Is the Women's March melting down?

[WOT?*]

www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/276694/is-the-womens-march-melting-down?fbclid=IwAR097ZeR90r-aCV39iMCkFdoDlRQpXxh6_6TbGntb7EVoB5sWFNRaeWwllg

We've discussed some of the founders/board of the Women's March in the past. This is an interesting (and long) article detailing some of the problems and issues surrounding the Women's March in it's current state.

“There is no LGBTQIA representation on their Board of Directors—this is not an intersectional organization—it’s smoke and mirrors,” said Morganfield. “Their Disability Caucus has one person in it. One. Their Veterans Caucus HAD one person in it. They no longer have a Veterans Caucus.” There are also no Jewish members and board members are or have been openly anti-Semitic.

[tacokick]

I’m not too surprised, it came out of no where really quickly and became so popular/famous there is bound to be issues.

Their ignoring of Jewish issues and lack of Jewish leadership has been striking. Jewish women have long been at the front of the feminist movement so to ignore them entirely seemed very strange.

The ties to Farrakhan are extremely odd and off message IMO.

[seeyalater52]

It's been melting down from the start. It served a purpose in a specific moment in time (I'm using past tense here intentionally) but how it came to be is not how political or social movements are really built.

[NewOrleans]

I'm sure it is, and I'm sure pussy hats are the cause of it. (I am serious. They are ADAMANT about those hats' importance and are utterly uninterested in the point that not all pussies are pink and not all women have pussies anyway).

[downtoearth]

Wait, I'm not all the way through, but you guys, the women accused of being anti-sematic are WOC and deny this vehemently. Why are we assuming that is true right away. The article is long, so I admit that I may not get through all of it before having to take a call, but it's not okay to take one side of the initial conversation and jump to conclusions...

It was there that, as the women were opening up about their backgrounds and personal investments in creating a resistance movement to Trump, Perez and Mallory allegedly first asserted that Jewish people bore a special collective responsibility as exploiters of black and brown people—and even, according to a close secondhand source, claimed that Jews were proven to have been leaders of the American slave trade. These are canards popularized by The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews, a book published by Louis Farrakhan’s Nation of Islam—“the bible of the new anti-Semitism,” according to Henry Louis Gates Jr., who noted in 1992: “Among significant sectors of the black community, this brief has become a credo of a new philosophy of black self-affirmation.”

To this day, Mallory and Bland deny any such statements were ever uttered, either at the first meeting or at Mallory’s apartment. “There was a particular conversation around how white women had centered themselves—and also around the dynamics of racial justice and why it was essential that racial justice be a part of the women’s rights conversation,” remembered Bland. But she and Mallory insisted it never had anything to do with Jews. “Carmen and I were very clear at that [first] meeting that we would not take on roles as workers or staff, but that we had to be in a leadership position in order for us to engage in the march,” Mallory told Tablet, in an interview last week, adding that they had been particularly sensitive to the fact that they had been invited to the meeting by white women, and wanted to be sure they weren’t about to enter into an unfair arrangement. “Other than that, there was no particular conversation about Jewish women, or any particular group of people.”

I wish a Jewish woman activist was included in the leadership, but I also don't believe that Mallory and Bland were outright anti-Semitic. Plus this article is from Jewish magazine that I know nothing about, so I'm fine if someone let's me know I'm off base here and says that the heresy in the article is probably founded in truth.

[downtoearth]

OMG - the more I read, it's just a mess. Why are these activists with professional backgrounds so unprofessional? I know this is mostly told from a few of the participants POV, but I also don't understand how unprofessional so many of their meetings and discussions were.

[seeyalater52]

Dec 11, 2018 14:34:45 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

OMG - the more I read, it's just a mess. Why are these activists with professional backgrounds so unprofessional? I know this is mostly told from a few of the participants POV, but I also don't understand how unprofessional so many of their meetings and discussions were.

Is it bad to admit that I found about 0% of it surprising? Clearly I spend too much time in shitshow advocacy spaces. 

[tacokick]

Dec 11, 2018 14:23:24 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Wait, I'm not all the way through, but you guys, the women accused of being anti-sematic are WOC and deny this vehemently. Why are we assuming that is true right away. The article is long, so I admit that I may not get through all of it before having to take a call, but it's not okay to take one side of the initial conversation and jump to conclusions...

It was there that, as the women were opening up about their backgrounds and personal investments in creating a resistance movement to Trump, Perez and Mallory allegedly first asserted that Jewish people bore a special collective responsibility as exploiters of black and brown people—and even, according to a close secondhand source, claimed that Jews were proven to have been leaders of the American slave trade. These are canards popularized by The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews, a book published by Louis Farrakhan’s Nation of Islam—“the bible of the new anti-Semitism,” according to Henry Louis Gates Jr., who noted in 1992: “Among significant sectors of the black community, this brief has become a credo of a new philosophy of black self-affirmation.”

To this day, Mallory and Bland deny any such statements were ever uttered, either at the first meeting or at Mallory’s apartment. “There was a particular conversation around how white women had centered themselves—and also around the dynamics of racial justice and why it was essential that racial justice be a part of the women’s rights conversation,” remembered Bland. But she and Mallory insisted it never had anything to do with Jews. “Carmen and I were very clear at that [first] meeting that we would not take on roles as workers or staff, but that we had to be in a leadership position in order for us to engage in the march,” Mallory told Tablet, in an interview last week, adding that they had been particularly sensitive to the fact that they had been invited to the meeting by white women, and wanted to be sure they weren’t about to enter into an unfair arrangement. “Other than that, there was no particular conversation about Jewish women, or any particular group of people.”

I wish a Jewish woman activist was included in the leadership, but I also don't believe that Mallory and Bland were outright anti-Semitic. Plus this article is from Jewish magazine that I know nothing about, so I'm fine if someone let's me know I'm off base here and says that the heresy in the article is probably founded in truth.

There have been stories about their antisemitism and other issues in the news all year.

www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/opinion/womens-march-progressives-hate.html

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/womens-march/555122/

nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/03/is-it-so-hard-to-denounce-louis-farrakhans-anti-semitism.html

www.cnn.com/2018/11/19/politics/womens-march-founder-calls-leaders-to-resign/index.html

This is just a long article bringing together all the issues they’ve been facing. They have been quoted saying antisemitic comments and using coded language many times.

The Forward is a trusted source for Jewish news; it isn’t some tabloid. It started as a Yiddish publication in the 1890s.

[tacokick]

Dec 11, 2018 14:38:03 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Dec 11, 2018 14:34:45 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

OMG - the more I read, it's just a mess. Why are these activists with professional backgrounds so unprofessional? I know this is mostly told from a few of the participants POV, but I also don't understand how unprofessional so many of their meetings and discussions were.

Is it bad to exist that I found about 0% of it surprising? Clearly I spend too much time in shitshow advocacy spaces. 

Yes! That’s why I was not surprised at all after I heard rumblings of this over a year ago.

[downtoearth]

Dec 11, 2018 14:45:18 GMT -5 rvan0905 said:

Dec 11, 2018 14:23:24 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Wait, I'm not all the way through, but you guys, the women accused of being anti-sematic are WOC and deny this vehemently. Why are we assuming that is true right away. The article is long, so I admit that I may not get through all of it before having to take a call, but it's not okay to take one side of the initial conversation and jump to conclusions...

I wish a Jewish woman activist was included in the leadership, but I also don't believe that Mallory and Bland were outright anti-Semitic. Plus this article is from Jewish magazine that I know nothing about, so I'm fine if someone let's me know I'm off base here and says that the heresy in the article is probably founded in truth.

I will come back to this later but I will bring the receipts.  Also, a reminder, unless you are Jewish or a scholar of distinction of Jewish history, you don't get to determine what is anti-semitic.

They have receipts later in the article. It's just amazing that professional organizers and activists are so unprofessional and against inclusion (of Jewish women and LGBQT) when they are trying to work toward inclusion and support for women. I shouldn't be surprised, but damn, there is a lot to process in that article.

Plus their inability to turn the focus from the attention of the March and organizers into actionable activities and laws at the state and local level is pretty evident.

[downtoearth]

Did anyone's Women's March state or local groups really continue after the initial March? I had assumed that they had faded away to other areas of the country, while other groups that were more local were springing up (Human's Rights Networks, Women's state voting-rights groups, etc.) to help keep people involved.

[anonymous]

the leaders are also heavily tied to the sanders campaign but apparently all sanders supporters are doing is shouting that this is LIES

[eclaires]

Dec 11, 2018 14:58:44 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Did anyone's Women's March state or local groups really continue after the initial March? I had assumed that they had faded away to other areas of the country, while other groups that were more local were springing up (Human's Rights Networks, Women's state voting-rights groups, etc.) to help keep people involved.

Yes but I live in a red area so some existing groups were involved from the get go. Another organization grew out of people coming together for the March with the goal of finding and supporting local candidates and issues. They work with existing groups in the area and made a big difference this past election even though they weren’t successful in many races.

[downtoearth]

Dec 11, 2018 14:38:03 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Dec 11, 2018 14:34:45 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

OMG - the more I read, it's just a mess. Why are these activists with professional backgrounds so unprofessional? I know this is mostly told from a few of the participants POV, but I also don't understand how unprofessional so many of their meetings and discussions were.

Is it bad to exist that I found about 0% of it surprising? Clearly I spend too much time in shitshow advocacy spaces. 

That is the worst... and then trying to read all the financials and the ties between the organizations/non-profits and the salaries being paid by multiple non-profits, or the legal staff just having someone sign a document on the fly as they leave on a bus from a retreat,and then the private meetings with personal attacks, and back-and-forth between members on calls with 40+ other state-level organizers that sounded like drama and less like support for local change efforts. All of that is surprising me... and it shouldn't, huh?

[seeyalater52]

Dec 11, 2018 15:58:00 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Dec 11, 2018 14:38:03 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Is it bad to exist that I found about 0% of it surprising? Clearly I spend too much time in shitshow advocacy spaces. 

That is the worst... and then trying to read all the financials and the ties between the organizations/non-profits and the salaries being paid by multiple non-profits, or the legal staff just having someone sign a document on the fly as they leave on a bus from a retreat,and then the private meetings with personal attacks, and back-and-forth between members on calls with 40+ other state-level organizers that sounded like drama and less like support for local change efforts. All of that is surprising me... and it shouldn't, huh?

Unfortunately, no. 

[seeyalater52]

Dec 11, 2018 14:58:44 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Did anyone's Women's March state or local groups really continue after the initial March? I had assumed that they had faded away to other areas of the country, while other groups that were more local were springing up (Human's Rights Networks, Women's state voting-rights groups, etc.) to help keep people involved.

Yes, but they are INCREDIBLY dysfunctional and mostly exist online. 

[Bernadine]

My local Indivisible group is still planning a march for this January.

[aurora]

I am very glad to have joined the original march the day after 45's inauguration. Being a part of such a huge event was the turning point for me from feeling broken to remembering all of the ways that I could and would fight.

That said, I never really thought that particular event was the best way to have a long-term movement, and certainly not an inclusive one.

[Michelle]

Dec 11, 2018 14:58:44 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Did anyone's Women's March state or local groups really continue after the initial March? I had assumed that they had faded away to other areas of the country, while other groups that were more local were springing up (Human's Rights Networks, Women's state voting-rights groups, etc.) to help keep people involved.

They have in Houston, probably because it is a blue city in a very red state.

However because of the lack of inclusiveness, we also had the March for Black Women in Houston last March. I am not aware of a march for any other women's group here in Houston, but that doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't one - it just didn't hit my radar. Although the March for Black Women wasn't hugely known for a long time before the event.

[AJL]

Antisemitism is highly prevalent in so many places and it's endemic in American society. I don't care if Mallory and Bland (correction: Bob Bland is white. Carmen Perez is presumably the other WOC who the poster above was referring to) are WOC. I'm still inclined to believe the story that they were expressing anti-Semitic views and I say this because I'm a WOC and I'm a Jew.

Being a minority does not preclude you of making anti-Semitic statements. Hell! Being a minority doesn't preclude you from making racially prejudice and bigoted statements.  Fighting your own struggle doesn't automatically make you sensitive to the struggles of others. So, grow up.

As for the Women's March, I never had any interest in participating. I was suspect from the beginning. My first feeling about the entire thing was "Where the fuck have y'all been for the last umpteen decades?" In fact, I still feel that way. I feel like the whole Women's March/Indivisible/Pantsuit movement is the same white-feminism bullshit that had dominated since it's inception.

So yeah... not surprised that it's imploding. 

[StrawberryBlondie]

Dec 11, 2018 14:58:44 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Did anyone's Women's March state or local groups really continue after the initial March? I had assumed that they had faded away to other areas of the country, while other groups that were more local were springing up (Human's Rights Networks, Women's state voting-rights groups, etc.) to help keep people involved.

The Minnesota one turned into a paid, ticket-only event at a relatively fancy venue. They claim you can claim poverty and get the tickets for free but the suggested ticket price is $25 and it's super hard on the website to find where to get free tickets.

[mouse]

Dec 11, 2018 14:58:44 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Did anyone's Women's March state or local groups really continue after the initial March? I had assumed that they had faded away to other areas of the country, while other groups that were more local were springing up (Human's Rights Networks, Women's state voting-rights groups, etc.) to help keep people involved.

Ours wound up being referred to the state DOJ for financial shenanigans.

www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2018/01/doj_criminal_division_investig.html

[msmerymac]

The Philly women's march last January had a bunch of controversies because they were really cozy with the police. This was clearly protested by WOC and LGBT individuals, who don't feel safe with a large police presence. That was the icing on the cake, because from what I had been hearing, by then I wasn't comfortable supporting them anymore. I did attend the March in January 2017.

[downtoearth]

Wow - so many stories of local chapters with just as much chaos and inability to be inclusive or outright financial misuse. We had an indivisible group, but the most active people were absorbed into two already functioning state non-profits that were not directly connected or in contact with the Women's March group (as far as my friend who runs one noted). They have continued to rally people around local human rights and indigenous peoples rights or get-out-the-vote efforts. Maybe it's good that a local chapter never took off and is basically a facebook group to share places and things to call your reps/senators about.

[katieinthecity]

This does not surprise me AT ALL.

[erbear]

Dec 12, 2018 11:34:49 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Wow - so many stories of local chapters with just as much chaos and inability to be inclusive or outright financial misuse. We had an indivisible group, but the most active people were absorbed into two already functioning state non-profits that were not directly connected or in contact with the Women's March group (as far as my friend who runs one noted). They have continued to rally people around local human rights and indigenous peoples rights or get-out-the-vote efforts. Maybe it's good that a local chapter never took off and is basically a facebook group to share places and things to call your reps/senators about.

I assume this is because the groups were largely run by middle-aged white liberal women (and others) who aren't well versed in diversity work and singularly focused on the issue of feminism while ignoring intersectionality. They rushed to create a movement in a moment in time without thinking through the broader issues. In Philly, at least, it seemed like the leadership was pushing women and using a lot of "yeah, but" when people brought up other issues (ie police brutality). 

I do get the impression from where I live (which is the heart of the liberal white woman pussy hat crowd) that many of the women involved are Jewish.

[downtoearth]

Dec 12, 2018 18:00:13 GMT -5 erbear said:

Dec 12, 2018 11:34:49 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Wow - so many stories of local chapters with just as much chaos and inability to be inclusive or outright financial misuse. We had an indivisible group, but the most active people were absorbed into two already functioning state non-profits that were not directly connected or in contact with the Women's March group (as far as my friend who runs one noted). They have continued to rally people around local human rights and indigenous peoples rights or get-out-the-vote efforts. Maybe it's good that a local chapter never took off and is basically a facebook group to share places and things to call your reps/senators about.

I assume this is because the groups were largely run by middle-aged white liberal women (and others) who aren't well versed in diversity work and singularly focused on the issue of feminism while ignoring intersectionality. They rushed to create a movement in a moment in time without thinking through the broader issues. In Philly, at least, it seemed like the leadership was pushing women and using a lot of "yeah, but" when people brought up other issues (ie police brutality). 

I do get the impression from where I live (which is the heart of the liberal white woman pussy hat crowd) that many of the women involved are Jewish.

Hmmm - I don’t know the people directly for a couple more local ones that started, but fizzled, but when I met the people, they were mostly young women - even young for millennials like late 20’s/early 30’s that were running ours, but they were mostly organizing and listening to middle-aged or older women. This is not scientific at all - but the two non-profits organizations that took on most of the organizers are run by early to mid-30’s women (one Jewish and one white).

[erbear]

Dec 13, 2018 9:36:53 GMT -5 rvan0905 said:

Dec 12, 2018 18:00:13 GMT -5 erbear said:

I assume this is because the groups were largely run by middle-aged white liberal women (and others) who aren't well versed in diversity work and singularly focused on the issue of feminism while ignoring intersectionality. They rushed to create a movement in a moment in time without thinking through the broader issues. In Philly, at least, it seemed like the leadership was pushing women and using a lot of "yeah, but" when people brought up other issues (ie police brutality). 

I do get the impression from where I live (which is the heart of the liberal white woman pussy hat crowd) that many of the women involved are Jewish.

Can you expand on this? Are you saying that Jewish women are the primary wearers of the pink pussy hats and don’t understand intersectionality? Have you ever heard of the ADL, Hadassah, or bothered to learn anything about Jewish culture?

Look, Jewish people aren’t perfect, but we have been at the forefront of intersectionality before it became a buzzword. Almost every time I’ve learned about something horrible going on in the world it is from. Jewish origination pushing me to help, by raising money, lobbying Congress, etc. Jewish women have a history of getting shit done, and that is one of the reasons that it is so disappointing to have no representation at the top of these types of organizations.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Those were separate thoughts. In my neighborhood, at least, there is a large contingent of women who seem to be what I consider the women I was referring to in the first statement, and they seem to be the people who are all over Facebook talking about feminism, but kind of glossing over other issues, including race, religion and gender identity outside of cisgender women. I only know for sure the religious backgrounds of the women I actually know personally.

My second thought was that, in my impression, there are many Jewish women involved in the organization of the marches here, which was counter to what I understand was happening in other places. Some of my Jewish friends are talking about oppression on the whole; others seem focused solely on women. I'm not making a judgment on that.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I am running on empty right now.


also, I'm Jewish, and yes, I am well aware of these things.

[msmerymac]

rvan0905, I appreciate your contributions here. I've learned a lot about modern anti-semitism and dog whistles (like the Globalist nonsense) from you.

[erbear]

Dec 13, 2018 10:35:04 GMT -5 rvan0905 said:

Dec 13, 2018 9:57:40 GMT -5 erbear said:

I’m sorry for misunderstanding! I was being an ass.

No worries. I appreciate your lens.