would you want to go back to sitting with the unwashed masses on a bus? And therefore why would you want to fund something you’re not using? I fear public transit will no longer be seen as a worthwhile investment (not that it is in a whole lot of places anyway) because, hey, just book your own car when you want it, traffic be damned!
Yes but at least in nyc if you get more people using Uber and private cars, traffic is going to get so bad that people will go back to the subway. I never take a taxi from upper manhattan to lower if I’m in a hurry because the subway is so much faster. It just can’t handle the amount of cars that would be needed if the transit system got too bad.
But traffic has already gotten so bad and yet the city had to intervene with reducing Uber cars. I commute into Manhattan just a couple of times a month now but used to commute in full-time, and I cannot believe the how bad it’s gotten. I believe without intervention, the problem would have gotten even worse before it got better.
I am 98% sure we bought or last internal combustion vehicle 5 years ago when we bought my Subaru. We just didn't know it then.
We bought a Telsa model 3 in August to replace H's truck as a daily driver, and he and I both are in love with this car. (The truck has low mileage, so we're holding onto it for camping/hauling). The range is long enough that we can get to our parents' town 4hrs away without having to stop to charge. And when we DO need to charge, we're in need of a stop anyway. We haven't had any issues being able to find chargers, and there are two more being put in by 2019.
It was the most expensive car we've purchased, but it wasn't outrageous. My in-laws spent more on a fully loaded GMC Acadia. (3rd row SUV)
Rumor is Telsa is building a crossover on the Model 3 frame. I have my eye on that one to replace my Subaru Crosstrek when it comes time.
I’m so glad you’re pleased with your Model 3! That range is ample as you said it is usually time to stop anyway. I have an older Model S so only get around 250 miles and that’s plenty aside from the rare trip.
Do you have enhanced auto pilot? If so what do you think?
We do have EAP. Where we live is mostly surface streets, so it's not super useful on a daily basis. But H travels for work a decent bit, and we use it when driving back home. It works really well so far - and takes some of the "stress" out of driving. We're out of town now, but we just got the v9 update. I'm excited to see the new features.
I agree that this is both urban-centric and Europe-centric. But within the confines of European metropolitan areas, I do think it’s realistic. Oslo has already committed to having a “car-free” city center in ten years, and if there were more affordable ride-sharing options (the taxi union has blocked all but Uber black), it would be an even easier sell.
As for hauling stuff around, we’ve definitely done that with a taxi. When we needed to move from our short term housing to our apartment, we ordered a station wagon, and just paid the waiting rate while we loaded it up and unloaded it at the other end. I guess it could be an issue if we were hauling something really messy, but for most things we need to transport, it’s not a problem. (And some warehouse stores offer dedicated free buses to/from the city center so that people don’t have to worry about getting stuff home.)
We have 1 car and it's 8 years old, so it is definitely not our last. I hope it hangs on until we can afford an electric or at least a hybrid vehicle though.
I wish that there was more investment in public transit before thinking of all these driverless cars. Reducing the number of cars on the road could reduce so many problems, and trains or buses would contribute a lot to doing that. It's just so inefficient right now, and also expensive for longer distances. It would cost 2 people $70+ to take the train down to DC from where I live, or it's around 1 hour drive (probably $10 or less in gas round trip in my car). We are going up to NYC next month and we can spend $60 on gas or $500 on train tickets. No wonder most people aren't using trains!
My H dropped me off at a conference on Friday. It took 13 minutes to drive there. I took a bus home and it took about 45 minutes. I guess a cheap Uber type service would have solved that issue.
We have 1 car and it's 8 years old, so it is definitely not our last. I hope it hangs on until we can afford an electric or at least a hybrid vehicle though.
I wish that there was more investment in public transit before thinking of all these driverless cars. Reducing the number of cars on the road could reduce so many problems, and trains or buses would contribute a lot to doing that. It's just so inefficient right now, and also expensive for longer distances. It would cost 2 people $70+ to take the train down to DC from where I live, or it's around 1 hour drive (probably $10 or less in gas round trip in my car). We are going up to NYC next month and we can spend $60 on gas or $500 on train tickets. No wonder most people aren't using trains!
My H dropped me off at a conference on Friday. It took 13 minutes to drive there. I took a bus home and it took about 45 minutes. I guess a cheap Uber type service would have solved that issue.
The cost and efficiency of public transit desperately need to be addressed, without question. H used to commute into NYC from our house in NJ. It was 45 miles and took between 2:15 and 2:30 each way. At a cost of just under $600 a month. He moved to his company’s Princeton office, also 45 miles from our house and cut his commute by an hour each way. And his car loan (we only had one car prior to him taking the job), insurance and gas are way under $600 a month.
What’s crazy is that when my family first moved to our town in 1986 it was. 60 minute train ride to Penn Station, 55 of you got the express train. Now it’s an 87 minute ride, 77 if you catch an express. The failure to adequately maintain our rail infrastructure is to blame (several places have track beds so bad the train has to slow down), so it’s very expensive and so inefficient. It kills me.
Yes but at least in nyc if you get more people using Uber and private cars, traffic is going to get so bad that people will go back to the subway. I never take a taxi from upper manhattan to lower if I’m in a hurry because the subway is so much faster. It just can’t handle the amount of cars that would be needed if the transit system got too bad.
But traffic has already gotten so bad and yet the city had to intervene with reducing Uber cars. I commute into Manhattan just a couple of times a month now but used to commute in full-time, and I cannot believe the how bad it’s gotten. I believe without intervention, the problem would have gotten even worse before it got better.
I commute into the city every day, because the MetroNorth is sooo expensive. It costs more for a monthly pass than gas and a car payment.
Completely agree with you both wildrice and penguingrrl. The cost and inefficiency of public transportation is a huge barrier to people actually wanting to use those systems.
We’re having an issue here with some of the costs for tickets to utilize light rail to get to the airport and what they are charging is *still* not enough. A republican colleague of mine was grumbling about how people who take the train should pay for the full expense (rather than tax money being used to cover the remaining cost). I countered that if they did that, nobody would use the service, thereby increasing traffic congestion and making his own commute more expensive (both in time and money). He just shrugged me off.
A monthly pass for H to take light rail downtown (and remember that it takes him close to twice as long compared to driving in heavy traffic) costs about the same amount as parking down there, which isn’t cheap. I mean he would save gas I guess, but it’s not like there’s a justifiable difference for how much extra time it requires.
I don’t know what the answer is. We underfund public transportation because it isn’t used. But it isn’t used because it’s underfunded (and therefore expensive and inefficient). As such, we will continue to use cars because they just make more sense for the majority of America.
I live literally next door to a metro station and most days take metro to work in DC but I still need a car.
The days I have kiddo, I have to drive him to school and then to drive back to my complex to park for free would take 20 minutes on top of the 15 I already took to drop him. So I generally park at a pay lot and metro in those days.
I try to combine trips and such to drive less, and I do take metro to work 85% of the time, but there’s no way I couldn’t have a car.
Until someone figures out how to magically get my 3 kids, chairs, snacks, etc. To soccer 4 times a week, this soccer mom is still going to need my minivan. I guess I missed the Tahoe memo. 😏
Well for sure our next car will not be gas powered. But last.car.ever? Hyperbole. Not realistic for families who have to schlep kids places all over the place. It would be great if schools would fund school busses again because all that driving to drop kids off at school and pick them up...! Totally inefficient. We used to be a one car family and carpool. It was fine. The we became a family of 3 and had three places to go everyday and it was hard. Then we became a family of 4 and had 4 places to go every morning and we did that a year and then we had to quit the carpool and get a second car. Because it became impossible. So this theory. I don’t know.
We have 1 car and it's 8 years old, so it is definitely not our last. I hope it hangs on until we can afford an electric or at least a hybrid vehicle though.
I wish that there was more investment in public transit before thinking of all these driverless cars. Reducing the number of cars on the road could reduce so many problems, and trains or buses would contribute a lot to doing that. It's just so inefficient right now, and also expensive for longer distances. It would cost 2 people $70+ to take the train down to DC from where I live, or it's around 1 hour drive (probably $10 or less in gas round trip in my car). We are going up to NYC next month and we can spend $60 on gas or $500 on train tickets. No wonder most people aren't using trains!
My H dropped me off at a conference on Friday. It took 13 minutes to drive there. I took a bus home and it took about 45 minutes. I guess a cheap Uber type service would have solved that issue.
In Germany, 1 adult ticket on the train is pretty expensive, but a ticket for up to 5 people traveling together costs only around 50% more than 1 adult fare. That had us scratching our heads for a while, but I think it's because they don't want to create this situation where the train is uneconomical as soon as you have people to carpool with.
Well for sure our next car will not be gas powered. But last.car.ever? Hyperbole. Not realistic for families who have to schlep kids places all over the place. It would be great if schools would fund school busses again because all that driving to drop kids off at school and pick them up...! Totally inefficient. We used to be a one car family and carpool. It was fine. The we became a family of 3 and had three places to go everyday and it was hard. Then we became a family of 4 and had 4 places to go every morning and we did that a year and then we had to quit the carpool and get a second car. Because it became impossible. So this theory. I don’t know.
The school bus thing is a huge factor in this. There are fewer than 20 houses in my town that qualify for busing per state law, which is that you have to be over 2 miles or have to cross a divided highway to get a bus.
Except our sidewalk infrastructure is such that for a lot of families walking is truly unsafe (no sidewalks on narrow 35 mph roads). We used to offer a subscription bus service for $500+ per year per child (with no discount for multiple children), but due to a school budget crisis that’s gone too. It essentially forces people to drive their kids in. And car seat/booster laws make carpooling more difficult (easy to keep boosters, but as kids we routinely crammed 4-5 kids across a backseat, which is now known to be terribly unsafe).
I still want to know what the solutions are for apartment dwellers who don't have parking but want electric vehicles. There are no charging stations in my area. I can't run an extension cord from my apartment out to wherever I may park on the street. There are many, many places like that around here. It's another factor that needs to be addressed to help make doing away with the internal combustion engine a realistic and accessible option.
I still want to know what the solutions are for apartment dwellers who don't have parking but want electric vehicles. There are no charging stations in my area. I can't run an extension cord from my apartment out to wherever I may park on the street. There are many, many places like that around here. It's another factor that needs to be addressed to help make doing away with the internal combustion engine a realistic and accessible option.
We have electric street parking in a few areas to encourage more people downtown to choose electric. And I know a lot of people who charge at work and use regular street parking at night.
I still want to know what the solutions are for apartment dwellers who don't have parking but want electric vehicles. There are no charging stations in my area. I can't run an extension cord from my apartment out to wherever I may park on the street. There are many, many places like that around here. It's another factor that needs to be addressed to help make doing away with the internal combustion engine a realistic and accessible option.
We have electric street parking in a few areas to encourage more people downtown to choose electric. And I know a lot of people who charge at work and use regular street parking at night.
There are charging stations at some shopping centers. Nothing at or near my work and only a couple charging stations where I normally do my shopping. I want there to be better options, like what you're describing or something even more accessible for people.
Post by One Girl In All The World on Oct 21, 2018 16:35:32 GMT -5
We just got news that my H's car needs a new engine sooooo we're probably buying a new car in the next week. Blech. I do think we are leaning toward a hybrid.
I'm definitely buying another car, likely another car with some type of internal combustion, but I hope to make it a hybrid at the very least, and more likely a plug-in hybrid or potentially full electric (with eventual solar panels for the garage). My current car turned 12 in August (I purchased it new), and I hope to get a few more years before it bites the dust. Even though it's not super efficient these days, it's compact and it gets the job done, and I believe using it for as long as it's functional (i.e. not spewing more noxious fumes around than it's designed to) is the most environmentally-friendly and economical choice at the moment.
However, we were a one car family for a few years when I was working from home full time. We PURPOSELY moved to an area and bought a house where there are multiple public transportation options. I live in a community-oriented suburb and I can hop a commuter train with a 12 minute walk. One of the buses through our town also goes to my husband's office. Yes, it's longer - but maybe 20 minutes vs. 12 - but the real trick is making sure you catch the bus, because it only comes every hour or less.
People just have to make hard choices - not scoff at this because you live in rural Idaho and NEED a 3 ton pick-up truck. Yes, of course you do. But eventually, people who don't NEED to live in rural Idaho may need to move to Spokane and start using a bus or self-driving car.
I've had a car since I was 18. I toyed with not having a car in my early 20s (I had a lot of friends who didn't - yes, even in LA. which has the largest fleet of buses in the US). But I agree that it just came down to the fact that it was somewhat inconvenient to not have a car. At that point in my life my schedule was chaotic and there were times I'm pretty sure half my shoes and 1/4 of my clothes just lived in my car. You never know when you'll need either flip flops or heels, okay? My car became like an extension of my house - a moving room where I could store a bunch of stuff and access it no matter where I was, because my car was always close by, too. And then I made the decision that for one month I was going to just buy a metro pass and use public transit. Being Los Angeles, I got a lot of, "Oh, what's wrong with your car?" comments. But if I had my husband drop me at the subway, my commute was just about as long as it would have been driving (subway to express bus, and a 1 block walk to my office). Without him dropping me off it added a 20 minute walk. It was also terrifying and freeing at the same time. I couldn't use my car as RAM for my daily life, but I also didn't have a 2000 pound albatross with me that needed a parking space in a city where cars are ubiquitous. I had to know the bus schedule, but that better allowed me to schedule my day around it and keep to a set plan. I had to organize my life and pack my bag as minimally as possible, fitting in everything I needed, but nothing I didn't, since I didn't want to carry anything very heavy or more than one item. I got to spend time reading and thinking and not stressing in traffic.
Plenty of things about public transit suck, especially when you're a woman. Having to wait for the bus in the dark sucks. Having to change up which train you take each day so the guy who likes to accidentally rub against you won't know what train you're on sucks. Having to alter your walk home daily so no one will follow you sucks. Not being comfortable enough to wear headphones because you want to be more aware of your surroundings sucks. Having to take 3 different buses and spend 3 hours to get to your doctor when a 35 minute drive would have done it sucks.
Not being able to choose whether or not you have to take transit is limiting. Because everyone who has to desperately wishes, at least some of the time, they don't have to take the bus. But for those who can choose to do, it's really imperative that we do.
Impossible. It takes my husband 45-60 minutes to get to work (mass transit would take him much longer), and our son goes to school in a different town. My car doubles as an office / living room. I spend significant time in my car running errands, getting him to/from school, and to activities. In no world is renting, borrowing, or Ubering more feasible when you're a suburban stay at home mom.
Post by rupertpenny on Oct 21, 2018 21:00:22 GMT -5
I hope this is true. I absolutely hate driving and one of my goals in life is to never drive regularly. I actually haven't really since high school.
In many ways I am probably one of the rich assholes ESF mentions, because I've always been able to afford to live within 1.5 miles of work and/or public transportation. But I do really support public transportation. It is such a shame that it doesn't exist in so many places, and that it is becoming run down and useless in cities like DC and NYC. I have become very spoiled living in Hong Kong where most trips on transit are less than $1 and you never have to wait more than 5 minutes for a bus or 3 minutes for a train. That should be possible in the most dense areas of the US as well. We don't even have to pay high taxes here to get this!
I also think some of this is tied to the idea that most Americans are just not interested in living in more dense neighborhoods or multi-family housing. I know in many cities these areas are unaffordable for many, but I still don't see many families giving up their suburban house with a two car garage and moving to an urban apartment even if it were affordable. A single family home and two cars per family is just so ingrained, so in addition to the logistical issues there would have to be a HUGE cultural shift.
I hope this is true. I absolutely hate driving and one of my goals in life is to never drive regularly. I actually haven't really since high school.
In many ways I am probably one of the rich assholes ESF mentions, because I've always been able to afford to live within 1.5 miles of work and/or public transportation. But I do really support public transportation. It is such a shame that it doesn't exist in so many places, and that it is becoming run down and useless in cities like DC and NYC. I have become very spoiled living in Hong Kong where most trips on transit are less than $1 and you never have to wait more than 5 minutes for a bus or 3 minutes for a train. That should be possible in the most dense areas of the US as well. We don't even have to pay high taxes here to get this!
I also think some of this is tied to the idea that most Americans are just not interested in living in more dense neighborhoods or multi-family housing. I know in many cities these areas are unaffordable for many, but I still don't see many families giving up their suburban house with a two car garage and moving to an urban apartment even if it were affordable. A single family home and two cars per family is just so ingrained, so in addition to the logistical issues there would have to be a HUGE cultural shift.
Re: your last paragraph, I think we also just have shitty options in a lot of places. It’s kind of a chicken and egg situation - do we not have good multi family housing options because people won’t live in them or will people not live in them because the options are shitty?
I lived in a big apartment building in the most pedestrian and transit section of my city. But my apartment was ancient, covered in lead paint, had shitty laundry facilities, and had unresponsive management. It didn’t have underground parking so I had to scrape my car off in the winter - super fun with a kid. At some point, I’m just tired of dealing with all that shit. And it seems like the options were similar buildings or these new luxury apartment buildings with granite countertops and $$$ rent to match. We paid $1600 for rent plus parking, and to get the same space in a building that was less shitty likely would’ve been $2000. But now we pay less than $1300 for our mortgage and we have more space plus our own small yard for the kiddo to run around in. And we are still walkable to things, just not as many things, and we’reno longer on a direct bus line to work. We couldn’t even secure a lot of our furniture to the walls because of the plaster they used when adding walls. We couldn’t get our daughter’s bedroom door to latch shut. It was super fun when both elevators went out and we got to schlep the groceries AND the baby up 6 flights of stairs. It just felt like nothing about multi family living was designed for, well, a family.
I hope this is true. I absolutely hate driving and one of my goals in life is to never drive regularly. I actually haven't really since high school.
In many ways I am probably one of the rich assholes ESF mentions, because I've always been able to afford to live within 1.5 miles of work and/or public transportation. But I do really support public transportation. It is such a shame that it doesn't exist in so many places, and that it is becoming run down and useless in cities like DC and NYC. I have become very spoiled living in Hong Kong where most trips on transit are less than $1 and you never have to wait more than 5 minutes for a bus or 3 minutes for a train. That should be possible in the most dense areas of the US as well. We don't even have to pay high taxes here to get this!
I also think some of this is tied to the idea that most Americans are just not interested in living in more dense neighborhoods or multi-family housing. I know in many cities these areas are unaffordable for many, but I still don't see many families giving up their suburban house with a two car garage and moving to an urban apartment even if it were affordable. A single family home and two cars per family is just so ingrained, so in addition to the logistical issues there would have to be a HUGE cultural shift.
Re: your last paragraph, I think we also just have shitty options in a lot of places. It’s kind of a chicken and egg situation - do we not have good multi family housing options because people won’t live in them or will people not live in them because the options are shitty?
I lived in a big apartment building in the most pedestrian and transit section of my city. But my apartment was ancient, covered in lead paint, had shitty laundry facilities, and had unresponsive management. It didn’t have underground parking so I had to scrape my car off in the winter - super fun with a kid. At some point, I’m just tired of dealing with all that shit. And it seems like the options were similar buildings or these new luxury apartment buildings with granite countertops and $$$ rent to match. We paid $1600 for rent plus parking, and to get the same space in a building that was less shitty likely would’ve been $2000. But now we pay less than $1300 for our mortgage and we have more space plus our own small yard for the kiddo to run around in. And we are still walkable to things, just not as many things, and we’reno longer on a direct bus line to work. We couldn’t even secure a lot of our furniture to the walls because of the plaster they used when adding walls. We couldn’t get our daughter’s bedroom door to latch shut. It was super fun when both elevators went out and we got to schlep the groceries AND the baby up 6 flights of stairs. It just felt like nothing about multi family living was designed for, well, a family.
I agree, I think it totally is a chicken and egg situation. There are not good options for families. There is a small possibility we might move to NYC soon so I've been browsing 3 bed apartments and they are all advertised as "great set up for roommates!" because I guess that's more likely than a family? I'm sure this is influenced by the budget and neighborhoods I'm looking at, but it seems crazy to me that even in Manhattan the assumption is that even larger apartments aren't for families.
I know smaller cities are much worse. We lived in Tallahassee when B was born and lived downtown so I could be close to work and there were NO DAYCARES actually in the city center besides at the university. It was insane, just everything was set up on the assumption that family=suburban house.
I've read some stuff on Vox about how Vancouver is trying to build more family friendly housing in town and it is really interesting. Of course Vancouver is still $$$$ so problem not solved, but I wish more US cities would take this into consideration.
Post by karinothing on Oct 22, 2018 5:30:09 GMT -5
Well, not true for us since we are currently researching new cars. I would love to buy an electric or hybrid for our next one, but I am not sure it will happen. DH really wants a vehicle with AWD and there are limited electric/hybrid options with AWD. We both can technically take the bus to work but for me it takes 5 minutes to drive or 58 minutes on a bus. DH's commute on bus or car can be similar time but since most of the time he is meeting me at some sports practice after work it makes the bus difficult. I guess I think public transportation is great if you have a set schedule and always go to the same place every day, but if you need to go to a million activities it makes things hard. And I know that I live in an area where I have a lot more options than many people.
Impossible. It takes my husband 45-60 minutes to get to work (mass transit would take him much longer), and our son goes to school in a different town. My car doubles as an office / living room. I spend significant time in my car running errands, getting him to/from school, and to activities. In no world is renting, borrowing, or Ubering more feasible when you're a suburban stay at home mom.
Those are literally all choices you made, though, and if we disincentivize some of them as a society, people can more easily make more transit-friendly choices.
Look at Singapore. It costs at least $50k to get a permit to then actually be able to buy a car. Disincentivizes people, to say the least. Then, of course, they take the carrot approach, which is dense building and plenty of transit options.
My parents just downsized their cars. My stepfather had a Ford Focus and my mom had a Rav-4. They traded both in and are now sharing a Ford EcoSport, which is smaller than the Rav-4 but still AWD (they live in upstate NY). These are not people who are normally considerate of the environment, so that gives me hope. My mom has to drive a lot for work to meet with her clients and her husband is retired, but can walk to the post office, convenience store, a small grocery store, etc.