Hoarding - update in OP

[letsgetweird]

A friend of mine is struggling with her mental health. I've known her for a few years and when we met she lived in an apartment, her 3 dogs lived with her parents. Two years ago, she bought a house and her dogs came to live with her. Her sister and dog later moved in and my friend adopted another dog for a total of 5 dogs. The dogs destroyed her house and for a long time she did not have me come over. About a year ago I briefly came into the house, the house reaked, dog poop and hair everywhere. Since then she ripped up the carpet downstairs. Also 2 of her elderly dogs passed away. She is now thinking of getting another dog (I've suggested this is not a good idea).

I saw her house this weekend to help her load up her car before we went to the lake. She had me go up to her bedroom and her carpet is brown from pee stains. It's bad. In the past I've told her I thought therapy would help but I've never addressed this particular issue. In general, her house is a mess and she's definitely a hoarder. She's mentioned her mom is a shopaholic and I've seen some pics of her childhood home and noticed animal stains so she may be used to living this way.

How do i address this with her? I plan to do this via text rather than in person.

I'm also not sure I'm interested in helping her get her home in order. While I care about her, she can be very negative and looks to me for emotional support so I've had to create many boundaries with her.

Hoping someone can give me advice because I'm not sure how to approach with her. Also my grandma is a hoarder so I'm somewhat familiar with this issue.

Update: She's traveling this weekend to adopt another dog 🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️

[af1212]

Could you approach it from a safety concern? There is a hoarder that lives several blocks from me and recently her house caught fire. It was terrifying and so dangerous. The fire fighters out it out relatively quickly but the house has been condemned.

Maybe would be easier for her to hear that you are concerned about safety?

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 14:16:36 GMT -5 af1212 said:

Could you approach it from a safety concern? There is a hoarder that lives several blocks from me and recently her house caught fire. It was terrifying and so dangerous. The fire fighters out it out relatively quickly but the house has been condemned.

Maybe would be easier for her to hear that you are concerned about safety?

yes although I don't know that the actual hoarding has gotten to be a safety concern. But I'm definitely concerned about the health risks from animal waste, she has issues with migraines and this can't be healthy for her.

[tiki]

I'm not sure you can do much to help unless she asks or is really committed to change. Someone external coming in and cleaning things up is usually just a temporary fix (and often painful and embarrassing for the person) since it doesn't address the root cause(s).

I do think it's helpful to continue advising her against adopting another dog. I had to stop visiting my parents for a while in my 20s due to the situation at their house. Things got so much better once their kids were all grown (less laundry, less to manage in general, less confusion about who was responsible for cleaning what) and they got down to just one pet.

[laterz]

Aug 25, 2020 13:56:35 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

A friend of mine is struggling with her mental health. I've known her for a few years and when we met she lived in an apartment, her 3 dogs lived with her parents. Two years ago, she bought a house and her dogs came to live with her. Her sister and dog later moved in and my friend adopted another dog for a total of 5 dogs. The dogs destroyed her house and for a long time she did not have me come over. About a year ago I briefly came into the house, the house reaked, dog poop and hair everywhere. Since then she ripped up the carpet downstairs. Also 2 of her elderly dogs passed away. She is now thinking of getting another dog (I've suggested this is not a good idea).

I saw her house this weekend to help her load up her car before we went to the lake. She had me go up to her bedroom and her carpet is brown from pee stains. It's bad. In the past I've told her I thought therapy would help but I've never addressed this particular issue. In general, her house is a mess and she's definitely a hoarder. She's mentioned her mom is a shopaholic and I've seen some pics of her childhood home and noticed animal stains so she may be used to living this way.

How do i address this with her? I plan to do this via text rather than in person.

I'm also not sure I'm interested in helping her get her home in order. While I care about her, she can be very negative and looks to me for emotional support so I've had to create many boundaries with her.

Hoping someone can give me advice because I'm not sure how to approach with her. Also my grandma is a hoarder so I'm somewhat familiar with this issue.

I think your heart is in the right place, but given the bolded, do you think your feedback will be received well?  What if she asks for your help?   (I'm not suggesting don't share your concerns, just consider how she might respond to it and be prepared.)

[rosiebear]

Oh man. I’m sorry. One of my sisters and a sister in law live in absolute filth and they have been though multiple total cleanups, only to refill their homes in short order.

It’s a serious disorder and I see only frustration for you if you try to get involved. I’m sorry.

[cjcouple]

Oh this is so hard. My MIL has some major hoarding issues. Not to the extent with animal feces and urine but just stuff everywhere. Her place is packed to the brim plus 2 sheds and many cars on the property just packed to the ceiling with stuff.

Her issues are deeply rooted in her childhood. They were extremely poor. Example: 1 bed with no sheets to share with 5 sisters, only 2 towels for all 10 family members to share, no shoes or even toilet paper often times. its heartbreaking

These issues are also complicated because my DH lost his older 25yo brother to cancer about 19 years ago. So she cannot let go of any of his possessions.

All we have been able to do is encourage her to get into therapy and gently support her when she does try to declutter. It's a difficult situation. DH and I are resolved to the fact, we will just have to deal with anything left behind after she passes because we can't help those issues.

[lurkie22]

Lurker chiming in, because my grandmother was a hoarder and because up until COVID, I worked with older adults where hoarding was often a concern.

Does your friend want help with the hoarding, or is it coming up now because you saw her house? I only ask because the hardest part of my job was accepting that as much as we might be upset by how someone is living and want them to have a healthier, cleaner, more organized life, ultimately it's up to that person. My coworker really opened my eyes by telling me that as much as we might dislike the situation, if the person doesn't want help, it's their right to live at risk. That really stuck with me. With something as emotionally laden as hoarding, there's an extra-fine line between interfering and helping. Unless she's telling you her house is a problem, I probably wouldn't get involved. Like you said, she might be used to living that way and not see it as a problem.

On the other hand, if she's asking for help or expressing that it's a problem to her, you could always research professional organizers or hoarding resources and give some recommendations to her. Where I live, there are lots of those resources (mostly targeted towards seniors and helping with downsizing, but I'm sure they would help anyone). I agree with you that it shouldn't be you directly doing the clean up or organizing work, but you can still help by being a resource person. What she does with those resources is up ultimately up to her. That way both of your boundaries are respected.

You're a good friend for caring - it's hard to watch people live in a way that we know isn't good for them.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 14:25:28 GMT -5 tiki said:

I'm not sure you can do much to help unless she asks or is really committed to change. Someone external coming in and cleaning things up is usually just a temporary fix (and often painful and embarrassing for the person) since it doesn't address the root cause(s).

I do think it's helpful to continue advising her against adopting another dog. I had to stop visiting my parents for a while in my 20s due to the situation at their house. Things got so much better once their kids were all grown (less laundry, less to manage in general, less confusion about who was responsible for cleaning what) and they got down to just one pet.

While I agree that I can't do much, I don't feel like i should sit here idly and pretend like the situation is okay or healthy.

I'm not sure anyone in her life is honest with her (both her sister and her friend lives with her). I feel like her mom is an enabler. I have no expectations that anything will change but I do feel like it's my responsibility to let her know this isn't a healthy situation.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 14:48:50 GMT -5 lurkie22 said:

Lurker chiming in, because my grandmother was a hoarder and because up until COVID, I worked with older adults where hoarding was often a concern.

Does your friend want help with the hoarding, or is it coming up now because you saw her house? I only ask because the hardest part of my job was accepting that as much as we might be upset by how someone is living and want them to have a healthier, cleaner, more organized life, ultimately it's up to that person. My coworker really opened my eyes by telling me that as much as we might dislike the situation, if the person doesn't want help, it's their right to live at risk. That really stuck with me. With something as emotionally laden as hoarding, there's an extra-fine line between interfering and helping. Unless she's telling you her house is a problem, I probably wouldn't get involved. Like you said, she might be used to living that way and not see it as a problem.

On the other hand, if she's asking for help or expressing that it's a problem to her, you could always research professional organizers or hoarding resources and give some recommendations to her. Where I live, there are lots of those resources (mostly targeted towards seniors and helping with downsizing, but I'm sure they would help anyone). I agree with you that it shouldn't be you directly doing the clean up or organizing work, but you can still help by being a resource person. What she does with those resources is up ultimately up to her. That way both of your boundaries are respected.

You're a good friend for caring - it's hard to watch people live in a way that we know isn't good for them.

She hasn't asked me for help with the hoarding and hasn't acknowledged the situation other than saying "sorry it smells like pee."

She does often talk to me about her mental and physical health in general so I don't think I would be out of bounds to bring this up.

[flygirl]

I think hoarding things is a bit different than the sanitary issues she has. However, I think the only thing you can do is tell her she should really talk to someone about it because of the issues it causes with her health. I’m assuming if the sister is living with her she’s similar? I’m sorry, that’s a tough situation,

[purplepenguin7]

Do you know that her mental health is suffering? Has she asked for her? I’m sure you mean well, but realistically you may not be able to help her especially if she doesn’t want it or if you aren’t going to be able to physically help her. I say this as someone on the other side, with a lot of pets that are destroying my home, and also just have a lot of stuff in a small house. Short of someone taking my 12 year old cat who’s been on a litter box strike for 6 years, there really isn’t anything anyone could do to help me. That being said, I basically don’t let anyone into my house because I know it’s terrible so maybe she doesn’t see that and needs a little nudging (like encouraging her not to get another pet).

[winecat]

I found these two orgs: www.clutterhoardingcleanup.com/ and www.squalorsurvivors.com/index.shtml.

I've dealt with this with family and if she doesn't get help to address the issues, she'll fill it back up.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 15:51:43 GMT -5 purplepenguin7 said:

Do you know that her mental health is suffering? Has she asked for her? I’m sure you mean well, but realistically you may not be able to help her especially if she doesn’t want it or if you aren’t going to be able to physically help her. I say this as someone on the other side, with a lot of pets that are destroying my home, and also just have a lot of stuff in a small house. Short of someone taking my 12 year old cat who’s been on a litter box strike for 6 years, there really isn’t anything anyone could do to help me. That being said, I basically don’t let anyone into my house because I know it’s terrible so maybe she doesn’t see that and needs a little nudging (like encouraging her not to get another pet).

Yes her mental health is suffering. She has been open with me about this.

I don't have any expectations that I can help solve this issue for her nor do I want that burden. But I do think I should bring it up with her because I'm not sure if she realizes how bad the issue is.

This is also wayyyyy beyond a pet with incontinence issues.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 15:46:08 GMT -5 flygirl said:

I think hoarding things is a bit different than the sanitary issues she has. However, I think the only thing you can do is tell her she should really talk to someone about it because of the issues it causes with her health. I’m assuming if the sister is living with her she’s similar? I’m sorry, that’s a tough situation,

I could be wrong but I think they're linked. Hoarders often live in very unsanitary conditions and then there's animal hoarding. I feel like she's suffering from both of those issues.

[HRH Queen Dick I, Orphan]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

I know this isn't helpful so don't you dare @ me Mofo. But this kind of stuff just blows my mind.

If I had my way I would own nothing but the clothes on my back.

[nsl]

A dear friend of mine teeters on the brink of hoarding tendencies and her home is definitely unsanitary in the way you describe your friend's. I did bring it up once with her, in the context of talking about a move I was making and having my house packed up/being forced to really decide what I did and didn't want to own anymore. She was very frank and said that she didn't know how she'd emotionally handle getting rid of even some of her stuff--that everything was tied up in how she felt about it when she got it, or who she got it from. A therapist probably would have been able to talk her through the process after a lot of work, but as her friend there's no way I ever could.

It's hard because I really care about her and I know that at least some of her anxiety has to stem from being surrounded by so much clutter and dirt all day every day, but unless she wants help there really is nothing I can do.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 19:54:09 GMT -5 nsl said:

A dear friend of mine teeters on the brink of hoarding tendencies and her home is definitely unsanitary in the way you describe your friend's. I did bring it up once with her, in the context of talking about a move I was making and having my house packed up/being forced to really decide what I did and didn't want to own anymore. She was very frank and said that she didn't know how she'd emotionally handle getting rid of even some of her stuff--that everything was tied up in how she felt about it when she got it, or who she got it from. A therapist probably would have been able to talk her through the process after a lot of work, but as her friend there's no way I ever could.

It's hard because I really care about her and I know that at least some of her anxiety has to stem from being surrounded by so much clutter and dirt all day every day, but unless she wants help there really is nothing I can do.

ya I get that

I'm really just looking for advice on how to approach my concerns with her. I do feel I need to address it but don't have high hopes as she hasn't been very proactive about other issues in her life

[letsgetweird]

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around her asking me to come up to her bedroom considering how awful it was. Makes me think she's not grasping how bad and how unsanitary the situation is.

[TR]

I do think you're in a tricky spot if you want to encourage her to get help, but not help her do that due to needing boundaries. Needing those boundaries is totally healthy and ok, but it also kind of limits the level of intervention you can attempt, I think.

[sent]

I want to say you are an awesome friend. While I don't have this particular hoarding and pet problem, I often think about what I wish my friends would have said to me as they witnessed me over the years living through a different kind of bad situation. I was being oblivious and ignoring all the bad stuff which sounds like what your friend is going through. No friends ever said to me "hey, your situation is really bad because xyz reasons. Normal in this situation looks like (abc descriptions). I knew you before you got into this mess. You're being oblivious and this isn't good for you." Instead my friends just glossed over me being stupid while they lived their best lives. However, they were all there for me when I got sick so I don't want to write them off forever. So now I question if making people aware when they are making really bad life choices is something friends are even supposed to do so I understand your predicament.

If my issue had been the situation you described above, I wish they would have said "Dear friend, it is not normal to live in a house that looks like this. There are health and safety concerns to be surrounded by so many belongings and so much animal waste in such a small space. Things like disease transmission and increased risk of fire. I'm sending you some articles about these things. Not to mention this is killing the resale value of your house when you do someday sell it. There are professionals trained to help you with this exact issue and I can connect you with some. Please let me know because as your friend, it hurts me to see you like this."

I wouldn't mention anything about cleaning up the house because that's not the root of the problem here.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 21:14:00 GMT -5 TR said:

I do think you're in a tricky spot if you want to encourage her to get help, but not help her do that due to needing boundaries. Needing those boundaries is totally healthy and ok, but it also kind of limits the level of intervention you can attempt, I think.

I hadn't thought of it that way but not sure if I'm on board with this line of thinking.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 21:25:08 GMT -5 sent said:

I want to say you are an awesome friend. While I don't have this particular hoarding and pet problem, I often think about what I wish my friends would have said to me as they witnessed me over the years living through a different kind of bad situation. I was being oblivious and ignoring all the bad stuff which sounds like what your friend is going through. No friends ever said to me "hey, your situation is really bad because xyz reasons. Normal in this situation looks like (abc descriptions). I knew you before you got into this mess. You're being oblivious and this isn't good for you." Instead my friends just glossed over me being stupid while they lived their best lives. However, they were all there for me when I got sick so I don't want to write them off forever. So now I question if making people aware when they are making really bad life choices is something friends are even supposed to do so I understand your predicament.

If my issue had been the situation you described above, I wish they would have said "Dear friend, it is not normal to live in a house that looks like this. There are health and safety concerns to be surrounded by so many belongings and so much animal waste in such a small space. Things like disease transmission and increased risk of fire. I'm sending you some articles about these things. Not to mention this is killing the resale value of your house when you do someday sell it. There are professionals trained to help you with this exact issue and I can connect you with some. Please let me know because as your friend, it hurts me to see you like this."

I wouldn't mention anything about cleaning up the house because that's not the root of the problem here.

Thank you, this is good advice

[TR]

Aug 25, 2020 21:25:17 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

Aug 25, 2020 21:14:00 GMT -5 TR said:

I do think you're in a tricky spot if you want to encourage her to get help, but not help her do that due to needing boundaries. Needing those boundaries is totally healthy and ok, but it also kind of limits the level of intervention you can attempt, I think.

I hadn't thought of it that way but not sure if I'm on board with this line of thinking.

Is it just the physical act of cleaning the house that you don't want to get involved with? Would you be willing to look up therapists or help her get started? It just seems harsh to say, "Hey I think you need help, call me when you're better." But maybe I misread and you are willing to do some of that.

[sofamonkey]

It almost sounds like she’s at an acquaintance level in your life. You don’t really like spending time with her, which is totally fine, as is setting limits and boundaries. It also seems more like you feel compelled to do something because you’re aware of things, but don’t actually want to do anything, and are kind of having a difficult time reconciling the conflicting urges to do nothing and do something.

It’s ok to not do anything if you don’t want to. She lives with 2 other adults, and they may (or may not) all have some similar issues from the description you gave. They are likely very aware of the issues.

Is she complaining about the situation at all? If not, I’d honestly just not say anything to her from your description of your friendship. If she’s complaining about it, that’s a little different. You can either decide to help or set another boundary about not talking about something she’s not willing to do anything about.

I’d have a hard time watching someone continuously making bad choices, that will affect her health as well. I’d either be willing to be frank, or be willing to distance myself. I’m sorry you’re in this weird and difficult position.

[HRH Queen Dick I, Orphan]

Aug 25, 2020 21:43:39 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Aug 25, 2020 19:38:08 GMT -5 HRH Queen Dick I, Orphan said:

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

I know this isn't helpful so don't you dare @ me Mofo. But this kind of stuff just blows my mind.

If I had my way I would own nothing but the clothes on my back.

I am a minimalist, you know this. I can’t imagine being a hoarder, gambler, or having an eating disorder, but I do enjoy alcohol entirely too much and can see how that path goes. I think everyone has something they struggle with. Many people don’t understand alcoholism, and I’m jealous of people who can say ‘yeah I drink twice a year, the headaches or whatever just weren’t worth it’. 

Bet you were expecting a gif, lol.

You know I have a long colorful list of obsessions and pathologies. Just not hoarding.

Actually, I looked it up and I may have a touch of the opposite: obsessive compulsive spartanism.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 21:32:05 GMT -5 TR said:

Aug 25, 2020 21:25:17 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

I hadn't thought of it that way but not sure if I'm on board with this line of thinking.

Is it just the physical act of cleaning the house that you don't want to get involved with? Would you be willing to look up therapists or help her get started? It just seems harsh to say, "Hey I think you need help, call me when you're better." But maybe I misread and you are willing to do some of that.

You misread lol

I'm not interested in physical cleaning her home. I'd be willing but somewhat hesitant to help her find a therapist.

Several years ago I basically did all the legwork in helping my brother get into rehab for his alcoholism and I came to the conclusion if he was really interested in getting help, he would have been more involved in the process. Maybe I'm off base here with that line of thinking.

[skidunks]

We are currently dealing with this with my MIL and omg, it’s so hard. I don’t have any advice that hasn’t already been given but wanted you to know I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

[letsgetweird]

Aug 25, 2020 21:54:13 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

It almost sounds like she’s at an acquaintance level in your life. You don’t really like spending time with her, which is totally fine, as is setting limits and boundaries. It also seems more like you feel compelled to do something because you’re aware of things, but don’t actually want to do anything, and are kind of having a difficult time reconciling the conflicting urges to do nothing and do something.

It’s ok to not do anything if you don’t want to. She lives with 2 other adults, and they may (or may not) all have some similar issues from the description you gave. They are likely very aware of the issues.

Is she complaining about the situation at all? If not, I’d honestly just not say anything to her from your description of your friendship. If she’s complaining about it, that’s a little different. You can either decide to help or set another boundary about not talking about something she’s not willing to do anything about.

I’d have a hard time watching someone continuously making bad choices, that will affect her health as well. I’d either be willing to be frank, or be willing to distance myself. I’m sorry you’re in this weird and difficult position.

What have I said that makes you think she's just an acquaintance or that I don't like spending time with her?

If that was the case, I wouldn't worry about this at all and wouldn't even be friends with her at this point.

[sofamonkey]

Aug 25, 2020 22:11:17 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

Aug 25, 2020 21:54:13 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

It almost sounds like she’s at an acquaintance level in your life. You don’t really like spending time with her, which is totally fine, as is setting limits and boundaries. It also seems more like you feel compelled to do something because you’re aware of things, but don’t actually want to do anything, and are kind of having a difficult time reconciling the conflicting urges to do nothing and do something.

It’s ok to not do anything if you don’t want to. She lives with 2 other adults, and they may (or may not) all have some similar issues from the description you gave. They are likely very aware of the issues.

Is she complaining about the situation at all? If not, I’d honestly just not say anything to her from your description of your friendship. If she’s complaining about it, that’s a little different. You can either decide to help or set another boundary about not talking about something she’s not willing to do anything about.

I’d have a hard time watching someone continuously making bad choices, that will affect her health as well. I’d either be willing to be frank, or be willing to distance myself. I’m sorry you’re in this weird and difficult position.

What have I said that makes you think she's just an acquaintance or that I don't like spending time with her?

If that was the case, I wouldn't worry about this at all and wouldn't even be friends with her at this point.

Just the seeming distance and boundaries being set, etc. I assure you it wasn’t a judgment of your relationship status, just an observation from some of what you said sounds like it’s kind of headed that way. If it’s not, that’s fine too. Regardless of where your friendship actually is, the rest stands. You don’t need to do anything if you don’t want.

I’m sorry you felt that I was a attacking you. That was not my intention, and if I made you feel bad, I’m sorry