What have I said that makes you think she's just an acquaintance or that I don't like spending time with her?
If that was the case, I wouldn't worry about this at all and wouldn't even be friends with her at this point.
Just the seeming distance and boundaries being set, etc. I assure you it wasn’t a judgment of your relationship status, just an observation from some of what you said sounds like it’s kind of headed that way. If it’s not, that’s fine too. Regardless of where your friendship actually is, the rest stands. You don’t need to do anything if you don’t want.
I’m sorry you felt that I was a attacking you. That was not my intention, and if I made you feel bad, I’m sorry
I definitely want to say something. I feel sad she's living this way. She's been complaining of migraines and breathing issues and I have to wonder if the dog urine is causing the problems.
We are good friends and I see her often but our friendship hasn't been easy for me at times. I've often felt burdened by her issues and felt like she was using me as her personal therapist. What I'm referring to is beyond the normal venting between friends. This is why I'm hesitant to get overly involved but I truly don't think anyone her life is honest about how bad things have gotten. I do want to be delicate and don't want to embarrass her but I'd like to see her get help and be happy. I do understand i can't force her to get help.
We are currently dealing with this with my MIL and omg, it’s so hard. I don’t have any advice that hasn’t already been given but wanted you to know I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.
It's rough. Sorry to hear that you're dealing with this with your MIL.
Just the seeming distance and boundaries being set, etc. I assure you it wasn’t a judgment of your relationship status, just an observation from some of what you said sounds like it’s kind of headed that way. If it’s not, that’s fine too. Regardless of where your friendship actually is, the rest stands. You don’t need to do anything if you don’t want.
I’m sorry you felt that I was a attacking you. That was not my intention, and if I made you feel bad, I’m sorry
I definitely want to say something. I feel sad she's living this way. She's been complaining of migraines and breathing issues and I have to wonder if the dog urine is causing the problems.
We are good friends and I see her often but our friendship hasn't been easy for me at times. I've often felt burdened by her issues and felt like she was using me as her personal therapist. What I'm referring to is beyond the normal venting between friends. This is why I'm hesitant to get overly involved but I truly don't think anyone her life is honest about how bad things have gotten. I do want to be delicate and don't want to embarrass her but I'd like to see her get help and be happy. I do understand i can't force her to get help.
I think you have it right there.
Friend, I want to be delicate, and I don’t want to embarrass you. I care about you. I want to see you be happy! Some things you’ve said about your health have concerned me. Also, I’m seeing some things around your house that I think might be adding to that. Know this is coming from a place of care and concern. When I was at your house, I saw (and be specific and to the point, keep it brief). It concerns me because I think it may be contributing to your health issues. How can I help?
I definitely want to say something. I feel sad she's living this way. She's been complaining of migraines and breathing issues and I have to wonder if the dog urine is causing the problems.
We are good friends and I see her often but our friendship hasn't been easy for me at times. I've often felt burdened by her issues and felt like she was using me as her personal therapist. What I'm referring to is beyond the normal venting between friends. This is why I'm hesitant to get overly involved but I truly don't think anyone her life is honest about how bad things have gotten. I do want to be delicate and don't want to embarrass her but I'd like to see her get help and be happy. I do understand i can't force her to get help.
I think you have it right there.
Friend, I want to be delicate, and I don’t want to embarrass you. I care about you. I want to see you be happy! Some things you’ve said about your health have concerned me. Also, I’m seeing some things around your house that I think might be adding to that. Know this is coming from a place of care and concern. When I was at your house, I saw (and be specific and to the point, keep it brief). It concerns me because I think it may be contributing to your health issues. How can I help?
If you are feeling complicit in your silence on the current state of her home, I can see how a text message telling her that her house is not okay is tempting. Several times you mentioned something like “I don’t think anyone else is telling her, she grew up this way”. So, I get it. But there are 3 adults living there and it’s only been 2 years and you described it as “destroyed”. That’s a lot of people to notice some really obvious damage. This isn’t about someone sending you a wake-up call via text. This is deep, entrenched and long-lasting.
You can and should stop being complicit in your silence. But break the silence in a meaning and personal way. When she said her migraines are not under control say “It’s probably the house”. When she says she wants to adopt another dog say “That house is not sanitary enough to adopt a dog. It wouldn’t be fair to bring another dog into a home like yours. And it’s not fair to the two who already live with you.”
It’s always embarrassing to acknowledge each other’s messiness in life. It might be easier for you to text “Listen, I just gotta get this off my chest.” but it’s so easily dismissed, it’s hardly worth your effort.
Is it just the physical act of cleaning the house that you don't want to get involved with? Would you be willing to look up therapists or help her get started? It just seems harsh to say, "Hey I think you need help, call me when you're better." But maybe I misread and you are willing to do some of that.
You misread lol
I'm not interested in physical cleaning her home. I'd be willing but somewhat hesitant to help her find a therapist.
Several years ago I basically did all the legwork in helping my brother get into rehab for his alcoholism and I came to the conclusion if he was really interested in getting help, he would have been more involved in the process. Maybe I'm off base here with that line of thinking.
Your last paragraph struck me. When I had my second child I had postpartum anxiety for almost a year before I saw anyone about it. There were so many reasons I didn’t seek help but none of them are because I didn’t want help. Finally my husband researched different providers, called them, figured out the insurance, got me the appts, figured out the childcare so I could go, etc.
I was not involved in the process at all but I was definitely interested in and needed the help. When you’re suffering from illness (which hoarding and alcoholism both are) sometimes you can’t be involved in the process. Even if you really need and are interested in the help.
This is tough, and you're a good friend for wanting to address it with her.
I think the couple of direct examples given upthread are helpful. If you can, I'd do this face to face or in a phone call, not via text. One thing I learned the hard way is that texts can actually be a really awful way to communicate on tough subjects. You can't read tone very well in a text, and the short nature of them means you aren't able to say everything you want to say before they read your first thought, so by the time you get through what you want to say, they have already spent time formulating a response and getting upset. If you must write, I'd send an email so you can say everything you want to say and give her space to absorb it. But I think what would be even better would be to gently bring this up next time you see her or next time she brings up her migraines or other issues. That would make it seem less out of the blue, and might help her make the connection between whatever it is she's complaining about and what you're seeing.
I understand wanting to keep boundaries, too. I was very involved in a friend's mental health issues about 9 years ago, and it was too much. Our friendship ended at least in part because of this, and I never want to go down that road again (honestly *I* probably could use some therapy around that, because it's put up walls with other friendships since). So - I think it's great that you're bringing this up, but I think you're wise to decide in advance how much you want to actually take on and keep whatever boundary you set. Good luck.
This is tough, and you're a good friend for wanting to address it with her.
I think the couple of direct examples given upthread are helpful. If you can, I'd do this face to face or in a phone call, not via text. One thing I learned the hard way is that texts can actually be a really awful way to communicate on tough subjects. You can't read tone very well in a text, and the short nature of them means you aren't able to say everything you want to say before they read your first thought, so by the time you get through what you want to say, they have already spent time formulating a response and getting upset. If you must write, I'd send an email so you can say everything you want to say and give her space to absorb it. But I think what would be even better would be to gently bring this up next time you see her or next time she brings up her migraines or other issues. That would make it seem less out of the blue, and might help her make the connection between whatever it is she's complaining about and what you're seeing.
I understand wanting to keep boundaries, too. I was very involved in a friend's mental health issues about 9 years ago, and it was too much. Our friendship ended at least in part because of this, and I never want to go down that road again (honestly *I* probably could use some therapy around that, because it's put up walls with other friendships since). So - I think it's great that you're bringing this up, but I think you're wise to decide in advance how much you want to actually take on and keep whatever boundary you set. Good luck.
All good points
And I appreciate that you understand being overly involved in someone's mental health and how that's not healthy. Not sure if I'm coming off as callous because I want to limit how I help her but I also have to do what's right for me and its difficult to explain my history with her on a message board.
My aunt was a hoarder for decades. We cleaned up her house twice after my uncle died. Think 25 paring knives (just paring knives let alone other knives and cutlery), 7 dumpsters of just trash once we cleaned, etc. There were pathways in the house through the shit, so she could move from room to room. At one point she actually slipped on the trash on the floor and broke her ankle, which triggered a downslide of many other health issues and mental health issues that she had hidden from us. She recently passed away at only 75 and her issues never went away. It's a tough pattern to break.
It's hard to compare her vs others and your friend vs other circumstances because everyone is so different. The scripts you received from others were great. Keep us updated and let me know if you ever want to chat.
I don't have experience with hoarding, but I do with people in my life having depression and using me as a therapist. I actually had 2 at once (my H and my co-worker), and finally it became too much for me. I ended up moving offices away from my co-worker. In terms of DH, I had a CTJ talk with him about his mental health. I was pretty harsh. I did convince him to go to therapy, and I did help him find a therapist. However, I was not allowed to book him an appointment- only a patient can do that.
I agree you need boundaries to prevent your from being put in that therapist role again. I would encourage her to seek therapy and assist with a couple of recommendations to call and suggest Employee Assistance Program if she works. Be prepared for some major blowback. Most people get upset when other people suggest therapy. DH was angry with me for months about it, but I don't regret it, and it did help him and now (2.5 years later) I don't think he regrets it either. It is possible something like this could end a friendship which is sad, but might be worth it if they end up getting the help that they need. I think I am too blunt in the way I word things, so I like some of the wording that other posters have mentioned.
I wouldn't have been able to bite my tongue for so long as you, as soon as they start mentioning other dogs and migraines I think I would have had to say something. I would also do this face to face. It should be fairly easy if you see her a lot and she brings up depression and pets a lot, that is a perfect segway to say hey you've been talking about your mental health a lot and ….
One of the reasons that DH did go into therapy is that I told him hey I can't talk to you about this stuff anymore. I can't be your therapist (emotional crutch), and I will no longer discuss it unless you get help. Again use better wording because I am too direct probably and our relationship would be different/ more able to handle directness than a friend relationship. But it turned out to be a good way to set that boundary and also get help for him. I am not a professional therapist and there was nothing more I could do to help since I didn't have those skills/ tools like a professional would.
I don't have experience with hoarding, but I do with people in my life having depression and using me as a therapist. I actually had 2 at once (my H and my co-worker), and finally it became too much for me. I ended up moving offices away from my co-worker. In terms of DH, I had a CTJ talk with him about his mental health. I was pretty harsh. I did convince him to go to therapy, and I did help him find a therapist. However, I was not allowed to book him an appointment- only a patient can do that.
I agree you need boundaries to prevent your from being put in that therapist role again. I would encourage her to seek therapy and assist with a couple of recommendations to call and suggest Employee Assistance Program if she works. Be prepared for some major blowback. Most people get upset when other people suggest therapy. DH was angry with me for months about it, but I don't regret it, and it did help him and now (2.5 years later) I don't think he regrets it either. It is possible something like this could end a friendship which is sad, but might be worth it if they end up getting the help that they need. I think I am too blunt in the way I word things, so I like some of the wording that other posters have mentioned.
I wouldn't have been able to bite my tongue for so long as you, as soon as they start mentioning other dogs and migraines I think I would have had to say something. I would also do this face to face. It should be fairly easy if you see her a lot and she brings up depression and pets a lot, that is a perfect segway to say hey you've been talking about your mental health a lot and ….
One of the reasons that DH did go into therapy is that I told him hey I can't talk to you about this stuff anymore. I can't be your therapist (emotional crutch), and I will no longer discuss it unless you get help. Again use better wording because I am too direct probably and our relationship would be different/ more able to handle directness than a friend relationship. But it turned out to be a good way to set that boundary and also get help for him. I am not a professional therapist and there was nothing more I could do to help since I didn't have those skills/ tools like a professional would.
Thanks for chiming in and I appreciate the comments about boundaries.
It can really be exhausting when someone constantly uses you as a therapist. Not interested in doing that again!
It's hard for me to wrap my mind around her asking me to come up to her bedroom considering how awful it was. Makes me think she's not grasping how bad and how unsanitary the situation is.
Or - she trusts you enough to let you into a situation about which she feels incredible shame.
I would tread very, very carefully. She felt safe enough to let you in, if your first response is to tell her to get help, it may feel like "this is awful! You need help and I need to get out of here because i can't be part of that."
That doesn't mean you need to do nothing. Can you start with a simple conversation acknowledging that her situation must be difficult? Rather than addressing the big picture, can you help her come up with a plan for toilet training the animals? Something that addresses the most pressing sanitation menace without making it part of the big, and impossible seeming task of her hoarding.
It's hard for me to wrap my mind around her asking me to come up to her bedroom considering how awful it was. Makes me think she's not grasping how bad and how unsanitary the situation is.
Or - she trusts you enough to let you into a situation about which she feels incredible shame.
I would tread very, very carefully. She felt safe enough to let you in, if your first response is to tell her to get help, it may feel like "this is awful! You need help and I need to get out of here because i can't be part of that."
That doesn't mean you need to do nothing. Can you start with a simple conversation acknowledging that her situation must be difficult? Rather than addressing the big picture, can you help her come up with a plan for toilet training the animals? Something that addresses the most pressing sanitation menace without making it part of the big, and impossible seeming task of her hoarding.
The first part of your post is a good point and not something that I've thought about.
We've had conversations about the potty training issues and I've given her suggestions. I've given her tips on how I've trained dogs in the past, letting her know to soak up the pee first, i told her I use Nature's miracle for pet stains, suggested pee pads. Any other suggestions? In general she doesn't train her pets so I'm lost on what I could do to help.
And while I think the hoarding is an issue, my main concern here is the unsanitary conditions she's living in regarding the pet waste.
Or - she trusts you enough to let you into a situation about which she feels incredible shame.
I would tread very, very carefully. She felt safe enough to let you in, if your first response is to tell her to get help, it may feel like "this is awful! You need help and I need to get out of here because i can't be part of that."
That doesn't mean you need to do nothing. Can you start with a simple conversation acknowledging that her situation must be difficult? Rather than addressing the big picture, can you help her come up with a plan for toilet training the animals? Something that addresses the most pressing sanitation menace without making it part of the big, and impossible seeming task of her hoarding.
The first part of your post is a good point and not something that I've thought about.
We've had conversations about the potty training issues and I've given her suggestions. I've given her tips on how I've trained dogs in the past, letting her know to soak up the pee first, i told her I use Nature's miracle for pet stains, suggested pee pads. Any other suggestions? In general she doesn't train her pets so I'm lost on what I could do to help.
And while I think the hoarding is an issue, my main concern here is the unsanitary conditions she's living in regarding the pet waste.
Ugh. Yeah. Has she told you why? This needs a come to jesus talk with someone - but not you, a professional. Would she let a kid walk around pooping on the floor? Would she do that herself? If not, why does she think it's okay to have pets who do that?
Post by SusanBAnthony on Aug 27, 2020 8:24:28 GMT -5
I feel you. I definitely think it's ok to tell her you think it's a problem and you are worried, without volunteering to actually help. Lots of people have given you some specific words. I'd just think about what you want to talk about- seems like the main points are: -this is not normal -this is likely contributing to your health problems -you need to not adopt more animals -you need to train and/or crate your current animals (or clean up the house,or whatever else you feel needs to happen) in order to be safe in your house -here is the name of an organization that has therapists or cleaners or whatever, can I sit with you while you call them and set up an appointment?
^^ to me I wouldn't want to get more involved than providing a suggestion of who to call and sitting with her while she called, but you can decide your line is where ever you want it to be.
I feel you. I definitely think it's ok to tell her you think it's a problem and you are worried, without volunteering to actually help. Lots of people have given you some specific words. I'd just think about what you want to talk about- seems like the main points are: -this is not normal -this is likely contributing to your health problems -you need to not adopt more animals -you need to train and/or crate your current animals (or clean up the house,or whatever else you feel needs to happen) in order to be safe in your house -here is the name of an organization that has therapists or cleaners or whatever, can I sit with you while you call them and set up an appointment?
^^ to me I wouldn't want to get more involved than providing a suggestion of who to call and sitting with her while she called, but you can decide your line is where ever you want it to be.
Post by foundmylazybum on Aug 27, 2020 10:14:39 GMT -5
A lot of times we want to address the problem. Not the person, which is fine sometimes but not every time.
In this case, you are not really qualified to address the problem but you are qualified to address the person.
So, some thoughts you could express:
I care a lot about you and you are right, I also agree that the smell is overwhelming. How are you managing it?
I want you to know that I'm concerned about you, and I'd like to support you because we all need that and deserve happiness.
I honestly believe that you are correct, that this is a really hard conversation to be honest about so then we deflect. Laugh it off or change the subject.
Instead, there are a few openings to gently sit with her and say, "yes, you are right, it IS a bit messy in here. Whats that like for you?"
Thats all you really have to do is ask for her experience about it and listen.
Post by letsgetweird on Sept 14, 2020 22:28:33 GMT -5
Update: I've been hesitant to bring the subject up because she's about to have surgery and her roommate is dealing with some mental health issues which has been stressful
But tonight she said she's getting another dog so I addressed it. She mostly brushed off my concerns.
I’m sorry. I think the answer is something I repeat often to myself: “You can’t solve everyone else’s problems.” Even when you want to, even when you think they really need solved, even when you’re doing it out of love, even when their life is a disaster.
I’m sorry. I think the answer is something I repeat often to myself: “You can’t solve everyone else’s problems.” Even when you want to, even when you think they really need solved, even when you’re doing it out of love, even when their life is a disaster.
I completely agree. I'm not interested in solving her problems but wanted to bring it to her attention because I feel like her family enables her.
I have to decide how to proceed with this friendship (lots of other issues with her)
Update: I've been hesitant to bring the subject up because she's about to have surgery and her roommate is dealing with some mental health issues which has been stressful
But tonight she said she's getting another dog so I addressed it. She mostly brushed off my concerns.
Honestly, I would call the local animal control. It sounds like no one is safe in this situation. I worry the additional animal is going to continue to add to her health issues. If she cannot care for herself she cannot properly care for an animal.
Update: I've been hesitant to bring the subject up because she's about to have surgery and her roommate is dealing with some mental health issues which has been stressful
But tonight she said she's getting another dog so I addressed it. She mostly brushed off my concerns.
Honestly, I would call the local animal control. It sounds like no one is safe in this situation. I worry the additional animal is going to continue to add to her health issues. If she cannot care for herself she cannot properly care for an animal.
This is a heartbreaking situation.
I hear you but I think the animals are taken care of despite the disgusting conditions.
Honestly, I would call the local animal control. It sounds like no one is safe in this situation. I worry the additional animal is going to continue to add to her health issues. If she cannot care for herself she cannot properly care for an animal.
This is a heartbreaking situation.
I hear you but I think the animals are taken care of despite the disgusting conditions.
I’m more concerned about the health of her. As long as a roommate will/can assist then that makes sense.
Again, this is heartbreaking to hear. Mental health is always a huge pull on me. I struggle and know how hard it can be. I wish her and you the best. As others have said, stepping back is okay. You are not responsible for her mental well-being.
Honestly, I would call the local animal control. It sounds like no one is safe in this situation. I worry the additional animal is going to continue to add to her health issues. If she cannot care for herself she cannot properly care for an animal.
This is a heartbreaking situation.
I hear you but I think the animals are taken care of despite the disgusting conditions.
If she's living in an unhealthy situation, so are her animals. I don't care to go into detail, but I grew up in an unhealthy home (not animal poop on the floor unhealthy, but enough I believe it's given me certain allergies). You can't fix her. You tried talking to her, but mental illness is a tricky thing. People in it don't always see it. However, animals are innocent. If she's in an unhealthy home, so are they. The shelter where I volunteer has humane agents that regularly do checks like this. They don't always resort to seizing the animal, but they DO help let the owners know that situations are unhealthy and there is help out there.
I hear you but I think the animals are taken care of despite the disgusting conditions.
If she's living in an unhealthy situation, so are her animals. I don't care to go into detail, but I grew up in an unhealthy home (not animal poop on the floor unhealthy, but enough I believe it's given me certain allergies). You can't fix her. You tried talking to her, but mental illness is a tricky thing. People in it don't always see it. However, animals are innocent. If she's in an unhealthy home, so are they. The shelter where I volunteer has humane agents that regularly do checks like this. They don't always resort to seizing the animal, but they DO help let the owners know that situations are unhealthy and there is help out there.
I'm not trying to fix her. This is her problem, not mine.
I am sorry for your friend's circumstances, LGW. I have a friend who I think is probably a hoarder, too. It was bad the last time I was in her place and that was probably 15 years ago and it was pretty full then. She has had some really great (newer than me) friends for almost that long and I am sure none of them have ever been in her place.
I used to talk to my DH about it a lot because I felt bad, and I felt like I should do something. And then my husband said "She knows you would help her if she wanted it. She doesn't want the help."
And he is right. She doesn't have animals, but she has quite a few friends (myself included) who would show up and help her no matter what it took. She does know this because we all helped when she had family members moving and she needed to arrange their help.
There is only so much you can do when someone is okay with how things are. While I don't like it for her, I have to choose to let it go. She is a grown woman and there's not more to be done unless she reaches out to someone. And that person might never be me.
I can live with that. I have learned to live with that.
I hope you can find peace about this. I know it is hard to watch. I haven't even seen my friend's place in so long but I don't like the idea of what it probably is.
If she's living in an unhealthy situation, so are her animals. I don't care to go into detail, but I grew up in an unhealthy home (not animal poop on the floor unhealthy, but enough I believe it's given me certain allergies). You can't fix her. You tried talking to her, but mental illness is a tricky thing. People in it don't always see it. However, animals are innocent. If she's in an unhealthy home, so are they. The shelter where I volunteer has humane agents that regularly do checks like this. They don't always resort to seizing the animal, but they DO help let the owners know that situations are unhealthy and there is help out there.
I'm not trying to fix her. This is her problem, not mine.
I know you’re not trying fix her. I was commenting from my own personal experience, both from my past and as an animal shelter volunteer.
I'm not trying to fix her. This is her problem, not mine.
I know you’re not trying fix her. I was commenting from my own personal experience, both from my past and as an animal shelter volunteer.
if I were to report her, she would know it was me. I just don't feel comfortable with that at this point especially since we work for the same company.