Thoughts on this "civilian traffic enforcement" initiative?

[msmerymac]

Philadelphians are voting on whether or not to create an unarmed civilian traffic enforcement task force. 

Here's an opinion piece on it from the bicycle advocacy organization:
bicyclecoalition.org/why-we-support-ballot-question-4-and-how-we-want-to-see-it-implemented/?fbclid=IwAR3E2XCYcOqrmdbQ7GcWqjRBPwSdAZP-LAMQFSI91kV1F7tQRunRTYvSXzo

Some background: Parking and traffic enforcement in Philadelphia is HORRIFIC. The PPA (Philly Parking Authority) is a quasi-autonomous organization that runs the on-street parking and off-street lots. They are literally the basis of the show Parking Wars. I also say they are semi-autonomous because they are government controlled, but mostly controlled by the state government and one place in Philly where Republican appointments are common/likely. 

My first thought is that there are a lot of people who are not comfortable seeing police or police-like figures super regularly, and at best this is an intimidation tactic. Philadelphia is 43% black and 12% Latinx FWIW. I don't have statistics on LGBTQIA individuals, but I have had discussions with trans residents in Philadelphia relating to their fear of police. 

What are your thoughts?

[pixy0stix]

Would more enforcement help the problem? It seems like people just don't give a fuck what's happening, and a low level ticket won't help.

[orangeblossom]

No. No good will come of this, at least or for minorities.

[msmerymac]

May 20, 2019 20:28:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Would more enforcement help the problem? It seems like people just don't give a fuck what's happening, and a low level ticket won't help.

Currently most traffic laws aren't enforced because cops say they would "run out of tickets in an hour" if they ticketed everyone parked illegally, which... yeah. Because now there are no consequences for parking illegally! People park in medians, in the space right up next to the intersection, on sidewalks, in bike lanes. Oh! or there are loopholes in city laws, like that you can park in certain bike lanes on Sundays with a temp permit if you're near a house of worship, which in practice turns into people just parking in bike lanes on Sundays (and, really, all the time). And it's not unheard of for people to forge those temp permits, either. 

It would take some really sustained effort, which this task force may or may not be able to keep up with, to change the ingrained habits and entitlements inherent to Philadelphia Parking. So... maybe?

[NewOrleans]

More Permit Patties? Fuck no.

[wildrice]

I live (and drive daily) in downtown Baltimore. I didn't know why there were traffic cops around regularly, but I am guessing they are a part of this. I'd be curious to know more about how they work. My anecdotal experience is that I am always annoyed to see them because they seem to disrupt traffic more than anything. It usually takes longer to get through town on my way to work when they are there. I guess they may be minimally helpful during events.

I literally just emailed my landlord about a car parked blocking my apartment's garage...again...so I wish they would patrol my block for that! People seem to just do whatever they want here too. If I don't complain about multiple street issues within the first 10 minutes of my commute, I know it's going to be a great day.

All that said, I am not really a fan of untrained and unvetted people having power over others. I think there is too much room for harm. If you want to leave a ticket or tow a random parked car downtown, I don't think there is any disparate impact there, but patrolling low income neighborhoods or picking people out of traffic could lead to more harm than good I think.

[erbear]

I'm voting no on this one

[bowies]

If the authoritative group is controlled at the state level, that’s where changes need to occur. Organizing an enforcement task force with no real authority (essentially a parking militia) is a recipe for disaster.

[wawa]

May 20, 2019 20:34:00 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

May 20, 2019 20:28:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Would more enforcement help the problem? It seems like people just don't give a fuck what's happening, and a low level ticket won't help.

Currently most traffic laws aren't enforced because cops say they would "run out of tickets in an hour" if they ticketed everyone parked illegally, which... yeah. Because now there are no consequences for parking illegally! People park in medians, in the space right up next to the intersection, on sidewalks, in bike lanes. Oh! or there are loopholes in city laws, like that you can park in certain bike lanes on Sundays with a temp permit if you're near a house of worship, which in practice turns into people just parking in bike lanes on Sundays (and, really, all the time). And it's not unheard of for people to forge those temp permits, either. 

It would take some really sustained effort, which this task force may or may not be able to keep up with, to change the ingrained habits and entitlements inherent to Philadelphia Parking. So... maybe?

To chime in to this- I feel like unless youve spent time in Philly outside of center City it's hard to grasp the magnitude of the parking weirdness.

A few years ago they implemented angle parking on a lot of streets. Prior to the angle parking people would just double park. Routinely. Like, not to just run in a store to pick up your pizza or drop somebody off. Like a full two rows of double parked cars on residential streets overnight. If you needed to leave in the morning and were in the inner row you just hop up on the sidewalk and drive down that. ITS NUTS. Still happens in the places they didn't go angle (thankfully most of the streets in my mamas neighborhood they went with the angle parking)

Concrete medians...full of cars. Like people hop curbs to park in the middle of the road. And this is normal there.

I park on the sidewalk in front of her house on a regular basis. Not long term, usually just for unloading, but she had neighbors that do it long term. (One way street, the other side has parking, usually full). You just parallel park between the street trees. This is normal.

Bike lanes are a suggestion, though that's more universal. But Philly is the only city I know of that has an actual legal loophole for bike lane parking.

I'm intimately familiar with the traffic conditions in Baltimore and parts of DC. I lived in NYC for a few months and Pittsburgh for several years. Maybe there are other cities I've not visited/lived in with similar quirks, but compared to the ones I know well, Philadelphia is SPECIAL when it comes to parking.

Just for background on why this might seem like a good idea to the locals.

That said...yeeeeeah, I dunno about that.

[wawa]

Ok, I actually read the link now...

So they'd be more like the TEOs in Baltimore. That's interesting. So not like some jumped up Neighborhood watch. In Baltimore they're employees of the city DOT, rather than the police. Hence the civilian designation.

I'm actually curious if the city has been tracking racial bias in the citations by TEOs. Huh.

[msmerymac]

May 20, 2019 21:55:49 GMT -5 wildrice said:

All that said, I am not really a fan of untrained and unvetted people having power over others. I think there is too much room for harm. If you want to leave a ticket or tow a random parked car downtown, I don't think there is any disparate impact there, but patrolling low income neighborhoods or picking people out of traffic could lead to more harm than good I think.

I agree with this, although the impact of shitty parking enforcement when it comes to pedestrian and cyclist crashes may also disproportionately affect minority neighborhoods.

[msmerymac]

May 21, 2019 7:09:08 GMT -5 wawa said:

Ok, I actually read the link now...

So they'd be more like the TEOs in Baltimore. That's interesting. So not like some jumped up Neighborhood watch. In Baltimore they're employees of the city DOT, rather than the police. Hence the civilian designation.

I'm actually curious if the city has been tracking racial bias in the citations by TEOs. Huh.

The issue most people have is that the wording of the proposal is really vague.

[simpsongal]

DC is considering this as well....I wondered how it might work in practice. Seems like it may bring on more problems than it would solve.

[boiler717]

I remember reading about how de-policing traffic enforcement would be a benefit to POC but I can’t find the article. I believe the point was that if traffic violations are handled by unarmed “civilians” (not sure of the right word) that there would be less illegal searching, pulling over for false pretenses, armed conflicts over traffic stops, etc. Is this a similar idea?

[wawa]

May 21, 2019 7:12:14 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

May 21, 2019 7:09:08 GMT -5 wawa said:

Ok, I actually read the link now...

So they'd be more like the TEOs in Baltimore. That's interesting. So not like some jumped up Neighborhood watch. In Baltimore they're employees of the city DOT, rather than the police. Hence the civilian designation.

I'm actually curious if the city has been tracking racial bias in the citations by TEOs. Huh.

The issue most people have is that the wording of the proposal is really vague.

My Google is failing me. Do you have a link to it?

I think it's worth pointing out clearly that this is not deputizing random volunteers to write tickets. If it's anything similarish to Baltimores program they'd be city employees, but not armed sworn police officers.

Like how some cities have meter maids who aren't cops. But they'd also direct traffic and can issue moving violations.

The devil is in the details of course.

[wawa]

May 21, 2019 7:29:02 GMT -5 boiler717 said:

I remember reading about how de-policing traffic enforcement would be a benefit to POC but I can’t find the article. I believe the point was that if traffic violations are handled by unarmed “civilians” (not sure of the right word) that there would be less illegal searching, pulling over for false pretenses, armed conflicts over traffic stops, etc. Is this a similar idea?

I was trying to Google around and see if I can find anything about whether Baltimores program had an effect like this. The police are a KNOWN issue when it comes to racial bias. Have the TEOs had the same issue, or since their mandate is different (no pulling somebody over for a busted tail light and then searching their car for drugs for instance. They CANT arrest people, only ticket. Etc) can they help regulate the traffic without the undue impact on the black community? I don't know, but it seems possible. But I think that entirely depends on implementation, training and deployment decisions.

[msmerymac]

May 21, 2019 7:30:18 GMT -5 wawa said:

May 21, 2019 7:12:14 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

The issue most people have is that the wording of the proposal is really vague.

My Google is failing me. Do you have a link to it?

I think it's worth pointing out clearly that this is not deputizing random volunteers to write tickets. If it's anything similarish to Baltimores program they'd be city employees, but not armed sworn police officers.

Like how some cities have meter maids who aren't cops. But they'd also direct traffic and can issue moving violations.

The devil is in the details of course.

ballotpedia.org/Philadelphia,_Pennsylvania,_Question_4,_Public_Safety_Enforcement_Officers_Charter_Amendment_(May_2019)

[katieinthecity]

Hard pass. Trained LEOs and security guards are problematic enough. Civilians with power to enforce regulations? Abso-fucking-lutely not. There are myriad ways to use policy initiatives to reduce congestion. Philly is far from the only city in the world with this problem. Figure out something better.

[Deleted]

I know that orangeblossom and pixy0stix are right.

I just also want people to stop fucking passing on the right in the bike lane, running red lights, and texting while driving. How do we make people give a fuck?

[wawa]

May 21, 2019 7:56:45 GMT -5 katieinthecity said:

Hard pass. Trained LEOs and security guards are problematic enough. Civilians with power to enforce regulations? Abso-fucking-lutely not. There are myriad ways to use policy initiatives to reduce congestion. Philly is far from the only city in the world with this problem. Figure out something better.

So I'm not sure I'm in favor, but when you say "civilians with the power to enforce regulations", what are you picturing?

I'm trying to understand the fuck no level of reaction.

[pixy0stix]

FWIW, I don't think this is an inherently bad idea. It depends solely on how it is rolled out, etc. Most Code Enforcement personnel are civilians with the ability to ticket, so it's not unprecedented.

[aprilsails]

May 21, 2019 9:26:01 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

FWIW, I don't think this is an inherently bad idea. It depends solely on how it is rolled out, etc. Most Code Enforcement personnel are civilians with the ability to ticket, so it's not unprecedented.

In my City all by-law agents are civilian and responsible for tickets only. They work in conjunction with emergency services as required (police services handle after hour noise complaints), but they are not uniformed officers (no guns, protective gear only if capturing an animal, wear City branded polo shirts as uniforms, etc). By-law agents are responsible for all parking tickets on city streets and city operated parking lots and garages.

[ESF]

I saw the heading and my thought was





The article is ridiculous. It says that in a bunch of cities, it has been bad for minorities but also concludes that it works in a bunch of cities. 

People seriously need to stop trying to find ways to get public safety for free. Sorry the city's budget is tight, but if want safety and rules, you have to pay for it.  Hire and train professionals to do this work and invest in infrastructure to solve the problem.

[msmerymac]

I mean, I see that potentially the other option is expanding the police department, which falls under the FOP, which is known for being hostile to minority and vulnerable communities. But are people with less training and under a completely different system of regulations any better? Less racist? Less intimidating? More effective?

[pixy0stix]

I'm mentally thinking this through, so forgive me all the piecemeal posts. I bet if people really thought, they'd find many instances in their own city's where this is happening. We have civilian parking enforcement here, where they write tickets. It's an entire department in the city government not related to police enforcement. I think it's an important distinction that these would be employees and not volunteers.

[ESF]

May 21, 2019 10:36:27 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I mean, I see that potentially the other option is expanding the police department, which falls under the FOP, which is known for being hostile to minority and vulnerable communities. But are people with less training and under a completely different system of regulations any better? Less racist? Less intimidating? More effective?

I'd take my chances with the police over random vigilantes. Not because the police are less racist, but because they have more of an incentive to play by the rules. Citizen volunteers don't have to worry about pensions or promotions or squad morale or suspensions. Certainly the consequences against police officers are not serious enough to function as a deterrent for many bad actions, but we'd be nuts to say that a person who depends on a job to feed his family will always behave in the same way as a hobbyist harasser.  

[ESF]

May 21, 2019 10:48:49 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm mentally thinking this through, so forgive me all the piecemeal posts. I bet if people really thought, they'd find many instances in their own city's where this is happening. We have civilian parking enforcement here, where they write tickets. It's an entire department in the city government not related to police enforcement. I think it's an important distinction that these would be employees and not volunteers.

Agreed 100%.

Are these employees? When I saw "civilian traffic enforcement", I assumed it was a volunteer army, maybe accompanied by a small stipend or something, the way volunteer fire departments work in rural communities.

I'd feel differently if these were paid employees who got training and were dependent on their job, depending of course on how it was organized and managed.

[InBetweenDays]

Seattle's parking enforcement is done by civilians who are employed by the Police Department. They wear uniforms, but I'm 99% sure they don't carry guns. As a PP noted they are responsible for enforcing parking regulations within the city limits, but they also help direct traffic during parades and special events. www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-policing/parking-enforcement

The one time I was in an accident in downtown Seattle they were also the first ones on the scene to help and the last ones to leave (our car wasn't drivable and they were the only ones who stuck around to see if we needed help getting home - this was before we all carried cell phones).

[chchchia]

Okay, so I work in philly and my only input is, parking here has no discrimination. It sees no race, no gender, has no bias. it is truly its own monster and really hates everyone. Center City is bad, South Philly is worse. The only thing I think they should do is turn it over to the Canadians to make it nice and I don't think that would help.

[wawa]

May 21, 2019 10:58:57 GMT -5 ESF said:

May 21, 2019 10:48:49 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm mentally thinking this through, so forgive me all the piecemeal posts. I bet if people really thought, they'd find many instances in their own city's where this is happening. We have civilian parking enforcement here, where they write tickets. It's an entire department in the city government not related to police enforcement. I think it's an important distinction that these would be employees and not volunteers.

Agreed 100%.

Are these employees? When I saw "civilian traffic enforcement", I assumed it was a volunteer army, maybe accompanied by a small stipend or something, the way volunteer fire departments work in rural communities.

I'd feel differently if these were paid employees who got training and were dependent on their job, depending of course on how it was organized and managed.

In the cities they are referencing as having similar programs these are city employees. No different from code enforcement or inspectors in other departments. In Baltimore they are DOT employees. Paid about 34k entry back when they created the positions in...uhh..2000something. They mostly direct traffic through downtown and write parking tickets.