I have a psychology degree and am a therapist, so clearly it's been useful. I'll say that I'm very thankful for my liberal arts education. It has helped me adapt to so many different roles and fields over the years. My college required us to do a certain number of upper division classes outside of our field of study (so for me, outside of social sciences). That meant regardless of what your field of study was, you were sort of forced into broadening your horizons. We were also required to take at least one third-world studies class and at least one ethnic studies class. Our required course series was very focused on things that helped us learn how to analyze the world around us and the media we consume. Many of the things we learned played into later classes. For example, one was all about diversity and the "isms" (not surprisingly, the class most of the white men hated). It was a good foundation for going into ethnic studies classes.
Especially with the way things are going in this country now, I think courses like these are critically important. So I very much see the value in a liberal arts education and degree. It helps make us better citizens in addition to helping with adaptability in the job market.
It got me into grad school and I'm a psychologist now, so, yeah, useful for me. The philosophy courses were incredibly useful for learning how to think critically and synthesize ideas. Which is what I do every day.
Chemistry major at a liberal arts college. My communication skills as well as my network from my alma mater have gotten me far in my career. I also met my spouse there!
Unpopular opinion: the first job out of college (or jobs, really) are more important in the long run than the degree itself.
that's probably why folks from highly selective liberal arts colleges do better. All the "top" companies still recruit there. Google, Apple, Microsoft, GE, etc are all recruiting at liberal arts schools that are ranked in the top 25 nationally... they aren't necessarily at your local regional liberal arts college.
AKA: How the Rich Kids Stay Rich. The board has talked before that if you go to the right school, it doesn't matter what your major is, or even your end GPA. It's all about the money that sent you there.
Post by ChillyMcFreeze on Jan 21, 2020 9:48:17 GMT -5
I went to a large comprehensive university and earned a pre-professional degree, but I've only worked and taught at liberal arts institutions. I'm totally sold on the liberal arts curriculum, even for students who pursue pre-professional majors. My work falls in co-curricular programs, and I don't think we can discount the value of those, either.
At the rate technology evolves, specialized degrees aren't any guarantee of employability anymore, especially if you don't break into your field right after graduation. Those skills are fleeting, but soft skills like effective communication, critical thinking, analysis... those will carry you through a changing field (or a change of field!)
@@@@@ . . . . . . . I am so glad you guys have posted and joined into this discussion. My daughter’s high school/district require that they establish a major as early as their freshmen year. There is sooooooo much push for stem but she just isn’t interested. (There is also soooo much push to declare a major and she is in 7th grade - argh!). I would push harder on engineering if I thought I could persuade her (no interest on her part) but am not pushing biological sciences if she isn’t interested because I make twice what a lot of biology PhDs make and it makes me so sad for them.
All that said, she seems to be looking at liberal arts. And while I'm ok with that, most of the other parents in her GT classes look at me like I am failing in my parenting for letting her choose anything but stem.
This thread has given me renewed confidence in supporting her interest area AND the opportunities that will still be available to her in the future.
I think it's absurd to think we want all our smart, ambitious kids to be engineers. (And I say this as a scientist.)
In defense of engineering, I learned a lot of really valuable things from engineering school even though I don’t use my degree. Engineering also taught me to think critically, and solve problems creatively. The vast majority of my classmates went on to do something other than engineering — like law school, teaching, business, etc. It’s not JUST science, it’s also a way of thinking and solving problems.
I am happy to hear that liberal arts degrees are “worth it” financially and I hope this means we are back to seeing the value in communication, seeing different viewpoints, etc. It seems like the “ideal” education would combine all of these components.
I think it's absurd to think we want all our smart, ambitious kids to be engineers. (And I say this as a scientist.)
Agreed! I think that engineering and STEM education in general is valuable for the type of student who naturally has a mind for it. My H was one of those students! Ironically, 9 years of school (plus 2 as a post doc), BS, MS, and PhD in Chemical Engineering later and he’s a software developer for a financial software firm because he couldn’t find an engineering job after undergrad, grad or post doc. Despite everyone assuring him engineering was the way to go, jobs weren’t nearly as plentiful as people let on, so he had to leave engineering.
I couldn’t have studied a STEM field. I’ve struggled with math since 3rd grade. That decimated my confidence in my academic abilities because I was left with the impression that only kids who did well in math and science were smart. I’ll be glad to see that bullshit attitude go away.
Post by susquehanna on Jan 21, 2020 20:44:47 GMT -5
I grew up in a rural, economically depressed area. When I was in high school, it seemed as if the school administration (guidance counselor, etc) and also the parents of classmates, elderly neighbors, elderly relatives, anyone who wanted to voice their opinion, etc, tried to pressure us kids to study for careers in the health care industry. "Everyone" with an opinion advocated for us kids to train to be nurses, doctors, pharmacists, physical therapies, physical therapy assistants, etc.
"Everyone" advocated for this because our community didn't have very many well-paying jobs, and all of the grown-ups had read or else seen on television that health care jobs were "good, well-paying" jobs.
Not to knock any of these career choices. However, I knew even in high school that a career in health care was NOT for me. (I earned a degree from a Liberal Arts college, and now I work in the financial services industry.)
I have NEVER regretted my decision to not pursue a career in health care.
Honestly, I hope that whenever I seek medical care, my health care provider DIDN'T base his or her career choice on the influence or pressure of a parent or other authority figure who forced the him or her into preparing for a career in health care "because this leads to a good, well-paying job."
I grew up in a rural, economically depressed area. When I was in high school, it seemed as if the school administration (guidance counselor, etc) and also the parents of classmates, elderly neighbors, elderly relatives, anyone who wanted to voice their opinion, etc, tried to pressure us kids to study for careers in the health care industry. "Everyone" with an opinion advocated for us kids to train to be nurses, doctors, pharmacists, physical therapies, physical therapy assistants, etc.
"Everyone" advocated for this because our community didn't have very many well-paying jobs, and all of the grown-ups had read or else seen on television that health care jobs were "good, well-paying" jobs.
Not to knock any of these career choices. However, I knew even in high school that a career in health care was NOT for me. (I earned a degree from a Liberal Arts college, and now I work in the financial services industry.)
I have NEVER regretted my decision to not pursue a career in health care.
Honestly, I hope that whenever I seek medical care, my health care provider DIDN'T base his or her career choice on the influence or pressure of a parent or other authority figure who forced the him or her into preparing for a career in health care "because this leads to a good, well-paying job."
As someone who also grew up in a rural area with very limited career opportunities, I heard a lot of the same. If you were smart, you were encouraged to be a doctor. Not a lawyer -- they were considered either shady and/or elitist, or at least that's the impression I got from people around me! -- but a doctor. Maybe a veterinarian if you liked animals.
I think there was another subtle element at work in that, in addition to what you've said. Sort of related to being jobs that they knew/knew of, healthcare jobs were ones you could come back and do in those type of communities, they really did provide anywhere from a solid middle-class to upper-middle class lifestyle depending on whether you were a nurse, medical tech of some sort or dentist or GP -- and because of the shortage of medical professionals, they were in fact desperately needed and are even more desperately needed now than when I was growing up.
Brain drain in rural communities has been a thing for a very long time, and I'm sure the folks who talked to us about career and life opportunities were aware of that, and maybe even subconsciously, urging us to do something that could potentially keep us in the community/in their realm rather than going off to The Big City, getting an education and never coming back. While also benefitting the community -- and maybe even them, personally, in availability and choice of practitioners in the future -- at the same time. ETA: And not out of any malice or not wanting you to reach your full potential, just thinking that you would do just fine with X job that might hopefully keep you nearby.
My boss and I were talking about an upcoming hiring process (essentially hiring an assistant/junior person for my role) and I mentioned this article. We need someone who will be able to not just put their head down and plow through their task list for the day - because we have plenty of people already who can do that. We need people who can communicate WELL with clients because this person will be helping me on key accounts and also getting some smaller accounts to manage on their own eventually. And that's a rare skill, sadly.
She said she had an acquaintance years ago who was really impressive. Definitely the impression that she was highly successful. She had a PhD in some type of engineering and another degree in something else. She worked for one of the big pharma companies near us and was pretty high up. Anyway, she said she wouldn't have been nearly that successful in her career if she were JUST an engineer. She got there because she could communicate with people. Look at all the people who do things like technical writing - they have to know STEM-related topics inside and out, but also know how to write, and the intersection of the two is rare.
I grew up in a rural, economically depressed area. When I was in high school, it seemed as if the school administration (guidance counselor, etc) and also the parents of classmates, elderly neighbors, elderly relatives, anyone who wanted to voice their opinion, etc, tried to pressure us kids to study for careers in the health care industry. "Everyone" with an opinion advocated for us kids to train to be nurses, doctors, pharmacists, physical therapies, physical therapy assistants, etc.
"Everyone" advocated for this because our community didn't have very many well-paying jobs, and all of the grown-ups had read or else seen on television that health care jobs were "good, well-paying" jobs.
Not to knock any of these career choices. However, I knew even in high school that a career in health care was NOT for me. (I earned a degree from a Liberal Arts college, and now I work in the financial services industry.)
I have NEVER regretted my decision to not pursue a career in health care.
Honestly, I hope that whenever I seek medical care, my health care provider DIDN'T base his or her career choice on the influence or pressure of a parent or other authority figure who forced the him or her into preparing for a career in health care "because this leads to a good, well-paying job."
As someone who also grew up in a rural area with very limited career opportunities, I heard a lot of the same. If you were smart, you were encouraged to be a doctor. Not a lawyer -- they were considered either shady and/or elitist, or at least that's the impression I got from people around me! -- but a doctor. Maybe a veterinarian if you liked animals.
I think there was another subtle element at work in that, in addition to what you've said. Sort of related to being jobs that they knew/knew of, healthcare jobs were ones you could come back and do in those type of communities, they really did provide anywhere from a solid middle-class to upper-middle class lifestyle depending on whether you were a nurse, medical tech of some sort or dentist or GP -- and because of the shortage of medical professionals, they were in fact desperately needed and are even more desperately needed now than when I was growing up.
Brain drain in rural communities has been a thing for a very long time, and I'm sure the folks who talked to us about career and life opportunities were aware of that, and maybe even subconsciously, urging us to do something that could potentially keep us in the community/in their realm rather than going off to The Big City, getting an education and never coming back. While also benefitting the community -- and maybe even them, personally, in availability and choice of practitioners in the future -- at the same time. ETA: And not out of any malice or not wanting you to reach your full potential, just thinking that you would do just fine with X job that might hopefully keep you nearby.
This was also my experience. I was really pushed to major in something practical. It was all I heard about. College was about job training, not about getting an education. This is why I have a bachelor's degree in finance that I never used.
that's probably why folks from highly selective liberal arts colleges do better. All the "top" companies still recruit there. Google, Apple, Microsoft, GE, etc are all recruiting at liberal arts schools that are ranked in the top 25 nationally... they aren't necessarily at your local regional liberal arts college.
AKA: How the Rich Kids Stay Rich. The board has talked before that if you go to the right school, it doesn't matter what your major is, or even your end GPA. It's all about the money that sent you there.
Yup. And even if you don't go to the "right" school, access to money and resources can overcome a lot. My H was a history major who went to a perfectly fine but not "elite" undergrad. Because his family was financially secure and lived in a desirable area, he was able to move back home after graduation, and wasn't even looking for a job. He spent his first 10 months or so out of college volunteering for a nonprofit in the field of history that ultimately hired him (for peanuts, which he was able to accept because he had no student loans) and set him on a very solid nonprofit management career path.
I believe a solid liberal arts education can set people up very well. But I think the data might be a bit skewed as to the success rates, because I question how many people who don't have a safety net even become liberal arts majors to begin with.
AKA: How the Rich Kids Stay Rich. The board has talked before that if you go to the right school, it doesn't matter what your major is, or even your end GPA. It's all about the money that sent you there.
Yup. And even if you don't go to the "right" school, access to money and resources can overcome a lot. My H was a history major who went to a perfectly fine but not "elite" undergrad. Because his family was financially secure and lived in a desirable area, he was able to move back home after graduation, and wasn't even looking for a job. He spent his first 10 months or so out of college volunteering for a nonprofit in the field of history that ultimately hired him (for peanuts, which he was able to accept because he had no student loans) and set him on a very solid nonprofit management career path.
I believe a solid liberal arts education can set people up very well. But I think the data might be a bit skewed as to the success rates, because I question how many people who don't have a safety net even become liberal arts majors to begin with.
I wonder about the bolded. I assume things are a bit different now than when I started college, as costs and loans hadn't quite completely blown up at the time yet, but this didn't deter me at all. Because in addition to having no safety net, I had no one helping me navigate the college process. I was definitely part of the "just get a degree" generation, but I didn't have parents who knew any better to try to help me think through whether or not I'd ever actually get a decent job with my liberal arts degrees. I think a lot of lower income kids, especially those who might be the first generation to go to college, are in the same boat. Or at least, they were. Probably less so today with all the push away from liberal arts now, but there are definitely a lot of kids who don't know any better going into it.
My H and I were both ELit majors; he had an art history minor and I had a history minor.
I finally finished my degree 3/4 into my career, so I can’t say the piece of paper made any difference. But definitely the cultural fluency boosted my confidence to hang in any situation. So I feel like it helped me get a leg up, especially when I was just starting out.
H is a data scientist now, and has been told that his English degree is a huge plus. No programming language he learned in the 90’s survives today, I don’t think, but knowing how language in general works—having a feel for the logic of it—helps him be a better programmer, adapt easily, and ask better questions. And it helps him write tactfully and productively when communicating with clients.
AKA: How the Rich Kids Stay Rich. The board has talked before that if you go to the right school, it doesn't matter what your major is, or even your end GPA. It's all about the money that sent you there.
Yup. And even if you don't go to the "right" school, access to money and resources can overcome a lot. My H was a history major who went to a perfectly fine but not "elite" undergrad. Because his family was financially secure and lived in a desirable area, he was able to move back home after graduation, and wasn't even looking for a job. He spent his first 10 months or so out of college volunteering for a nonprofit in the field of history that ultimately hired him (for peanuts, which he was able to accept because he had no student loans) and set him on a very solid nonprofit management career path.
I believe a solid liberal arts education can set people up very well. But I think the data might be a bit skewed as to the success rates, because I question how many people who don't have a safety net even become liberal arts majors to begin with.
::raises hand:: That would be me, and a whole bunch of people I went to school with (state school) that became teachers or used their liberal arts degree for a lot of other things. Don't be classist. Doing well doesn't mean UMC. We're out here being quietly middle class and just living.
Yup. And even if you don't go to the "right" school, access to money and resources can overcome a lot. My H was a history major who went to a perfectly fine but not "elite" undergrad. Because his family was financially secure and lived in a desirable area, he was able to move back home after graduation, and wasn't even looking for a job. He spent his first 10 months or so out of college volunteering for a nonprofit in the field of history that ultimately hired him (for peanuts, which he was able to accept because he had no student loans) and set him on a very solid nonprofit management career path.
I believe a solid liberal arts education can set people up very well. But I think the data might be a bit skewed as to the success rates, because I question how many people who don't have a safety net even become liberal arts majors to begin with.
I wonder about the bolded. I assume things are a bit different now than when I started college, as costs and loans hadn't quite completely blown up at the time yet, but this didn't deter me at all. Because in addition to having no safety net, I had no one helping me navigate the college process. I was definitely part of the "just get a degree" generation, but I didn't have parents who knew any better to try to help me think through whether or not I'd ever actually get a decent job with my liberal arts degrees. I think a lot of lower income kids, especially those who might be the first generation to go to college, are in the same boat. Or at least, they were. Probably less so today with all the push away from liberal arts now, but there are definitely a lot of kids who don't know any better going into it.
I do think that today might be different than 20 years ago, when my H got his degree. But this was his experience—no clue about how to navigate the college experience, just told it was his ticket out of the working class. When we met, he had $30K in student loans, not a very good job, and a lot of regret. But in the 18 intervening years, he and his HS friends, all working class kids who got liberal arts majors (4 white, 2 black, all men) have done very well. Not 1%er well (except for the actor maybe), but comfortable, loans all paid off, and having careers they like. And these guys all went to state schools, at least for undergrad.
So I know it’s just anecdotal, but for the people we know—my friends having come from the middle of the middle class, but same outcome—getting a liberal arts or fine art degree has worked out.
Yup. And even if you don't go to the "right" school, access to money and resources can overcome a lot. My H was a history major who went to a perfectly fine but not "elite" undergrad. Because his family was financially secure and lived in a desirable area, he was able to move back home after graduation, and wasn't even looking for a job. He spent his first 10 months or so out of college volunteering for a nonprofit in the field of history that ultimately hired him (for peanuts, which he was able to accept because he had no student loans) and set him on a very solid nonprofit management career path.
I believe a solid liberal arts education can set people up very well. But I think the data might be a bit skewed as to the success rates, because I question how many people who don't have a safety net even become liberal arts majors to begin with.
::raises hand:: That would be me, and a whole bunch of people I went to school with (state school) that became teachers or used their liberal arts degree for a lot of other things. Don't be classist. Doing well doesn't mean UMC. We're out here being quietly middle class and just living.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure my point was clear. I wasn't making a comment about jobs after school, but how one is able to afford the degree. Are people without a safety net are pursuing liberal arts degrees at the same rate that people with safety nets? I don't know the answer to that. But, for example, if people who can afford to do unpaid internships or volunteer for a while after college are overrepresented in the data, the data may really be telling us more about the success rates of unpaid internships, not liberal arts degrees. Especially given that increasingly, unpaid internships are how people get a foot in the door, even for middle class jobs.
I just looked at the actual table linked in the article. It is not comparing liberal arts majors to other kinds of majors. It's comparing the value of a degree from a private university specializing in liberal arts education to the value of degrees from other types of higher ed, such a degree in any field from a public university, from engineering schools, etc.
Here's what it says:
ROI of Liberal Arts Colleges: Value Adds Up Over Time finds that the median ROI of liberal arts colleges is nearly $200,000 higher than the median for all colleges. Further, the 40-year median ROI of liberal arts institutions ($918,000) is close to those of four-year engineering and technology-related schools ($917,000), and four-year business and management schools ($913,000).
So we don't know what's happening to kids who are majoring in English at commuter state college. We only know that people who are going to very expensive private colleges are making at least as much as engineers. While obviously people of all income levels go to these schools, the conclusion to draw from this seems to be more about the type of school than the type of major.
Yes, see teaching positions. Student teaching is unpaid, and the lower classes have been doing that for time immemorial. Famous quote from one of my teaching buddies when talking about eating peanut butter sandwiches during that time, "Wait, back up. You have money for bread?"
While the point of the article is basically that if you're rich you're going to stay rich, I think the larger question of, "Can someone survive with getting only a liberal arts degree from college," in this thread is also valid. Yes, it's anecdotal, but from my experience and the experience of others in this thread: yes, it's possible. We're here, and we're comfortable.
My mom the history major made $$$$ by going to nursing school so......
Late to the party, but Poli Sci and MPA here. Both degrees afforded me the flexibility to do different things in both govt and private sector. The ability to write, think critically, and apply all of my skills came in handy or what's known as "transferable skills." Instead of just saying "this is the technical way to do XYZ," I was versed in being able to understand the theory and the organizational culture of each space.
When you merge theory and org culture, I think you just come out better as an employee. Not everyone is able to do this - see one of my old bosses with her math degree who made a TON of missteps because she couldn't calculate the organization's culture. (Yes, bad pun intended).
Overall, I've had a very good ROI on my education, so I try to give back to my alma mater.
Yup. And even if you don't go to the "right" school, access to money and resources can overcome a lot. My H was a history major who went to a perfectly fine but not "elite" undergrad. Because his family was financially secure and lived in a desirable area, he was able to move back home after graduation, and wasn't even looking for a job. He spent his first 10 months or so out of college volunteering for a nonprofit in the field of history that ultimately hired him (for peanuts, which he was able to accept because he had no student loans) and set him on a very solid nonprofit management career path.
I believe a solid liberal arts education can set people up very well. But I think the data might be a bit skewed as to the success rates, because I question how many people who don't have a safety net even become liberal arts majors to begin with.
I wonder about the bolded. I assume things are a bit different now than when I started college, as costs and loans hadn't quite completely blown up at the time yet, but this didn't deter me at all. Because in addition to having no safety net, I had no one helping me navigate the college process. I was definitely part of the "just get a degree" generation, but I didn't have parents who knew any better to try to help me think through whether or not I'd ever actually get a decent job with my liberal arts degrees. I think a lot of lower income kids, especially those who might be the first generation to go to college, are in the same boat. Or at least, they were. Probably less so today with all the push away from liberal arts now, but there are definitely a lot of kids who don't know any better going into it.
Chiming in on 1st gen students, the big thing seems to be Student Success for 1st Gen students and students in general now. I just met with someone last week who said he got lost in college and wished someone had done more to keep him on the right path as a student. And often, it's just that no one is guiding those students - even if they seem to be model students.
It'll be interesting to watch this over the years as it becomes more fleshed out within academic circles.
I wonder about the bolded. I assume things are a bit different now than when I started college, as costs and loans hadn't quite completely blown up at the time yet, but this didn't deter me at all. Because in addition to having no safety net, I had no one helping me navigate the college process. I was definitely part of the "just get a degree" generation, but I didn't have parents who knew any better to try to help me think through whether or not I'd ever actually get a decent job with my liberal arts degrees. I think a lot of lower income kids, especially those who might be the first generation to go to college, are in the same boat. Or at least, they were. Probably less so today with all the push away from liberal arts now, but there are definitely a lot of kids who don't know any better going into it.
Chiming in on 1st gen students, the big thing seems to be Student Success for 1st Gen students and students in general now. I just met with someone last week who said he got lost in college and wished someone had done more to keep him on the right path as a student. And often, it's just that no one is guiding those students - even if they seem to be model students.
It'll be interesting to watch this over the years as it becomes more fleshed out within academic circles.
I also think that it's possible (probable?) that the individualized attention and environment at a smaller private liberal arts college can be helpful in supporting 1st Gen students. I am 1st Gen and while there were TONS of things that sucked about going to an "elite" private school as a poor 1st gen student, I got so much support from professors and staff that I likely would not have received (or would have needed to be proactive about asking for) at a larger school. I had no idea really the difference between a small liberal arts college and a big university when I chose it, but I'm so thankful every day that I did because I was so far behind peers coming out of a not so great public high school and I was given the time and tools I needed to catch up quickly. It makes me happy to hear that this might be improving across the board because it truly is miserable.
I wonder about the bolded. I assume things are a bit different now than when I started college, as costs and loans hadn't quite completely blown up at the time yet, but this didn't deter me at all. Because in addition to having no safety net, I had no one helping me navigate the college process. I was definitely part of the "just get a degree" generation, but I didn't have parents who knew any better to try to help me think through whether or not I'd ever actually get a decent job with my liberal arts degrees. I think a lot of lower income kids, especially those who might be the first generation to go to college, are in the same boat. Or at least, they were. Probably less so today with all the push away from liberal arts now, but there are definitely a lot of kids who don't know any better going into it.
Chiming in on 1st gen students, the big thing seems to be Student Success for 1st Gen students and students in general now. I just met with someone last week who said he got lost in college and wished someone had done more to keep him on the right path as a student. And often, it's just that no one is guiding those students - even if they seem to be model students.
It'll be interesting to watch this over the years as it becomes more fleshed out within academic circles.
The University of Georgia (my alma mater) put out a really awesome resource guide for 1st Gen students a couple of years ago and are developing a whole leadership program called 1st at the First. It breaks down the lingo and has a really comprehensive section on high school vs. college with side-by-side examples. The principles are definitely gaining ground in higher ed circles, but I'm not convinced many college presidents have been persuaded that it's worth spending dollars on. It's like "great idea, now figure out how to do it effectively and for free." I hope the tide shifts on that.
Chiming in on 1st gen students, the big thing seems to be Student Success for 1st Gen students and students in general now. I just met with someone last week who said he got lost in college and wished someone had done more to keep him on the right path as a student. And often, it's just that no one is guiding those students - even if they seem to be model students.
It'll be interesting to watch this over the years as it becomes more fleshed out within academic circles.
I also think that it's possible (probable?) that the individualized attention and environment at a smaller private liberal arts college can be helpful in supporting 1st Gen students. I am 1st Gen and while there were TONS of things that sucked about going to an "elite" private school as a poor 1st gen student, I got so much support from professors and staff that I likely would not have received (or would have needed to be proactive about asking for) at a larger school. I had no idea really the difference between a small liberal arts college and a big university when I chose it, but I'm so thankful every day that I did because I was so far behind peers coming out of a not so great public high school and I was given the time and tools I needed to catch up quickly. It makes me happy to hear that this might be improving across the board because it truly is miserable.
At the major university where I work, there is a first gen center that has robust mentoring and helps to provide the support needed. It’s a really great center!!