In Parliament tonight

[mrsukyankee]

MPs took control of parliamentary business for a bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Quite a few Conservatives came across and voted with Labour & Lib Dems - they won 328 to 301. After this happened and was acknowledged, Boris called for a general election. And then when he asked Corbyn to back the general election, Corbyn yelled out - AFTER the bill has been dealt with. 

So, now, we'll see what happens. They will return tomorrow at 3pm.


www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/03/boris-johnson-suffers-commons-defeat-as-tories-turn-against-him

[mrsukyankee]

What is unusual about all of this is that the Conservative rebels could lose their jobs - so they stood up for their beliefs. THAT is amazing.

[loira]

I was wondering when a no-confidence was going to finally, FINALLY end in an election...

[imimahoney]

I wish I understood British politics more.

Is Johnson likely out as PM?

[LoveTrains]

Can you explain this to me like I’m
Five? I read an article in the NyT and I’m
still confused about what is now on the table. It seems like earlier someone was saying a snap election was bad for the people who don’t want Brexit or a no-deal Brexit but perhaps I misunderstood? Could Johnson be out now that he lost the majority? But then I heard he was booting people from the party? (How can he do that)?

[biscoffcookies]

I am reading one of the people who was part of Boris's coalition crossed the aisle and joined the other side, so Boris now leads a minority. Can he still be prime minister if he doesn't hold the majority? I am only familiar with our Congress -- if enough Republicans said "f this, we're with the Dems," Senate Majority Leader McConnell would lose the majority leader position to someone associated with the majority.

[carmenere]

Sept 3, 2019 16:45:21 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

What is unusual about all of this is that the Conservative rebels could lose their jobs - so they stood up for their beliefs. THAT is amazing.

Can you explain how this works, since we don’t have anything comparable in the US?

[aurora]

Sept 3, 2019 17:39:39 GMT -5 biscoffcookies said:

I am reading one of the people who was part of Boris's coalition crossed the aisle and joined the other side, so Boris now leads a minority. Can he still be prime minister if he doesn't hold the majority? I am only familiar with our Congress -- if enough Republicans said "f this, we're with the Dems," Senate Majority Leader McConnell would lose the majority leader position to someone associated with the majority.

Yeah, I was confused by the permanence if what happened, too. The article I read made it sound like since there was a deserter, the conservatives have lost power, not just something for this vote. But, I don't pretend to understand fully.

[aprilsails]

Sept 3, 2019 18:02:34 GMT -5 carmenere said:

Sept 3, 2019 16:45:21 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

What is unusual about all of this is that the Conservative rebels could lose their jobs - so they stood up for their beliefs. THAT is amazing.

Can you explain how this works, since we don’t have anything comparable in the US?

Based on my understanding they won’t lose their jobs unless they get voted out in the next election or they choose not to run in the next election, where it is unlikely that the Conservative party will back them and they would have to run as independents. If they have a cabinet minister position within the Conservative caucus they have also forfeited that power.

[aprilsails]

Sept 3, 2019 18:15:06 GMT -5 aurora said:

Sept 3, 2019 17:39:39 GMT -5 biscoffcookies said:

I am reading one of the people who was part of Boris's coalition crossed the aisle and joined the other side, so Boris now leads a minority. Can he still be prime minister if he doesn't hold the majority? I am only familiar with our Congress -- if enough Republicans said "f this, we're with the Dems," Senate Majority Leader McConnell would lose the majority leader position to someone associated with the majority.

Yeah, I was confused by the permanence if what happened, too. The article I read made it sound like since there was a deserter, the conservatives have lost power, not just something for this vote. But, I don't pretend to understand fully.

He can continue to lead the government with a minority as long as there is no vote of non-confidence and he doesn’t call an election. Generally in a minority government situation if the leader calls an election the government is collapsed and an election date set. It appears as though Cornyn, who now holds the majority of lawmakers together in a coalition, has whipped the vote so that Johnson cannot pass an election bill until the existing bills on the table(particularly the No-Deal Brexit Bill) have been processed.

[cville]

Sometimes I think our version of representative democracy is weird, but then I try to understand parliamentary systems and I'm like, yeah, I'm good.


I take from this BoJo is a fucking ineffective jackass who will have trouble with the hard Brexit is little, grinchy heart desires. Ha ha ha ha ha.

[katfco]

The fact that he caused someone to literally cross the aisle and change parties is kind of delicious to me. I love that finally someone’s government is standing up to their fascist.

Granted, I don’t understand any of it, but it seems like a positive thing.

[BicycleBride]

This makes me really want to have a better understanding of the parliamentary system of government because I just do not get it. Is there like a Parliament for Dummies book?

Are Tory and Conservative the same thing? Is it
-Tory is to Conservative as GOP is to Republican
OR
-Tory is to Conservative as conservative is to Republican
OR
-Something else entirely?

[rupertpenny]

Sept 3, 2019 18:51:17 GMT -5 BicycleBride said:

This makes me really want to have a better understanding of the parliamentary system of government because I just do not get it. Is there like a Parliament for Dummies book?

Are Tory and Conservative the same thing? Is it
-Tory is to Conservative as GOP is to Republican
OR
-Tory is to Conservative as conservative is to Republican
OR
-Something else entirely?

The former. Tory is a nickname for the Conservative Party.

[aprilsails]

Sept 3, 2019 18:51:17 GMT -5 BicycleBride said:

This makes me really want to have a better understanding of the parliamentary system of government because I just do not get it. Is there like a Parliament for Dummies book?

Are Tory and Conservative the same thing? Is it
-Tory is to Conservative as GOP is to Republican
OR
-Tory is to Conservative as conservative is to Republican
OR
-Something else entirely?

Tory is slang for Conservative which nominally is equivalent to the Republicans in terms of policy priorities. I’m not 100% on the British Conservatives, but Canadian Conservatives are actually considerably Left of American Democrats on many policy positions. So the names somewhat coordinate, but are not entirely equivalent.

You guys are putting my minor in Poli Sci (mostly related to parliamentary politics but I did take an American Politics class) to the test tonight!

[lolo]

Anyone wanting to geek out on stuff like Parliamentary democracy vs American democracy, this is a great read: smile.amazon.com/How-Democratic-American-Constitution-Second/dp/0300095244/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=how+democratic+is+the+american+constitution+by+robert+dahl&qid=1567558898&s=gateway&sprefix=how+Democratic&sr=8-1.

[miniroller]

Sept 3, 2019 20:02:32 GMT -5 lolo said:

Anyone wanting to geek out on stuff like Parliamentary democracy vs American democracy, this is a great read: smile.amazon.com/How-Democratic-American-Constitution-Second/dp/0300095244/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=how+democratic+is+the+american+constitution+by+robert+dahl&qid=1567558898&s=gateway&sprefix=how+Democratic&sr=8-1.

THANKS lolo!! I’d had this on a wish list & it’s now added to my cart...

[lolo]

Sept 3, 2019 20:06:59 GMT -5 miniroller said:

Sept 3, 2019 20:02:32 GMT -5 lolo said:

Anyone wanting to geek out on stuff like Parliamentary democracy vs American democracy, this is a great read: smile.amazon.com/How-Democratic-American-Constitution-Second/dp/0300095244/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=how+democratic+is+the+american+constitution+by+robert+dahl&qid=1567558898&s=gateway&sprefix=how+Democratic&sr=8-1.

THANKS lolo!! I’d had this on a wish list & it’s now added to my cart...

It is, and I'm in earnest, as riveting as political theory gets. I hope you enjoy!

[mrsukyankee]

Today's updates:

Tory Rory Stewart sacked by text while he accepted politician of the year award
The former Cabinet minister stood for Tory leadership two months ago - but he's one of 21 MPs brutally purged by Boris Johnson over Brexit. (It's in more than the Mirror, but if it's in the Mirror, a more Brexitee paper, that says something).


A few bits and bobs:

- With 289 seats, Boris Johnson now has fewer MPs than any prime minister since Ramsay MacDonald in 1929.
- More than 100,000 people registered to vote within 48 hours in the UK with young people taking up most of the votes
- Sajid Javid announces £2bn for Brexit delivery next year. There will be more support for business readiness and to prepare Britain’s ports for a no-deal Brexit. 

[jamaicam]

Sept 4, 2019 7:52:44 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

- More than 100,000 people registered to vote within 48 hours in the UK with young people taking up most of the votes

That is amazing! 

A quick Parliamentary politics 101 for those who were asking. 

The Prime Minister is the person who has the confidence of the majority of the MPs (Members of Parliament) - the Queen invites the person she thinks has confidence of the majority of the MPs to form a government. You vote for your MP and your MP chooses the PM. You do not vote separately for the Prime Minister. 

There are 2 main parties in the UK - Conservatives (aka Tories, Boris Johnson's set) and Labour (Corbyn). Tories are closer to Republicans, Labour closer to Democrats (also similar issues with some people pushing to move more to the left and others wanting to be more centrist). 

However to complicate things, there are also some smaller, issues or region based parties. These traditionally line with certain parties (eg Greens with Labour, DUP with Tories). At the last general election, the Tories on their own did not quite has a majority on their own to form the government but were able to count on the DUP votes to form their government. The DUP is a very conservative Irish party so that brought about certain issues... 

To complicate things even further, there is a third party which usually gets more MPs than the little ones - the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems are traditionally the centre group. In the past they would have aligned more with Labour than Tories but in the election before last, they went into collation with the Tories but they didn't do that after the more recent election.

How do they all stand? 
The Lib Dems are 100% pro EU and want to Remain at all costs. 
The Tories are split - some want to do hard Brexit, some want soft Brexit and some want to stay. 
The Labour party is also split - they are against hard Brexit and probably majority want to stay in EU. But they also have a lot of MPs who are from poorer constituencies which voted for Brexit (a bit like poor Americans voting for Republicans because they are scared and believe that foreigners are taking away their jobs). So it is still uncertain if there is a general election what the Labour party will say about Brexit - Remain or soft exit. 

Hope that all makes some sense!

mrsukyankee how did I do?!

[downtoearth]

Sept 3, 2019 16:45:21 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

What is unusual about all of this is that the Conservative rebels could lose their jobs - so they stood up for their beliefs. THAT is amazing.

When I was listening to NPR this morning, I kept thinking about the thread yesterday. What a turn of events and so interesting to see Parliament taking the agenda back...

[mcsangel2]

From what I saw yesterday, it looks to me that not only have the Tories lost the majority; even though they have more seats than any other single party, I think that Labour might be able to agree to a coalition with other parties to make a government. That's good news if an election goes forward.

The question in my household is, IF there is a no confidence vote and IF there is an election and IFFFF Labour gets in...will Jeremy Corbyn call for another Brexit referendum? I'm just not sure how likely that is.

[mbcdefg]

UK MPs vote by 329 to 300 to back a bill aimed at blocking a no-deal #Brexit on 31 October

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49557734

[mrsukyankee]

Sept 4, 2019 11:59:53 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

From what I saw yesterday, it looks to me that not only have the Tories lost the majority; even though they have more seats than any other single party, I think that Labour might be able to agree to a coalition with other parties to make a government. That's good news if an election goes forward.

The question in my household is, IF there is a no confidence vote and IF there is an election and IFFFF Labour gets in...will Jeremy Corbyn call for another Brexit referendum? I'm just not sure how likely that is.

THAT is the big question that is on everyone's mind. He is really being pushed to do so and I think the Lib Dems won't join him in a coalition gov't without that being assured. But what would be even better is if they just end up say, sorry, Brexit of any sort won't really work due to the Irish backstop and what it will do to our economy, so let's just stay (this is my fantasy).


jamaicam, perfectly done!

[mcsangel2]

Sept 4, 2019 12:51:34 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

Sept 4, 2019 11:59:53 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

From what I saw yesterday, it looks to me that not only have the Tories lost the majority; even though they have more seats than any other single party, I think that Labour might be able to agree to a coalition with other parties to make a government. That's good news if an election goes forward.

The question in my household is, IF there is a no confidence vote and IF there is an election and IFFFF Labour gets in...will Jeremy Corbyn call for another Brexit referendum? I'm just not sure how likely that is.

THAT is the big question that is on everyone's mind. He is really being pushed to do so and I think the Lib Dems won't join him in a coalition gov't without that being assured. But what would be even better is if they just end up say, sorry, Brexit of any sort won't really work due to the Irish backstop and what it will do to our economy, so let's just stay (this is my fantasy).


jamaicam , perfectly done!

See, I think a second referendum would be crazy, but just to ignore the initial one all together to be madness!!! (to be clear, I think Brexit is a terrible idea. But I think ignoring the political process is also a bad idea).

ETA: Fuck David Cameron.

[mrsukyankee]

mcsangel2, it wouldn't actually be ignoring political process at all. As it was an advisory vote, it means that the Parliament was in charge of making the decision for the country and what is good for the country. We had an election after Brexit and ended up choosing a lot of people who are now putting country before party (and vote) and so it would make sense for them to make this decision. It's unlikely but it wouldn't be out of the realm of being democratic (as far as we're a parliamentary democracy).

Update again - they did not get enough votes to call an early general election - you need 2/3 of the entire House to call one and not enough voted yes. This is huge.

[cville]

Sept 4, 2019 10:58:52 GMT -5 jamaicam said:

Sept 4, 2019 7:52:44 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

- More than 100,000 people registered to vote within 48 hours in the UK with young people taking up most of the votes

That is amazing! 

A quick Parliamentary politics 101 for those who were asking. 

The Prime Minister is the person who has the confidence of the majority of the MPs (Members of Parliament) - the Queen invites the person she thinks has confidence of the majority of the MPs to form a government. You vote for your MP and your MP chooses the PM. You do not vote separately for the Prime Minister. 

What if the Queen doesn't invite the person with the confidence of the party to form a government? What holds her to it other than tradition? The Magna Carta? (Lol)


Also, is the "shadow government" the people that would hold the cabinet positions if the other side had the PM?

AND since cabinet members are MPs (right?), if they're fired from being in the cabinet do they just go back to being regular MPs? Or are the cabinet members MPs only because they're in cabinet? Or were they regular MPs and then had to resign when they became cabinet members and therefore were replaced as MPs?

[mrsukyankee]

cville, the ones who are fired from the cabinet will get to be regular MPs as they don't lose that position. Those that were expelled from the party as well are still MPs but they won't be able to stand as Tories in the next election (many will be independent if they stand).

The shadow cabinet is the cabinet of the major opposition party (Labour). They are basically trying to maneuver so that the opposition gets their way and they try to "work on" those in the opposition who they think they can get to vote against the main party vote.

The Queen most likely will never vote against party who won the vote. Nothing holds her other than tradition and the fact that she's getting paid by our taxes so doesn't want a revolt by the people (most likely).


Further update: despite a lot of pressure and an attempt to fillabuster, the House of Lords also voted to push through the bill preventing no deal (at 1:30am or so).

[LoveTrains]

Does stand = run? So they can run for office but can’t run as Tories?

[mrsukyankee]

Sept 5, 2019 22:50:49 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

Does stand = run? So they can run for office but can’t run as Tories?

Correct