Lying

[mae0111]

What are the penalties for lying in your house? DD1 lies about almost everything. If she showered, brushed her teeth, did her chores, homework, fights with her sister. She sneaks food and lies about that.

I’m at my wit’s end. I don’t know how to address it. I need ideas. How do you address lying? DD1 is 9.5, for reference.

[rere]

DS lied about getting in trouble at school. He had just discovered the world of Wii. We took it for a week. He was devastated, but we didn't have trouble like that again. You have to find their commodity. What matters most at least with my 2.

[2chatter]

With my punishment proof child I had to lie to her - about what we were doing, what was for dinner, play dates ... and I told her I was lying on purpose to prove the point. She was super frustrated with me, but it worked. She was probably around 9.

I also praised the other kids for doing things and she wasn’t going to leave that on the table. “You never tell me I did a good job” cue tears. Did you shower and I missed it?

[mommyatty]

May 6, 2019 9:33:31 GMT -5 2chatter said:

With my punishment proof child I had to lie to her - about what we were doing, what was for dinner, play dates ... and I told her I was lying on purpose to prove the point. She was super frustrated with me, but it worked. She was probably around 9.

I also praised the other kids for doing things and she wasn’t going to leave that on the table. “You never tell me I did a good job” cue tears. Did you shower and I missed it?

Lying to show what it feels like to be on the other end is stinking brilliant.

My mother is, I think, a pathological liar. So I am incredibly sensitive to lying. It’s a hot button issue for me. So my thing is 1) I never lie in front of my kids, even little polite lies, 2) I call it out when I see others lying and tell my kids the impact it has (C’s mom said they needed to leave the party early because she thought C was sick when really they had another party to go to. I’m not going to trust that C’s mom is the kind of person who can take good care of you guys and I’m probably not going to invite her to be part of our group not because she left the party early but because she lied about a Big Thing: C being sick.), and if I catch a kid lying about something, the normal punishment is doubled. You called a name, which is a 1 min for every year you’ve been alive time-out, but you lied about it? Now it’s a 2 min for every year timeout. Now that DD is getting older, general punishment will be taking something away, like bedtime stories. Lying will double the time she loses stories.

[sdlaura]

My kids are still little enough (oldest is 6) that the things they lie about are pretty innocuous - like whether they washed their hands or brushed their teeth, in which case I say ‘no you didn’t’ and make them go do it. When the lies get more consequential, I love your idea 2chatter.

One thing that stuck with me from the book Nuture Shock is that little kids witness their parents lying all the time and that teaches them that lying is ok. So I try to be conscious of not telling little white lies in front of them - like not trying to say they’re younger than they are to get them into an attraction free or whatever. I still tell plenty of white lies - just out of their earshot . And of course all kids still lie - maybe if they don’t see me doing it I’ll just still have the high ground to tell them it’s not OK.

[mae0111]

Thank you all. At this point she’s lying about small things, but she lies constantly. Most of her lies are around food, hygiene, and her sister. It almost feels like it’s a power struggle.

This morning I asked her if she’s brushed her teeth yet. She said yes. I went into the kids’ bathroom to get DD2 toothbrush ready for her, and saw that DD1 tooth brush was dry. So I called her on it. She screamed at me for not trusting her. I told her that I can’t trust her if she continues to lie. She tried to close the bathroom door so I couldn’t see that she was NOT going to brush her teeth and lie again, so I pushed it open and watched her brush. She was very angry. This is an almost daily occurrence.

I’ve tried many of the things that work for you all, to no avail. Natural consequences are tough with this stuff - is she’s the smelly kid at school, she won’t recover. Because she lies about brushing so much, her teeth are actually turning brown and her gums bleed now. She’s going to regret it as an adult when she needs new teeth.

I’m at a loss.

[waverly]

It absolutely is a power struggle. What does her counselor say about this? How did her evals come back?

I would keep calling her on it. Stay calm and walk her back to the first step. On the teeth thing, would it be helpful at all to bring her to the dentist and have the dentist scare her about it/ talk to her about it? Or maybe the natural consequence which is probably $$$ because probably extra cleaning not covered is going to the dentist more often. Maybe the money comes out of her allowance. I know it is tough when your kid doesn't really care about punishments and/ or doesn't seem to care about consequences. DS loves TV so when I take it away it's a big deal and he doesn't do it again for the most part. But it doesn't sound like those strategies work with your DD.


Did the contract ideas work with her? Approach when everyone is calm, state the probably (brown teeth, bleeding gums), ask for solutions from her and then write down the responses. Maybe discuss the futility of it. I can tell when you shower or not, so why lie. Why are you lying on your teeth? For food we aren't at this point, but my sister has issues with her child sneaking caffeinated drinks and not sleeping while she hasn't implemented any of these yet, the solutions are to not buy that kind of junk drink/ food or she has to lock them up somehow. Junk food per se wouldn't bother me as much as the caffeine/ not sleeping and therefore acting out/ tantruming portion of what my sister deals with.

[mae0111]

waverly, so I've asked the dentist to talk to her, and both she and the hygienist spoke to her at the last appointment. We also discussed that she didn't like her toothbrush, so I bought her a really nice electric toothbrush. She promised that with the new toothbrush, she wouldn't argue about brushing anymore. That lasted about 2 weeks.

We had to stop her allowance because she was spending it all on junk food at school. So recently, she ripped a baby tooth out (that wasn't loose), in hopes that the Tooth Fairy would bring her money for junk. It's the 4th time she's done this. We warned her that if she did it again, the Tooth Fairy wouldn't come. She did it. Tooth Fairy didn't come.

I *may* have come up with something that has an impact... she said something about having a piece of gum, and I told her that she couldn't have candy or gum anymore since she couldn't be trusted to brush her teeth. She was shocked. She didn't tantrum, but she was clearly bothered. We will see what happens if she tries to chew gum at softball this week. All the other kids bring Big League Chew and Double Bubble, and she's always got a wad of it in her mouth.

[mustardseed2007]

mae0111, she ripped a tooth out that wasn't loose? How did she do that?

Did you take her to a dentist after that? That sounds...incredible! But like...in a kind of not great way....

[mae0111]

mustardseed2007 - it honestly makes me queasy. She wiggles not-loose baby teeth really hard until they are loose and bleeding, and then they come out. Or, she wiggles them really hard and then yanks. It’s awful. I’ve told the dentist, they warn her, no impact. It’s super frustrating.

All of this stuff lately, combined with DH being gone 11 of the past 15 days, is taking its toll on all of us. I’m not a nice person anymore.

[186momx]

Could yo do a set of house rules and post it on a main wall/doorway in the house. Along with a list of consequences for breaking a rule that kind of go with the rule.
-We only eat food in the kitchen/dinning room. Consequence for breaking that is doing dishes for 3 days
-We always brush our teeth before bed/leaving for school. Consequence for not doing this would be no treat for X days aka her gum.

It sounds like she wants the control and you aren't giving in which you shouldn't. I would also say something like if she isn't going to brush then I guess we have to treat you like your little sister and supervise you at all times. I know my DD (almost 8) hates it when I start supervising/helping with teeth brushing/showering.

The yanking baby teeth out just sounds horrible and painful. I'm glad you won't let the tooth fairy come because of that. Does she take her sister's money?

[traveltheworld]

mae0111, those actions sound pretty extreme. I can't remember where you are in terms of seeking professional advice, but is this something you could bring up with her psychologist/counselor? Or explore family counseling? I think there are some fundamental underlying issues (as I'm sure you already know).

But in terms of short term solutions, I found that the only thing that worked with my DS was finding a punishment that he actually cared about. Someone on here said that we had to find his "currency', and since DS was indifferent to most rewards and punishments, that took a while. We finally landed on keeping him out of hockey games. If he acted up at school, he'd have to get fully dressed for his hockey game, but sit on the bench. It only took 1 try for that to be effective.

We also emphasize to both kids that they can do something right 100 times, but if they lie and break our trust 1 time, it'll take another 99 times to build up our trust again. We have that conversation regularly - not in a mean way, and not when they have lied, but just sprinkle it in here and there.

[mommyatty]

What about, with the teeth brushing, you say that you’re going to physically brush them for her if she doesn’t quit arguing about it? I did that with DD with arguing about brushing her back teeth. The idea of being treated like a baby was enough to get her to knock it off.

The ripping out not-loose teeth? Oh my god. I hope you’ve told her counselor that. That’s fucked up. Like, a whole other level fucked up.

[campermom]

Way less concerned about the lying than the pulling out teeth that aren’t loose. You said that’s the 4th time??

[mae0111]

We have not addressed the teeth with her counselor because there are so many other huge issues. Stealing. Ragey tantrums that last well over an hour, several times a week. The stress of it all causing her sister to act out in school. Constantly battling over her screaming food, feeding what has been identified by 2 professionals as an obsession.

I’m exhausted. I’m failing her. But I don’t know what else to do. She’s in individual and group therapy. We see a nutritionist in a few days. I’m waiting for the neuropsych report - it’s been months. We are paying for so much out of pocket. Its thousands of dollars so far. I barely sleep anymore. I’m not a nice person to be around at all. Its impacting everything.

[campermom]

I’m so sorry you are going through this. I hope you find the right support that helps.

[mustardseed2007]

mae0111, I'm so sorry.

Honestly...you're better than me because I would probably not be trying to address her dental health at this point. Which isn't good but I'm just the type that tends to loose out on details when I have major issues in front of me like pulling out her own teeth. All that to say, I feel for both of you guys, I'm sorry, but you're not a bad mom or failing her. You're doing everything I would be able to think of to do and more!!!

[waverly]

Hugs mae0111, hang in there. It sounds like such a difficult situation.

[mommyatty]

mae0111- you are far from failing her. But it sounds like she has a serious mental issue, beyond the tantrums and not wanting to brush her teeth.

One of the best moms I know has a son who had to be institutionalized for a few months when he was 6 because he was violent. Turns out he’s schizophrenic. She’s not a bad mom. She has a kid with a big issue that required a whole lot of outside help, including medication. Note: I’m not saying your daughter is schizophrenic. She doesn’t sound like she is. (My friend’s son, for example, heard voices telling him to kill his mommy’s babies. He had a little brother and sister.) But it sounds like you’re dealing with a really big and scary issue here.

By my count, so far you’ve given up your career, moved her to a private school, found a community where she can play athletics without being bullied, found a therapist for her, and got her into group therapy. You are most definitely not failing her. In fact, you’re a flipping saint.

[mae0111]

The thing that is infuriating is that she can control herself. She can. She is perfect at school, at therapy, at softball (as long as I’m not coaching). It’s me. It’s me with her. And DH with her. It’s a power struggle.

2 professionals are not recommending medication. I tried for months to get her into different practices, but either they had 6 month waiting lists, or just wouldn’t even return my calls. She is simply not considered to be a severe enough case for most.

My next step is to get myself into counseling because I can’t handle her. My mom is like the DD1 whisperer - she can calm her down without spoiling her. She thought I was exaggerating for a long time about what was happening in my house every day. She believes me now.

[mommyatty]

I think you need to tell her therapist about pulling out 4 of her not-loose teeth. That is self-harming. I mean, think about that. They torture people by pulling out their teeth.

And yes, get yourself into therapy. Because if nothing else a therapist can help you with how to talk to her therapist to get the most benefit. In fact, I think that should be one of your stated goals.

[campermom]

What about family therapy?

[mae0111]

May 7, 2019 4:41:48 GMT -5 campermom said:

What about family therapy?

She won’t talk in front of me. We’ve tried it.

[waverly]

I think therapy for you would be a good idea.

On the power struggle issues, I get you are definitely in charge and need to be. But I was wondering a few things- could you clean slate it? Have a discussion and start all over. One book I read she said don’t say anything to the kid for a week. Like not ignore them, but they are 100% in charge of themselves for a week. It’s called Duct tape parenting.

Also side step power struggles when you can, help her feel more in control even if really she isnt because she’s a minor but kind of protect that feeling of control for her when you can. Everything comes from the relationship- compliance etc so it sounds like maybe a rebuilding of the relationship.

Also 9- teens is kind of the age when mental health issues appear. With the cognitive leaps / brain development and hormones. Our neighbor had this with severe depression, severe ADHD and sensory issues. He was also hospitalized, but seems to be doing OK now. Not sure if it is comforting, but it isn't unusual I am finding to see that come up at the age.

[2chatter]

mae0111 - you are so far from failing!! Failure is a final state - where something didn’t work and you give up or start over. You continue to evolve this situation with your daughter. Vent here as much as you need!

And...can you sign DD1 up for an activity and get a sitter (or your mom) for DD2 (the nine year old) one evening a week and have an hour or two to yourself? I think it would do so much for your ability to recharge. I used to hire a sitter to run every Tuesday evening and it got me through, sanity intact.

[mae0111]

waverly, I've tried that before. Maybe I should try again. Her executive functioning issues make it difficult to leave her completely to her own devices. I tried it this morning and she left without her snack. I cut up an apple, put it in a container, and left it where I leave her lunch box every day. She commented on it, thanked me for cutting it up, and walked right past it to walk out the door. I was already out in the car when she came out, so I didn't find it until I got back from drop off. And this will lead to a screaming match at pick up today BECAUSE IT IS MY FAULT.

I will think through what we can have her take over and where I need to step in. It's a good idea.

[rere]

mae0111, You are not failing but it seems the system is. Any child whose parent feels they need treatment/therapy should have access without a 6 month wait. That is a soapbox on our healthcare system, particularly mental health, that could go on for days.


Just a question, based on my own work, has she had any trauma that she had dealt with over the years? Sometimes behaviors stem from a traumatic events or situations. Situations that cause toxic stress can be considered trauma (like a family member with an illness where the child's life feels chaotic, chronic stress) Maybe even something that you wouldn't consider traumatic but had an impact with her. Has her therapist addressed this? Not all the time, but a lot of the time, you can identify trauma adult patients with mental health issues, substance abuse, self harm etc....

[mae0111]

2chatter, that's a good idea. DH told me last night that he has to head back across the country again next week, and I wanted to cry. DH wants me to just go away somewhere, alone or with a girlfriend... but then breaks the news that he's 3K miles away next week.

[2chatter]

Going away is a great idea! But it’s like a bandaid on a bleeding artery. Something every week makes such a giant difference. It’s the day to day that get you. Do both if you can - but especially when DH is out of town make sure you get time. It’s not therapy but it’s up there with it in terms of benefit. Put on your mask first and all that really is true.