@@Closing schools during the COVID-19 - why/how discussion@@

[pixy0stix]

Why you close schools during a pandemic outbreak:

‘Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions’
School closures are one form of what public health officials call “non-pharmaceutical interventions” to a pandemic, which include quarantines, isolation, and prohibitions on large public gatherings.

The most prominent example of school closures came in response to the 1918-19 Spanish flu, which killed as many as 675,000 people in the United States and millions more around the world. Schools in dozens of U.S. cities were closed for as long as four months, a tactic that researchers have generally concluded was beneficial to stemming the spread of the disease.

Source: www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2020/02/28/coronavirus-and-school-closures-what-are-the.html

School dismissals are particularly effective in delaying the epidemic peak.
Dismissals at the city or county level yield the greatest reduction in disease incidence for all but the most severe pandemic scenarios.
Broader (multi-county) dismissals should be considered for the most severe and fast-spreading (1918-like) pandemics.

Source: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1755436518301749

For a far more nuanced conversation, there's this article - www.cgdev.org/blog/containing-epidemic-should-schools-close-coronavirus

No government will take the decision to shut down its schools lightly. But when considering school closure as a strategy to tackle disease outbreaks, the evidence suggests that they should carefully assess how and when to close schools and to weigh any reduction in disease transmission against negative social and economic effects. Perhaps even more important, particularly in developing countries, is to consider how to tackle these adverse consequences—during and after school closure—for disadvantaged children and especially girls, and to implement measures to ensure children return to school once they reopen.

[eclaires]

We have had flu shutdown here in Feb every year for the past 4y. It’s mostly related to sub vacancies and student absences but the health department helps make the decision.

It is a giant pain in the ass but it does seem to help.

[pixy0stix]

I said this in the @ thread -

Measles school closure - www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/another-cost-of-the-measles-outbreak-the-800-students-kept-out-of-school/

Noro closure - www.cnn.com/2019/11/21/us/colorado-school-district-closed-virus-outbreak/index.html

Meningitis school closure - www.kristv.com/school-district-closing-for-cleaning-after-confirmed-meningitis-case

Pretty much anything you think is infectious, if you google it you can find school closures within the past year. This isn't new. What is new is that we're looking at multiple districts closing all at once.

[nsl]

Sub vacancies and high rates of teacher absenteeism are a piece that I think those who don’t work in education don’t fully appreciate. On a normal day, during a normal week, my school has trouble finding enough subs to cover 2-3 planned absences plus one emergency absence. This week alone I’ve covered for a colleague already during my planning period because we didn’t have enough subs, and it’s only Tuesday. And my building is considered an “easy” job by most subs because we’re 100% magnet.

There are only so many adults in a school building compared to kids, and if you lose too many to illness you can’t supervise kids safely.

[fancynewbeesly]

nsl,

I agree. Last week at our school due to the flu and planned professional days, we had 11/12 teachers out in the elementary school. There were not even enough subs to cover 50% of the classes. Classes were divided, many people covered on planning periods etc. I could easily imagine them closing the district for lack of subs. Because there is only so much they can do.

[SusanBAnthony]

The part I struggle with is the months-long aspect.

Many/most people will need to go to work. So what are people going to do?

We can definitely work from home for a few days. But for weeks/months? Eek. I worry about schools closing prematurely because it is already here, and this could last months.

I just can't imagine the many families living on the edge having to find childcare for so long. Or not work.

[kershnic]

Mar 3, 2020 21:25:06 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

The part I struggle with is the months-long aspect.

Many/most people will need to go to work. So what are people going to do?

We can definitely work from home for a few days. But for weeks/months? Eek. I worry about schools closing prematurely because it is already here, and this could last months.

I just can't imagine the many families living on the edge having to find childcare for so long. Or not work.

This.  I can't imagine how an extended shut down of schools could possibly be managed.  I think I'd have to quit my job.  I'm very fortunate that I have a spouse who works so we wouldn't totally drown immediately, but loss of my income would hit us really hard.  So many families would be hit so much harder, especially single parents.  

*I suppose there's a chance my aftercare program would convert to daycare, but then I'd have to make the impossible choice between putting my kids at risk by sending them to group childcare or quitting my job.

[waverly]

Yes we definitely have had schools close for a good cleaning.

We have not had schools closed for a month or more time. I’m waiting to see if that will happen in the U.S. I was taken aback when I heard Japan closed all schools got a month (could be longer). But it’s a far smaller country there. We are more likely to see citywide closures than state of country wide. But for how long will they be closed?

I had this discussion with my boss today. A lot of my job is being there. There is a potential for 1/5 of the workplace to be out, and we might not have enough staff for essential functions. If we do have enough staff it might not be in my department. So we might have to close or have less hours.

But I set my computer back up for remote work.

[rupertpenny]

This happens fairly regularly in Hong Kong, mostly for flu outbreaks. Schools have been closed there since Lunar New Year and are not scheduled to reopen until after Easter. People are losing their minds. Everyone is still paying school fees, but some kids are withdrawing and many educators are on unpaid leave anyway. Some schools are trying to implement distance learning, but unsurprisingly this is pretty hit or miss.

Basically the only methods of childcare there are stay at home parent, retired grandparents, or live-in domestic helper (nanny). This is helpful in some ways because parents can usually still go to work fairly easily, but if the one person who takes care of your kids gets sick there is pretty much nothing you can do.

In any case, because of their experience with SARS Hong Kong takes this kind of thing VERY seriously. As a parent it was a huge pain in the ass, but with such a dense population it makes sense.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 3, 2020 21:34:19 GMT -5 waverly said:

I had this discussion with my boss today. A lot of my job is being there. There is a potential for 1/5 of the workplace to be out, and we might not have enough staff for essential functions. If we do have enough staff it might not be in my department. So we might have to close or have less hours.

I think this is the piece that people are missing when talking about this. We're not talking about isolated incidences, but every single person with a school aged child is going to have issues. From management on down. Plus just the fact that people are going to be out sick. In general, things are going to shut down just from not having people there. Business simply can't go on as usual.

[mskitkat]

Mar 3, 2020 21:43:37 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 3, 2020 21:34:19 GMT -5 waverly said:

I had this discussion with my boss today. A lot of my job is being there. There is a potential for 1/5 of the workplace to be out, and we might not have enough staff for essential functions. If we do have enough staff it might not be in my department. So we might have to close or have less hours.

I think this is the piece that people are missing when talking about this. We're not talking about isolated incidences, but every single person with a school aged child is going to have issues. From management on down. Plus just the fact that people are going to be out sick. In general, things are going to shut down just from not having people there. Business simply can't go on as usual.

Even though my job function can be performed remotely with no problem, I have a 4 year old and a 5 month old. Disney+ only goes so far. Productivity is going to tank.

[Deleted]

Mar 3, 2020 21:25:06 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

The part I struggle with is the months-long aspect.

Many/most people will need to go to work. So what are people going to do?

We can definitely work from home for a few days. But for weeks/months? Eek. I worry about schools closing prematurely because it is already here, and this could last months.

I just can't imagine the many families living on the edge having to find childcare for so long. Or not work.

98 percent of my job can be done from home, and the other 2 percent could just wait until I’m back in the office. The problem is that my kid is 2.5 years old so demands a lot of attention. And i actually can’t work in the evening per the terms of my union contract. As best I can figure, I would work 6:30-12, we’d all eat lunch, she’d nap 1-3, H and I could both work 1-3, and then he could continue working until dinner and finish up after dinner. We’ve done something similar during weather closures, but fuck it’s exhausting to do over and over.

[irishbride2]

We shut down in general when we hit 20 percent infected. It happens with the regular flu too.

I think comparing this to the Spanish flu, which was worse for young people, doesn’t completely work. I get why some schools are choosing to close just because someone nearby has it, but we aren’t. The virus is here and we just were updated today that our plan, per a meeting with the cdc, was to wait.

[penguingrrl]

Ugh, I totally understand why schools are left with no other choice. And also fully understand why it’s a big piece of stemming a pandemic because schools are germ factories.

But Hs job is stingy with their work from home policy. He can do a few days, but not a lot (which is bullshit in this scenario since they have hundreds of people per floor in such open spaces there aren’t so much as half cublicle walls separating him from his coworkers, which fucking blows in ideal circumstances, but is worse since he’s immunocompromised). Given that he brings in over 90% of our household income we can’t put his job at risk.

My job simply isn’t a job function that can be done from home, period. And while I don’t make a huge income, I’m finally back in the workforce after a decade out and trying to build my career back up. Months away would likely cost me my job. Which would further derail my career prospects, plus would be noticeable loss of income for us right now.

[Patsy Baloney]

We are fortunate in that my mom is our childcare. If school were to close, we’d be able to have her watch both kids without issue.

Except that my mom is in a high-risk age group, and if we’re closing school to slow and stop the spread, I would be worried about my potentially-exposed school-aged kid passing something onto Nana ☹️

We’ve had neighboring school districts close for flu, but it hasn’t happened for ours in recent memory. I’m just hoping for the best for everyone, but I think this will be very disruptive as this plays out.

[sillygoosegirl]

I'd rather families be stuck at home healthy than stuck at home sick... I mean, hopefully it won't come to that, but it does seem like a clear preference to me.

Not that it seems like they have any sort of actual good information with which to make this decision...

[georgeglass]

It's a horrifying issue, and some highlights include:

1. Women will lose jobs (fired or have to quit) to provide childcare
2. Group childcares will pop up, like goldengirlz mentioned, BUT at some point those pose an elevated risk because of multiple people from different families
3. Huge economic impact as businesses slow down
4. Impact to hourly workers who support school staff AND corporate staff whose customers are school staff or parents (e.g., food truck owners, transportation providers)
5. The very real fact that Americans won't self-quarantine. Schools may be empty, but Becky sure as shit is going to get tired of her kids and go to an indoor trampoline park so they can "burn off some energy"

ETA
6. School lunches are the only reliable food some kids get. Weeks without it? Combined with economic downturn/impact to hourly workers/unreliable childcare? Disaster.

All to say that these decisions shouldn't be made lightly

[cinnamoncox0]

So I work in a high school where today marks one week since a large group of students and teachers and chaperones came back from Italy. No asking of them to stay home whilst potentially infected, not a single word about hey there might be some concern about recent travel here is why we didn’t ask them to stay home, not a word.

We are geographically close to a few other schools who had people contract it in Italy in recent school trips.

I’m incredibly mad at school admin for not addressing this to either have them stay home or let the rest of us know why not, and also I have younger ones in elementary so I’m figuring some of these high school kids who traveled have siblings in lower grades.

It will be another week+ until the “incubation “ period goes by to see if anyone comes down with it from this trip, but by then the amount of spreading will be ridiculous.

I think shutting down of any schools where there is known infection and that individual entered the building (not just works there but hasn’t been back since sick) should be shut down.
Yes it will be hard for many families but public health is so much more important than anything really, that the idea not to shut down because people don’t want to be “stuck in” with their kids is...something.

No childcare and very small kids and worried about losing job? That’s one thing. But to dread being home with kids due to a serious health issue is really incredible.

[irishbride2]

We also had a group go to Italy recently. But asking them to stay home seems silly since we also have cases locally. We had a few teachers upset that we didn’t ask them to stay home BUT IMO that would be over reach and legally tricky.

[turnipthebeet]

Mar 3, 2020 22:36:35 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

This won’t work for everyone but there may be some people whose places of business close who might want to help out with childcare. For example, one of DD’s teachers lives around the block and our neighbor is a waitress/student. If they want to make extra money, I’d certainly be willing to pay for their help.

No local family for us but my MIL keeps saying she wants DD to come stay for an extended period. Be careful what you wish for, MIL. Be careful what you wish for ...

I also wonder if there might not be coordination of older kids (HS age) watching younger ones. Not systematically, but within neighborhoods. It just isn’t realistic for all parents to stay home.

[georgeglass]

Mar 4, 2020 7:29:59 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

We also had a group go to Italy recently. But asking them to stay home seems silly since we also have cases locally. We had a few teachers upset that we didn’t ask them to stay home BUT IMO that would be over reach and legally tricky.

Our largest competitor school is asking people to stay home if they go to Italy. We are not. People are losing their minds - both ways.

[Waffles]

The WFH issue is pretty timely for me as our director just decided that all staff can now WFH once a week except from support staff, who will only be allowed in "exceptional circumstances".

Obviously school/daycare/office closures will count as exceptional but as others have posted I don't see myself being very productive if at home with a two year old.

Which is very annoying as it could have been the opportunity to prove that we can very well do 90% of the job from home.

[Waffles]

The Italian government just announced they are closing all schools until mid March: www.bbc.com/news/live/world-51734185

[toutsuite]

Mar 3, 2020 21:40:31 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

This happens fairly regularly in Hong Kong, mostly for flu outbreaks. Schools have been closed there since Lunar New Year and are not scheduled to reopen until after Easter. People are losing their minds. Everyone is still paying school fees, but some kids are withdrawing and many educators are on unpaid leave anyway. Some schools are trying to implement distance learning, but unsurprisingly this is pretty hit or miss.

Basically the only methods of childcare there are stay at home parent, retired grandparents, or live-in domestic helper (nanny). This is helpful in some ways because parents can usually still go to work fairly easily, but if the one person who takes care of your kids gets sick there is pretty much nothing you can do.

In any case, because of their experience with SARS Hong Kong takes this kind of thing VERY seriously. As a parent it was a huge pain in the ass, but with such a dense population it makes sense.

Yup everything you said.  Our schools have been closed since before lunar new year and while they are supposed to reopen in late April, I doubt it will happen.  It has been hugely disruptive though the cases we have had here have not drastically increased.  We are still paying absurd school fees even with schools closed, and my husband’s and my place of employment is still open.  It’s a logistical challenge to play care giver, teacher, and employee all in one day all while being expected to administer hours of online learning for our kindergartener and preschooler.  It does not help that flight options are more limited so even if we wanted to leave, it would be a challenge with routing if we wanted to repatriate for continuity in schooling. 

[cinnamoncox0]

Mar 4, 2020 7:29:59 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

We also had a group go to Italy recently. But asking them to stay home seems silly since we also have cases locally. We had a few teachers upset that we didn’t ask them to stay home BUT IMO that would be over reach and legally tricky.

Many schools in my area had groups come back from Italy last week and all (but mine!) have told them to stay home and they are. I don’t think there’s anything illegal about it. But we shall see.

[ohgillian]

Mar 4, 2020 7:42:34 GMT -5 turnipthebeet said:

Mar 3, 2020 22:36:35 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

This won’t work for everyone but there may be some people whose places of business close who might want to help out with childcare. For example, one of DD’s teachers lives around the block and our neighbor is a waitress/student. If they want to make extra money, I’d certainly be willing to pay for their help.

No local family for us but my MIL keeps saying she wants DD to come stay for an extended period. Be careful what you wish for, MIL. Be careful what you wish for ...

I also wonder if there might not be coordination of older kids (HS age) watching younger ones. Not systematically, but within neighborhoods. It just isn’t realistic for all parents to stay home.

This is probably what we would do (mixed in with WFH), but it's expensive! In my MCOL area, we pay our neighborhood teen babysitter $100/day for teacher workdays and the like. I  mean if school closed for a month we might pay a negotiated lump sum vs. literally paying $100/day, but....it's not cheap. 

[pixy0stix]

Mar 3, 2020 21:58:37 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

I think comparing this to the Spanish flu, which was worse for young people, doesn’t completely work. 

I want to come back to this - why doesn't it work? Infection rates are about the same, and while it isn't hitting them as hard as adults they're still getting sick.

[litebright]

We are incredibly lucky that I WFH. I've already offered to some friends that if there's an extended shutdown, their son can come to my house while they work. Depending on if they take me up on it, I'll extend the offer to others as I can. I have to balance that with still being able to do my own work. My kids are older, but if I take on much younger siblings as well, things start to get tricky.

The other thing in the DC metro is, the Trump administration has been slashing telework-friendly policies for several years now. I hope this makes them regret that and reverse some of the changes they made, but I doubt it. And a lot of people are transplants, like us, so there is no dropping the kids at Grandma's house. And even if you could, as people have mentioned, Grandma is probably in a higher-risk group and you really have to think hard about whether you *should* let her watch the kids. 

My sister is a nurse in Cleveland and is trying to figure out what the heck she'll do if there's an extended shutdown of her kids' school at the same time that she will likely be called on to work longer hours. Her H has limited flexibility in his job. I am trying to figure out if I could drive up (six hours), get her kids and bring them to my house for an extended stay. But they both have celiac and I'm not sure she'd want to just send them off with me, and while I would do my best, I'm personally not sure how well I'd do at keeping them 100% free of exposure. But she might very well have the same problem with any short-term care situation that she comes up with.

[irishbride2]

Mar 4, 2020 9:32:42 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 3, 2020 21:58:37 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

I think comparing this to the Spanish flu, which was worse for young people, doesn’t completely work. 

I want to come back to this - why doesn't it work? Infection rates are about the same, and while it isn't hitting them as hard as adults they're still getting sick.

Because kids were dying en masse from the spanish flu It hit young healthy people harder than other populations. Most young people are less sick from this than the regular flu. 

We likely, no matter what as this point, will have a huge percentage of our population get this flu by the end of 2020. They are estimating that it will be much worse in wave 2 this fall/winter. The likely hood of us closing is higher then, than now. But who knows? We will just have to wait and see how it plays out in our area. Right now we only have 3 confirmed cases but that will likely grow quickly. 

[irishbride2]

Mar 4, 2020 9:22:25 GMT -5 cinnamoncox0 said:

Mar 4, 2020 7:29:59 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

We also had a group go to Italy recently. But asking them to stay home seems silly since we also have cases locally. We had a few teachers upset that we didn’t ask them to stay home BUT IMO that would be over reach and legally tricky.

Many schools in my area had groups come back from Italy last week and all (but mine!) have told them to stay home and they are. I don’t think there’s anything illegal about it. But we shall see.

I don't know the law specifics. I just know the school lawyers I know say its tricky. You can suggest they stay home, but its tricky to force them to. I'm not the decision maker so I'm just rolling with it at this point. 

But like I said, we are pretty much resigned to the fact that members of our school community will get it. Our goal now is to protect those in at risk groups as best we can. I'm less worried about our healthy kids than those with immune issues or our older teachers.