NYT Mag: What College Admissions Offices Really Want

[wise_rita]

A long but fascinating read: www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR02n84dYPEgBzOSLCwSUekIObQfIi9vlc4QOyOsUzQw2wJbE3LrZV2kBbQ

TL;DR they want high achieving, diverse students but need rich white ones to subsidize them.  Also privileged kids have artificially high test scores thanks to access to tutoring and analytics make the admissions decisions, anyway.

[Velar Fricative]

While the conclusion is not surprising, the details about how Trinity had to narrow their list of admits was pretty enlightening. I shouldn't be surprised that cold, hard data is what drives these decisions, but it was still fascinating to read about. And it's been known that this is also why so many colleges are increasing their international student populations since they are ineligible for financial aid, so of course this would seep into other demographics.

This was already pretty evident when I started college in 2000 at NYU. I was a Pell recipient and most of my costs were covered due to need-based aid and some scholarships, but I could not get enough financial aid to allow me to live on campus because I didn't live far away so I commuted from home. However, I was surrounded by very wealthy students that were probably paying full or close to full sticker price and living on campus, although we also did have a decent commuter student population (which is why I never felt isolated or lacked a social life there). The subsidization of poorer students by those wealthy students was quite clear. But I received a top-notch education there and while I don't know for sure if the opportunities provided to me would have been there had I gone to a cheaper, less renowned college, I like to tell myself as I continue paying off my SLs that it was worth it lol.

[Velar Fricative]

Also, like I needed yet another reason to hate the US News rankings.

In addition, I feel like my cousin is the quintessential wealthy kid outlined in the article. He haaaaated school and his grades reflected that. Just refused to do homework and study, but always seemed fairly bright. Took the SATs with no test prep (so that's a difference from other kids there, I guess) and scored over 1400. We were stunned. That score alone got him into a respected local private liberal arts college and he ended up dropping out because he did not discover that the motivation of college and his parents paying sticker price was enough for him to actually want to make him study. So that part of the article really resonated with me based on IRL anecdotes.

[taratru]

I can't wait to share this with my rich, white seniors.

[rupertpenny]

Yeah, not surprising at all. I feel like this is even more obvious in graduate programs that do not fund everyone they admit. I did an MA in history at a good but not elite private school and it was SUPER obvious who was there because they were smart, and who was there just because they could pay.

The increases in foreign students is very noticeable. I wonder what some schools will do when it inevitably becomes passé or frowned upon by the Party for rich Chinese parents to send their kids to the US for college.

[W.T.Faulkner]

I knew a lot of this just because of the nature of my job (director of college counseling at a high-achieving but low-income high school), but the merit aid "death spiral" stunned me. Somebody should be paying the full fucking sticker price! lol

[rbp]

That article was so fascinating! And depressing.

[phunluvin82]

Wow, really interesting article. The in-depth look at Trinity admissions process was fascinating, if somewhat depressing. This part about their final, last round cuts: "at this point, with the tuition revenue estimates still shy of the trustees’ target, every student they were cutting was a full-need, low-income student."

What a shame. Feels like there should be some way to give more deserving low-income students a chance, while still being able to hit tuition targets.

I like that the article touched on what bullshit the U.S. News rankings are, and why.

[Velar Fricative]

I've also been pondering for a while whether we will see colleges closing en masse. Even after graduating from a respected private university for undergrad, younger people are the ones shouldering the burdens of student loan debt. Frankly, despite my happiness with my education, it did sour me on private colleges, and I simply do not feel that most private colleges (all but the elite ones) are worth sticker price or anything close to it when great, cheaper educations can be had at public colleges and universities. We have *a ton* of colleges in this country, and if demographic changes are pointing to decreases in population, and when the college graduate population has remained steady for decades (even if the number of students who attend some college has increased, graduation rates are still not great), I am just not sure how a college like Trinity can survive.

BUT, the flip side of that is that GOP-led state legislatures and governors don't seem to give a shit about public colleges and some are barely hanging on themselves (see: Alaska).

[rbp]

Sept 11, 2019 12:49:22 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I've also been pondering for a while whether we will see colleges closing en masse. Even after graduating from a respected private university for undergrad, younger people are the ones shouldering the burdens of student loan debt. Frankly, despite my happiness with my education, it did sour me on private colleges, and I simply do not feel that most private colleges (all but the elite ones) are worth sticker price or anything close to it when great, cheaper educations can be had at public colleges and universities. We have *a ton* of colleges in this country, and if demographic changes are pointing to decreases in population, and when the college graduate population has remained steady for decades (even if the number of students who attend some college has increased, graduation rates are still not great), I am just not sure how a college like Trinity can survive.

BUT, the flip side of that is that GOP-led state legislatures and governors don't seem to give a shit about public colleges and some are barely hanging on themselves (see: Alaska).

Yes. Many small liberal arts college are barely hanging on financially. Since Gen Z (the current population of traditionally-aged college students) is a smaller population than the Millennials (my generation), I don't know how the majority of liberal arts colleges will be able to find enough full-pay students to balance their budgets. 

[rupertpenny]

Velar Fricative, I do think some schools could, and maybe should, close. I don't any other country has anything close to our college density.

[lolo]

Sept 11, 2019 12:27:38 GMT -5 phunluvin82 said:

The in-depth look at Trinity admissions process was fascinating, if somewhat depressing. This part about their final, last round cuts: "at this point, with the tuition revenue estimates still shy of the trustees’ target, every student they were cutting was a full-need, low-income student."

What a shame. Feels like there should be some way to give more deserving low-income students a chance, while still being able to hit tuition targets.

I agree that this was an accurate depiction of what it looks like. My fairly elite liberal arts college went from need blind admissions to taking into consideration who could pay (need sensitive). It was need blind for truly top students but, yes, at the bottom of the class, they would pick people who could pay over those who couldn't. It was heartbreaking to watch, and there was a lot of on campus and alumni push back.

To its credit, the college did create or expand multiple programs aimed to try to mitigate the effect of the policy on disadvantaged students, but was not fully successful. The closure of Antioch College further spooked people.

[jigsy]

This was really interesting. I have never really run in the "elite" college circles, but I would have thought that this was the case.

Not totally related, but I am currently applying to do my postgrad at schools in Scotland. For the first time in my life, I feel like a super desirable student because I would be paying the highest tuition. It's kind of weird to think that I will have my pick of schools. And I don't mind paying full price because I understand that it means someone else who needs more help will be able to get it. (and it is still significantly cheaper than US schools of the same caliber)

[msmerymac]

Sept 11, 2019 12:49:22 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I've also been pondering for a while whether we will see colleges closing en masse. Even after graduating from a respected private university for undergrad, younger people are the ones shouldering the burdens of student loan debt. Frankly, despite my happiness with my education, it did sour me on private colleges, and I simply do not feel that most private colleges (all but the elite ones) are worth sticker price or anything close to it when great, cheaper educations can be had at public colleges and universities. We have *a ton* of colleges in this country, and if demographic changes are pointing to decreases in population, and when the college graduate population has remained steady for decades (even if the number of students who attend some college has increased, graduation rates are still not great), I am just not sure how a college like Trinity can survive.

BUT, the flip side of that is that GOP-led state legislatures and governors don't seem to give a shit about public colleges and some are barely hanging on themselves (see: Alaska).

This is definitely an issue that smaller private colleges in the northeast are gearing up to contend with. First, you have a larger and larger wealth gap, with everyone fighting over the elites to give them $$$. The elites, if able, will choose elite colleges. 

So you're left mostly with local/regional students, some of whom maybe can pay, but many of whom need aid. Like you, many would also be commuters - and their choice of colleges would be whatever they can access from their homes. (In Buffalo that's 2 SUNY schools, a large Jesuit college, and a handful of much smaller private and/or religious colleges.) BUT the population drain in the NE is a real concern, and in 20 years, colleges in the south and west will likely still be fine because they'll have a large enough pool of students, but people in the NE aren't sticking around and having kids at nearly the same rate as they once were. 

[pinkdutchtulips]

my former law school roommate was a Trinity grad ... her parents footed the entire cost of her undergrad there. she was one of the 'rich white' students they needed. 

CA has color/need blind admissions at least the at CSU and UC levels but given that the # of foreign born and out of state students are rising FAST, its no surprise bc they are paying out-of-state rates that are 2-3x what residents pay. 

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Sept 11, 2019 12:57:22 GMT -5 rbp said:

Sept 11, 2019 12:49:22 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I've also been pondering for a while whether we will see colleges closing en masse. Even after graduating from a respected private university for undergrad, younger people are the ones shouldering the burdens of student loan debt. Frankly, despite my happiness with my education, it did sour me on private colleges, and I simply do not feel that most private colleges (all but the elite ones) are worth sticker price or anything close to it when great, cheaper educations can be had at public colleges and universities. We have *a ton* of colleges in this country, and if demographic changes are pointing to decreases in population, and when the college graduate population has remained steady for decades (even if the number of students who attend some college has increased, graduation rates are still not great), I am just not sure how a college like Trinity can survive.

BUT, the flip side of that is that GOP-led state legislatures and governors don't seem to give a shit about public colleges and some are barely hanging on themselves (see: Alaska).

Yes. Many small liberal arts college are barely hanging on financially. Since Gen Z (the current population of traditionally-aged college students) is a smaller population than the Millennials (my generation), I don't know how the majority of liberal arts colleges will be able to find enough full-pay students to balance their budgets. 

This, and the traditional college-age population (at least in Georgia) takes a precipitous dip around 2025. We're going to see major enrollment problems. I work at a public state school and we're already forming a task force for curriculum and recruitment to attract "adult learners" in the next 5 years. 

[litebright]

Just an FYI -- that NYT story links to another one by the same author, and it is also a really good read. It focuses on efforts at UT Austin (now that they're offering automatic admission to the top 7% of graduating seniors from any Texas HS) to improve graduation outcomes among students who were top performers in HS but who either were minorities, low-income, or both.

They have some very good ideas on programs and approaches, but one of the most surprising things IMO involved research around simple messages to vulnerable students, in some cases delivered entirely online, around belonging and their ability to do difficult work through studying, that helped them deal successfully with later setbacks that otherwise were likely to derail their educations.

I'm probably not summarizing this all that well, but it's an encouraging read:

www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html

[sonrisa]

All of that rings true.

It misses another incentive to accept subpar rich kids: Rich, connected kids are more likely to be given summer internships with daddy's friend and jobs in the family business after they graduate - regardless of their actual college performance. So they end up looking like college success stories and are good on those post graduation stats for reasons that have nothing to do with their actual education.

[karinothing]

Sept 11, 2019 14:59:35 GMT -5 pinkdutchtulips said:

my former law school roommate was a Trinity grad ... her parents footed the entire cost of her undergrad there. she was one of the 'rich white' students they needed. 

CA has color/need blind admissions at least the at CSU and UC levels but given that the # of foreign born and out of state students are rising FAST, its no surprise bc they are paying out-of-state rates that are 2-3x what residents pay. 

I heard that it is nearly impossible for residents of VA to attend the university of VA because they want out of state tuition. It seems a bit ridiculous to me that a state public university could be put of reach for the majority of it's residents.

[georgeglass]

Sept 12, 2019 4:24:10 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Sept 11, 2019 14:59:35 GMT -5 pinkdutchtulips said:

my former law school roommate was a Trinity grad ... her parents footed the entire cost of her undergrad there. she was one of the 'rich white' students they needed. 

CA has color/need blind admissions at least the at CSU and UC levels but given that the # of foreign born and out of state students are rising FAST, its no surprise bc they are paying out-of-state rates that are 2-3x what residents pay. 

I heard that it is nearly impossible for residents of VA to attend the university of VA because they want out of state tuition. It seems a bit ridiculous to me that a state public university could be put of reach for the majority of it's residents.

UVA has 70% undergrad in-state students, which is pretty standard historically. Virginia used to fund in-state public schools well, it has dropped dramatically in recent years and the requirements (e.g., in-state %) have remained. It's a tough financial model.

[karinothing]

Sept 12, 2019 6:06:47 GMT -5 georgeglass said:

Sept 12, 2019 4:24:10 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I heard that it is nearly impossible for residents of VA to attend the university of VA because they want out of state tuition. It seems a bit ridiculous to me that a state public university could be put of reach for the majority of it's residents.

UVA has 70% undergrad in-state students, which is pretty standard historically. Virginia used to fund in-state public schools well, it has dropped dramatically in recent years and the requirements (e.g., in-state %) have remained. It's a tough financial model.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I obviously am very far away from my kids going to college, so my assertion was just based on rumors. Glad to know it is not as dire as it seemed, but yeah that is a tough financial model.

[georgeglass]

Sept 12, 2019 6:14:39 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Sept 12, 2019 6:06:47 GMT -5 georgeglass said:

UVA has 70% undergrad in-state students, which is pretty standard historically. Virginia used to fund in-state public schools well, it has dropped dramatically in recent years and the requirements (e.g., in-state %) have remained. It's a tough financial model.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I obviously am very far away from my kids going to college, so my assertion was just based on rumors. Glad to know it is not as dire as it seemed, but yeah that is a tough financial model.

Your friends aren't wrong that it's hard for kids to get in to UVA. In-state acceptance rate was only 36%. It's harder than it used to be, for sure, but it's not due to in-state/out-of-state (though parents like to claim that because the alternative is that their kid just didn't get in).

[karinothing]

Sept 12, 2019 6:20:27 GMT -5 georgeglass said:

Sept 12, 2019 6:14:39 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I obviously am very far away from my kids going to college, so my assertion was just based on rumors. Glad to know it is not as dire as it seemed, but yeah that is a tough financial model.

Your friends aren't wrong that it's hard for kids to get in to UVA. In-state acceptance rate was only 36%. It's harder than it used to be, for sure, but it's not due to in-state/out-of-state (though parents like to claim that because the alternative is that their kid just didn't get in).

That make sense! Thanks.

[rbp]

Sept 12, 2019 6:20:27 GMT -5 georgeglass said:

Sept 12, 2019 6:14:39 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I obviously am very far away from my kids going to college, so my assertion was just based on rumors. Glad to know it is not as dire as it seemed, but yeah that is a tough financial model.

Your friends aren't wrong that it's hard for kids to get in to UVA. In-state acceptance rate was only 36%. It's harder than it used to be, for sure, but it's not due to in-state/out-of-state (though parents like to claim that because the alternative is that their kid just didn't get in).

Even state flagships that weren't traditionally thought of as top-tier, like UGA, are becoming much more selective. The average SAT score (I know, but it's still a number touted by USNWR and the colleges themselves) among current first-year students is 1359. 

[goldengirlz]

Sept 12, 2019 6:06:47 GMT -5 georgeglass said:

Sept 12, 2019 4:24:10 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I heard that it is nearly impossible for residents of VA to attend the university of VA because they want out of state tuition. It seems a bit ridiculous to me that a state public university could be put of reach for the majority of it's residents.

UVA has 70% undergrad in-state students, which is pretty standard historically. Virginia used to fund in-state public schools well, it has dropped dramatically in recent years and the requirements (e.g., in-state %) have remained. It's a tough financial model.

I’m sure that also primes them to consider wealthier in-state residents to make up the difference. So what was once a solid choice for middle and lower income kids is now just as unattainable.

[georgeglass]

Sept 12, 2019 8:53:55 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Sept 12, 2019 6:06:47 GMT -5 georgeglass said:

UVA has 70% undergrad in-state students, which is pretty standard historically. Virginia used to fund in-state public schools well, it has dropped dramatically in recent years and the requirements (e.g., in-state %) have remained. It's a tough financial model.

I’m sure that also primes them to consider wealthier in-state residents to make up the difference. So what was once a solid choice for middle and lower income kids is now just as unattainable.

Exactly - the pressure just shifts.

[Coopertown]

Sept 11, 2019 15:12:35 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

Sept 11, 2019 12:57:22 GMT -5 rbp said:

Yes. Many small liberal arts college are barely hanging on financially. Since Gen Z (the current population of traditionally-aged college students) is a smaller population than the Millennials (my generation), I don't know how the majority of liberal arts colleges will be able to find enough full-pay students to balance their budgets. 

This, and the traditional college-age population (at least in Georgia) takes a precipitous dip around 2025. We're going to see major enrollment problems. I work at a public state school and we're already forming a task force for curriculum and recruitment to attract "adult learners" in the next 5 years. 

My niece is a senior this year and has been contacted by Valdosta State. She mentioned that she's eligible for neighboring state tuition. What is the goal of that program? To increase enrollment in general?

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Sept 12, 2019 11:05:03 GMT -5 Coopertown said:

Sept 11, 2019 15:12:35 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

This, and the traditional college-age population (at least in Georgia) takes a precipitous dip around 2025. We're going to see major enrollment problems. I work at a public state school and we're already forming a task force for curriculum and recruitment to attract "adult learners" in the next 5 years. 

My niece is a senior this year and has been contacted by Valdosta State. She mentioned that she's eligible for neighboring state tuition. What is the goal of that program? To increase enrollment in general?

Yep. VSU started that a few years ago since it's 20 miles from Florida and a couple hours from Alabama. With Kennesaw State and Georgia State growing a lot over the last decade, VSU saw their metro Atlanta pipeline drying up.

(If your niece is considering it, I recommend a campus visit! My mom and husband both graduated from there and my dad taught there for 45 years. It's a really pretty campus and some of their academic programs are really top notch.)

[formerlyak]

Sept 12, 2019 11:05:03 GMT -5 Coopertown said:

Sept 11, 2019 15:12:35 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

This, and the traditional college-age population (at least in Georgia) takes a precipitous dip around 2025. We're going to see major enrollment problems. I work at a public state school and we're already forming a task force for curriculum and recruitment to attract "adult learners" in the next 5 years. 

My niece is a senior this year and has been contacted by Valdosta State. She mentioned that she's eligible for neighboring state tuition. What is the goal of that program? To increase enrollment in general?

I don't know about the neighboring state tuition in that region, but in CA we have it with WUE www.wiche.edu/wue The goal is to encourage top students to consider public universities in neighboring states and there are benefits on both sides. The university benefits because while the tuition is discounted through the program, it is still 10% higher on average than what state residents pay. Most of those students aren't scholarship students, so they pay that full amount. Some schools also make it so only certain majors are eligible, so they can encourage applicants to consider majors with lower enrollment at their campus. Finally, students from neighboring states tend to attrit at a lower rate than out of state students from further away (likely because they can still go home for holidays or homesickness at a reasonable cost). For students, it opens up an option that might be too expensive for their family without that neighboring state discount and encourages them to apply someplace where they might be a good fit if the price is right.

Someone mentioned higher SATs now. You can't necessarily compare your SAT scores to what students get now. The scale has shifted. There are websites where you can put in what you got in what year and it will give you the today score.

Finally, the lower admit rate for state schools that was mentioned up thread. I don't know if this is true in all states, but in CA at the UC schools, it is true that the % of students admitted is lower. Part of that is simply due to more people wanting to go to college. But part of that is this idea that parents encourage their students to apply at all campuses so they can say they got in to all the UCs. This means that a student who may not have any interest in going to UC Riverside, for example, and is a good candidate for UCLA, might still apply to Riverside just to say they got in. The good news is, admissions officers are getting wise to that and turning down some applicants who might feel they are a sure thing but admissions officers feel they aren't right for that campus. I am hoping this turn by admissions makes it less desirable for students to apply to schools they wouldn't choose to go to just for the sake of saying they got in. My son is in 8th grade and there are already grumblings of getting your kid into all the UCs. It's ridiculous. 

[Coopertown]

Thank you ChillyMcFreeze and formerlyak. This statement:"For students, it opens up an option that might be too expensive for their family without that neighboring state discount and encourages them to apply someplace where they might be a good fit if the price is right." describes my niece perfectly. Based on the limited research I've done and my conversations with her, VSU does seem to be a great fit for her. I'll definitely encourage a campus visit.