Yet another paying for daycare thread

[awkwardpenguin]

Our daycare has been closed since March 17th and will stay closed through at least the end of May.  I'm trying to determine if I'm off base with how I'm thinking about tuition expectations.

We paid full March tuition.
We were asked to pay (and paid) 70% of April tuition.
We have been asked to pay 50% of May tuition.

So far all the staff are still employed and getting paid.  They have been doing daily activities sent to us through their messaging app, and Zoom activities for 30 minutes to an hour a few times a week.  The daycare owner has shared that they received a PPP loan, which pays payroll for 8 weeks (as a loan that is later forgiven).  They still have rent expenses that they are not receiving help with from stimulus.  They have been able to reopen one location for children of essential workers, so that is bringing in some income.

We have not lost income yet, but we are working from home without childcare, which has been a big stress.  I am willing to pay some money to hold our slot, but I think 70% of April and 50% of May is a lot to ask given that payroll is being covered for those months.  I am considering pushing back on the tuition amount, but I am not sure what is reasonable to expect, or if it's worth potentially angering our daycare administration over.

I also feel uncertain what to expect in terms of reopening, as the owner is planning to stay closed through the end of May even if the state allows them to reopen sooner.  I am not sure I'd want to send DS back before the end of May anyway, but I'd like to know how she plans to determine when they can reopen if she doesn't plan to follow the guidance from the state.

It's worth noting that the daycare is moving locations soon, and their new location's backyard is across the alley from our backyard, so the daycare is literally our neighbor, so our relationship with them will continue beyond when DS is done with daycare in a year and a half.

[awkwardpenguin]

TLDR - I'm feeling very conflicted over whether what they are asking is reasonable, and if it's worth rocking the boat to push back.

[lemoncupcake]

If they’ve publicized the fact that they can cover salary’s from govt assistance, the fact that they’re asking you to pay 50-70% is ridiculous.

As a counter point, our daycare is technically still open for certain essential workers but they haven’t gone since early to mid March (I can’t remember the day, honestly). We paid our normal tuition for March, 50% deposit in April that will hold our spot/be applied to a future bill and are slated to pay nothing for May if we don’t go. They’re sending out some lessons/activities and record a story every day, but that’s it.

[cricketwife]

I would add up the dollars that you paid for care you didn't receive and let the director know that we have so far paid $X for care that we didn't receive and this is not sustainable for us. I am willing to pay $Y per month to hold our spot until you are able to reopen. (My "Y" would be NO more than 10% of current tuition). Would that be sufficient to hold our spot? This places the ball in her court. I don't think it's rude (ie shouldn't harm your relationship) and I think her numbers are crazy. It also forces her to tell you the what would happen if you don't pay.

[VillainV]

I don’t know enough about daycares to know if it’s reasonable. I assume they have to pay rent and utilities, and have no idea how much of their operating budget is overhead. Also, is PPP covering 100% of their payroll or something less?

If it’s a financial stretch for you, it might be worth calling the director and having a conversation about what you can afford to pay and if they can accept that. I agree that it makes sense to work with them on this since they’ll be your neighbor.

[Susie]

I don't know.  I've been wrestling with this too, although circumstances are a little different.  My kids have been out since 3/17 also, but our daycare only briefly closed (as I mentioned in the other thread), like just for a few days and then reopened.  We have been billed for and are paying 100% all along.  It... stings.  I would love even like a 10% discount, so 70% and 50% sound great to me.  For our 100%, we've gotten a few youtube videos of the teachers reading books, and we could go pick up packets to do activities at home, I just haven't had time to go drive there and back during the day, or really to sit with my kid and do activities once I've done that.  #moty  

The thing I struggle with is how to value the fact that my daycare is still open and it's my choice not to send them.  I mean... under SIP I am hard pressed to feel like I'm "choosing" to keep my kids home.  OTOH, she's treating it kind of like a kid being really unlucky with excludable illnesses, which doesn't get you a discount.  Is that an unreasonable comparison?  IDK.

[thebreakfastclub]

Thankfully my daycare just closed outright so I do not have to deal with this.

I would not want to pay 100% tuition. There are almost no utilities, no food costs, no water bill, the vans that transport to school are not running. They also make a profit on top of that. I think it's too much to ask for 100% tuition and essentially make them whole with less expenses. Payroll is their biggest line item, so if that is covered, that's a huge weight off of them.

I would say, I can afford to pay 25% going forward.

[thebreakfastclub]

Apr 21, 2020 14:42:43 GMT -5 Susie said:

I don't know.  I've been wrestling with this too, although circumstances are a little different.  My kids have been out since 3/17 also, but our daycare only briefly closed (as I mentioned in the other thread), like just for a few days and then reopened.  We have been billed for and are paying 100% all along.  It... stings.  I would love even like a 10% discount, so 70% and 50% sound great to me.  For our 100%, we've gotten a few youtube videos of the teachers reading books, and we could go pick up packets to do activities at home, I just haven't had time to go drive there and back during the day, or really to sit with my kid and do activities once I've done that.  #moty  

The thing I struggle with is how to value the fact that my daycare is still open and it's my choice not to send them.  I mean... under SIP I am hard pressed to feel like I'm "choosing" to keep my kids home.  OTOH, she's treating it kind of like a kid being really unlucky with excludable illnesses, which doesn't get you a discount.  Is that an unreasonable comparison?  IDK.

I consider the comparison of an illness to be apples and oranges, and a self serving one for the owner. 

An illness might be a week, two weeks maximum, unless it's a truly rare event.   My son was in full time daycare from 0-5 and probably was sick a total of 10 days in that entire time.  There has to be some kind of line.  These are businesses, not doing the Lord's work, lol.   I think holding a spot at 50% is the very most they should be asking for.  

[krystee]

50% feels pretty fair to me. If you look at all costs from rent to insurance to utilities and whatever else there is, I’d imagine they need that to stay in business. I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to ask if you could pay 25% for the months the PPP is covering, but it doesn’t seem very fair unless they apply that rule to everyone or base it on income.

Our in-home provider is asking for 50%, but we are paying 100% whether we send them or not because if our incomes aren’t hurting, we don’t want hers to either. She is like family to us. I would not do that for a giant center, but would probably do 50%.

I have seen a ton of posts in my mom Facebook groups of people saying that paying 50% isn’t sustainable, but if you’re paying half and you were able to pay 100% before, I don’t see how it is unsustainable if your income hasn’t dropped and you don’t need to hire alternative care. It stings to pay for something you’re not getting and it sucks a lot, but I’m not sure I understand the unsustainable part.

[waverly]

We are out of the daycare model but if we didn’t send our kid it was 50%. 70% is a lot.

Obviously aftercare and camps are different, but part of what I like about them is we don’t pay if we don’t go. Aftercare stopped charging tuition the first week that school was closed, 1 week prior to the stay at home order.

For convenience location sake I would try to keep a good relationship but try to nicely negotiate the %.

[starryfish]

i wouldn't pay more than 50% to hold my spot....but knowing they got PPP $, i would want to pay less, like 25%. I was paying 50% but then I withdrew my dd because my DH got furloughed. Since we are thinking we are TWing through summer, I am glad we withdrew bc my DD is not going back anytime soon

[sent]

If they got the PPP, 75% of that can be spent on payroll and 25% on other things like rent and be forgiven. So it's not entirely correct that it won't help them with rent. Also the spirit of the PPP is to put people back to work but if your state allows reopening but they chose not to reopen, that doesn't sound right either.

As a small business owner still trying to figure out how to apply for these packages and with lots of friends who have not received them, I would definitely push back in this scenario if they aren't using the PPP loan the way it was intended. We were asked to pay 50% of April and have heard nothing yet about May. I'm not feeling paying 50% in May again if the state doesn't let them reopen. I really could do without the little videos they send in an attempt to justify the charge.

Eta - one of the biggest reasons I can't get it together to apply for the PPP is because my daycare is closed!

[brooklyn]

I think 50% is fair considering they are sending daily activities for your kid. I would expect to pay something for that.

[cricketwife]

Apr 21, 2020 14:58:15 GMT -5 krystee said:

50% feels pretty fair to me. If you look at all costs from rent to insurance to utilities and whatever else there is, I’d imagine they need that to stay in business. I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to ask if you could pay 25% for the months the PPP is covering, but it doesn’t seem very fair unless they apply that rule to everyone or base it on income.

Our in-home provider is asking for 50%, but we are paying 100% whether we send them or not because if our incomes aren’t hurting, we don’t want hers to either. She is like family to us. I would not do that for a giant center, but would probably do 50%.

I have seen a ton of posts in my mom Facebook groups of people saying that paying 50% isn’t sustainable, but if you’re paying half and you were able to pay 100% before, I don’t see how it is unsustainable if your income hasn’t dropped and you don’t need to hire alternative care. It stings to pay for something you’re not getting and it sucks a lot, but I’m not sure I understand the unsustainable part.

Fortunately, we are no longer paying for daycare. But I think I can shed some light on this.  I think many people think if “income hasn’t dropped” as “you still have your jobs,” which we do.  But H is in sales so he’s just bringing home his basic at the moment. I still have my full salary but my work provided my lunch every day.  I know it a small thing, but I’m now paying for meals I didn’t used to have to pay for and snacks for the boys.  Our grocery bill has more than doubled. Part of that is buying more lunches and snacks, though largely it’s having to just buy whatever is on the shelf and no longer being able to shop sales, etc.  We have always been pretty frugal.  I buy almost everything second hand for the boys.  Our BST groups have closed. Our retail secondhand shops are closed and so everything I’m buying is now new and retail price.  Also, I’m buying toys, play equipment, Roku etc that I would have NEVER ever considered buying before, let alone at full retail price. But having things for my kids to do is kind of “paying for other care” in this makeshift situation. Obviously I’m not special or alone in this.  And yes, we could live without the new puzzle or play doh set, but we are trying to do anything that will make our lives less miserable at the moment.  I think that variations of this theme could be where a lot of those women are coming from. 

[CrazyLucky]

We pulled our kids starting March 16, when we started working at home. We paid through March. Daycare is currently closed, and we are not expected to pay anything. They said even when they open back up, if we don't send our kids, we don't have to pay. Our daycare is based at a church, so I don't know if they could apply for the small business loan or not.

[pandorica]

We have been paying full price (willingly, there was no policy in place - small in home). She just contacted us to drop it to 50% until they can open again. I doubt she's gotten any of the loans or unemployment etc because it's just her (this is my assumption, but I don't actually know how it works). If it was a business that was getting the loans etc I'd probably feel differently!

[mskitkat]

My daycare is weirdly doing the opposite. We have paid full price for the 6 weeks they have been closed. They will be reopening May 4th. I have no plans to send my kids until work requires me to return in person, and they announced they aren’t charging anyone who chooses not to return. Our spots will be saved regardless.

[Mrs.flang]

I'm not sure what is reasonable. I'd have to imagine that they ran the numbers and aren't trying to profit from the closure and are just trying to stay afloat. Ours has been closed since March 18, but wasn't required to close until 4/1. We've been keeping them home since March 16, paid in full for March, but haven't paid since. I was somewhat expecting them to ask for full tuition so I'm happily surprised we haven't been asked to pay anything. I'd probably be too chicken to actually push back, and part of me feels like if it means paying now vs facing possible permanent closure, I'd be happier paying because I want DDs to be able to go back! Obviously that is given our personal circumstances of still having the same income. But it probably wouldn't hurt if you word it nicely and voiced your concern about the plan going forward.

[starryfish]

oh and I want to mention, when i was paying 50%, it was NOT publicized. You had to call and ask to pay the vacation rate. Several of us mom friends did, but it was not public. So i would definitely call and ask

[mrsann]

Our daycare also got the PPP loan. Before getting that, the goal was to keep paying teachers so they could reopen with minimal interruptions.

We paid 100% of March (closed March 13), 25% of April (could be tax deductible if requested) and going forward nominal (approximate 6%) fee to hold place (not tax deductible).

I am on the parent board so know a little more than most parents. There was a lot of number running around if we didn’t get the loan or got partial loan, how much reasonable to pull from reserves, how long to keep paying teachers at 100%, etc. There has also a lot of discussion about how finances will look when reopen so considered that in the amounts. For example, we expect mandated smaller class sizes and also expect to lose some older students (can fill infant spots, older ones are harder to fill) plus more cleaning costs / supply costs so higher expenses with lower revenue. I know exceptions are being made due to financial difficulties..

All that to say - those amounts seem very high considering they got the PPP loan so would ask for reduction.

[sent]

A few days ago the video from DS’s teacher was to collage. As in rip up some magazines or newspaper. Rub a glue stick all over a piece of construction paper. Have your 2 year old collage the ripped pieces on the construction paper and boom, collage! I paid $700 in April for this. I didn’t mind it at the time because as a small business owner, I get it and I felt for them.

I don’t want to pay $700 next month for more of that if they can’t reopen.

[brooke77]

Ours has been closed since the second week of March and is not charging for April, May, and June. I have heard so many different things from other moms. Some are paying full price, some reduced, and some none.

I would be OK paying a reduced price to help keep the daycare afloat so they are still there when we need them in July (hopefully!). Up to 50%.

I also don’t want/need any of the daily activities you mentioned. I don’t have time or benefit from those at all.

[preppy]

Ours has been closed since March 13. We had already paid for March in full and won't get any credits from those 2 weeks, but we didn't pay for April and won't pay until they reopen or we are comfortable sending the kids back according to our director. DH was laid off so not paying is very helpful financially since daycare is our largest line item on our budget by far. DD1 is in a pre-K and she has daily zoom circle time and they mailed us activities. DD2 is in the toddler class and they are not doing anything. We sent the pre-K teacher some wine via drizly as a thank you for the daily zoom time.

[simpsongal]

We paid in full for March (went for 2 weeks) and 50% in April. I think they expect 50% in May too.  I don't know if they got a PPP loan.

[tacom]

Our daycare closed mid-March and we only paid for a week of care we chose not to utilize before they closed.

It’s a large center/chain, since I think that likely matters here.

[al dente]

Apr 21, 2020 16:33:36 GMT -5 sent said:

Also the spirit of the PPP is to put people back to work but if your state allows reopening but they chose not to reopen, that doesn't sound right either.

They may not have enough kids to make it worth opening multiple locations. My mom runs a private school (2-K), and when she shut down she offered it to essential workers and no one wanted to send their kid. Directors who remained open aren’t getting enough kids to cover their costs.

I would def try to get it reduced. My moms school refunded half of March and hasn’t had parents pay since then. Except for kindergarten which got reduced to 50% and the teacher does classes everyday online. I’m so surprised by all the people who’s schools are still charging so much.

[sent]

Apr 23, 2020 17:59:15 GMT -5 al dente said:

Apr 21, 2020 16:33:36 GMT -5 sent said:

Also the spirit of the PPP is to put people back to work but if your state allows reopening but they chose not to reopen, that doesn't sound right either.

They may not have enough kids to make it worth opening multiple locations. My mom runs a private school (2-K), and when she shut down she offered it to essential workers and no one wanted to send their kid. Directors who remained open aren’t getting enough kids to cover their costs.

That's the crazy part. DD (different daycare than DS) is in 1st grade and her school is charging $300 for April which will be applied to a future month. I thought for sure they would charge more for K & 1 since they still have daily instruction but they made the same rule for the whole school (infants - grade 1). Still radio silence for May. I wonder what happens in June because I had to pay all of June as a deposit to enroll her in first grade. 

[smsm24]

Ugh this is the worst. We paid in full for April and she hasn’t told us what she is doing for May. It’s a small in home with 8 kids. She is open for essential employees but my kid spends too much time with his hands in his mouth for me to be comfortable sending him. I don’t mind paying something but I will push back if she wants the full amount. I feel like she isn’t feeding my kid or doing any activities so somewhere between 50% and 75% is reasonable. My H’s job is stable (with no raise in June) but I have taken a 25% pay cut for 90 days. If schools don’t go back I expect it to be extended through the rest of 2020 and if ski season doesn’t happen or is only local it will be through Q1 of 2021, if I am not furloughed.