@@So overwhelmed with current events, moving out of country…

[jmc325]

The current state of our country has me feeling physically sick. I’m just so terrified. I literally ran out of the mall the other day because someone, by himself and acting what I found to be strange, gave me an odd feeling.

Has anyone successfully left and moved out of the country? Am I ridiculous for wanting to do this? I’m married and have a young child (not yet in school). I want to leave. My husband has a wonderful job, we own a house, have a dog, all of our family lives within 30 minutes…. But I can’t do it. None of that is worth this. I know there are no guarantees of safety anywhere, but chances are better elsewhere.

If you could move anywhere to have a chance of a better life away from the politics of the USA where would you go? Would you do it? Or am I just overthinking and things will eventually be better here.

If anyone has left the states for any other country (especially Canada or the Netherlands ) I’d love to hear how you did it.

***Sorry, but I will DD after a bit***

[Michelle]

Raising kids in the U.S. gets harder every single year. ((jmc325))

Your first steps to consider emigrating include checking out what qualifications you have to do so. When Trump was elected, I investigated Canada and I had a 2-year window where i would still have enough points to be young enough to emigrate there. I'm too old now unless i win the lotto or find a specialty job they value there. Since i specialize in U.S. employment law and HR policy, I'm not really in demand there unless i found a Canadian company with ties across U.S. and Canada and I'd do the U.S. region.

I don't know anything about the Netherlands.

I do know Italy is the easiest European country to emigrate to, but not necessarily for work. I'd have to investigate that further. I was looking for retirement purposes. Sadly, they are behind most other EU nations on LGBTQ rights so I don't think i want to end up there unless they get more progressive.

Editing to add - if your fear of safety is escalating to where you are leaving public spaces in fear, you might seek therapy. I'm NOT saying your gut is wrong or you are wrong for those feelings. You just might be able to work out some coping mechanisms for the near future with help of a therapist.

[1confused1]

You need to add some @@ to your post title.

I am sorry you are having these feelings. I don’t have any advice, but ditto the above poster on possibly looking for a therapist to help you process your thoughts, if you aren’t already seeing someone.

[jmc325]

Thank you for your response! It’s so, so hard. I’m a new stay at home mom, and my husband works in finance. This is all in the beginning stages, so I still have tons of research to do. My husband says if we can make it work, he’d be up for it. It’s just figuring out HOW to do it. I feel like Canada in terms of lifestyle adaptation, location and ease of coming back home to see family, etc is easiest. Netherlands is somewhere I’ve been, love, and all things considered is still very familiar feeling. We’re in Texas (ugh…) so I’m definitely open to other places as well.

Oh, and I have my first therapy appointment scheduled for tomorrow. I’ve definitely had serious fear in going anywhere with my little one any mass shootings since they’ve been born, but between Buffalo and Uvalde, it’s pushed me over the edge.

May 31, 2022 14:16:24 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Raising kids in the U.S. gets harder every single year. ((jmc325))

Your first steps to consider emigrating include checking out what qualifications you have to do so. When Trump was elected, I investigated Canada and I had a 2-year window where i would still have enough points to be young enough to emigrate there. I'm too old now unless i win the lotto or find a specialty job they value there. Since i specialize in U.S. employment law and HR policy, I'm not really in demand there unless i found a Canadian company with ties across U.S. and Canada and I'd do the U.S. region.

I don't know anything about the Netherlands.

I do know Italy is the easiest European country to emigrate to, but not necessarily for work. I'd have to investigate that further. I was looking for retirement purposes. Sadly, they are behind most other EU nations on LGBTQ rights so I don't think i want to end up there unless they get more progressive.

Editing to add - if your fear of safety is escalating to where you are leaving public spaces in fear, you might seek therapy. I'm NOT saying your gut is wrong or you are wrong for those feelings. You just might be able to work out some coping mechanisms for the near future with help of a therapist.

[pugz]

I'm glad you are starting therapy. I'd explore with the therapist if anti-anxiety medication could be helpful for you. If you are having intrusive thoughts and the anxiety is interfering with your everyday life, you'd probably be a good candidate for medication. My primary care doctor is my prescriber for meds.

[shauni27]

first off, it sounds like you are having serious anxiety about this and I would also speak to your PCP about getting on an anxiety med. I have been so depressed thinking about that state of the country and the world many times, but it sounds like you are having above and beyond anxiety about it which should be treated. I say that as someone who has been exactly in your shoes.

Beyond that, I would say give it a few weeks of casual research; this might be just a gut reaction you are having and once you treat your anxiety you will decide you do not want to move. If what you learn about seems more and more appealing, then continue to do research and see what would work best for your family.

[pugz]

Also you are not alone. So many of us are terrified and paralyzed with fear. I'm seeing lots of people wanting to pull their kids and homeschool or make other drastic changes.

[mskitkat]

I have paralyzing medical anxiety (and a genetic disorder!), so you can imagine the past couple years have been a mess for me. Anxiety medication and therapy have been amazing. I fought medication hard for a while, but I am so glad I’m on it now.

Leaving the country is a valid life decision, but the current circumstances don’t necessitate leaving in a terrified panic.

[mx27]

Hugs jmc325. Your thoughts are not crazy. What is crazy is the state of this country. I’m glad your husband is in support of you. For such a big decision, make sure to take your time and do your research.

[wise_rita]

I've spent almost all of my adult life abroad (husband is foreign with a career in demand all over) and recommend not taking the approach of "I've been there on vacation, it seems nice, I'd like to go there". It's incredibly naive and lacks due diligence.

The realities of moving far away from everything you've ever known, especially your family, with kids, to a different language are NO JOKE and not to be treated as a safe haven that will fix all of your problems. It won't.

That said, a job transfer is your best bet, and that doesn't guarantee you a permanent stay abroad. Expats get a kick out of the starry eyed, "How do I move to your [often English-speaking] country just because I want to?" questions because it is just so unrealistic. That's not how the first world works. The country has got to want you.

[ssmjlm]

I have no plans to move due to family needs where we are, but my uncle and his life partner moved to Australia and it was a big shock for them back in early 2000s. They came back to America for a few years, but then went back to Australia.

They went via my uncle's partners work, which made things a little easier. My mom used to mail them stuff once a month or so from home because the COL was so much higher (and they were in Boston previously).

That said, they're staunchly in the "we're never coming to the US again, even to visit" at this point between Trump and COVID.

[wanderingback]

I agree with everyone else in regards to help dealing with anxiety first. That’s most important.

I lived abroad for almost 2 years and I know many many people that have moved outside of the US. Some have family connections, like a spouse who is a citizen of another country, others have found jobs and made it work. I have a friend who has lived in Europe for several years and is moving to Sierra Leone soon. So no I obviously don’t think it’s ridiculous but you do have to be realistic. My partner is not a US citizen and is a citizen of another country, but for now we are gonna stay in the US.

The first step would be to think about jobs/finances and then figure out where your jobs/finances could get you. Certain countries are more difficult than others. And the grass isn’t always greener but there are definitely pros and cons to different places. Moving somewhere is definitely very different than visiting!

[dutchgirl678]

I grew up in the Netherlands and my DH is American. We moved there from the US in 2014 and moved back in 2018. It seems nice but it is really hard to get a job there if you don't have a network of people to rely on. We moved because I got a job there in a very specialized field but my DH is a transportation engineer and he was basically a SAHD for 3 years. If you do find a job there, it should be in an environment where there are many expats, because otherwise you will soon feel left out. Dutch people are very nice and accommodating with speaking English when you are visiting but it is not necessarily the same when you work there.

But I do get your anxiety and stress and recently I have looked into what it would take to move to Canada. I don't think we will though. Moving to Europe and back was a huge hassle. We had to sell our house, get rid of all electronic equipment, move what furniture we had over there in a shipping container. We were lucky in that we were able to live in someone's vacation home for a few months while we looked for housing and then we were able to buy a house. Finding something to rent is almost impossible and many people are on a waitlist for years before they find something decent. Especially in Amsterdam and around the big cities.

[waverly]

Our friends moved to Australia in 2000. She is an audiologist and got a job though the healthcare system. He is a public school teacher but I don’t know if he studied that in undergrad or went back to school. She was sponsored and he didn’t get a job for a while after maybe 4-6 months. They are both citizens now.

[curbsideprophet]

Have you considered staying in the US but moving out of Texas?

[VillainV]

It’s not easy to move to another country. You’d have to be sponsored for some kind of work visa, which means usually finding a job that will hire you and sponsor you. These aren’t usually permanent moves, but can be long-term.

English-speaking countries can be very hard to emigrate to. They often have a much higher cost of living than we do, and very different lifestyle. Owning property can be challenging. Just about every country is going to have something undesirable about it, and many countries have similar (or worse) political turmoil. So definitely do your research.

We have enjoyed our time overseas, and would do it again for a few years, but it’s very hard being away from family.

[rupertpenny]

It shouldn't be impossible for your H to be transferred to an international office in finance, but the options might not be as tempting as you think. I know language proficiency isn't required for all jobs, but I would take a good, hard look at possible locations with large financial sectors where business is done in English.

Canada: This is probably your best bet, lifestyle-wise, but it's hard to imagine that an American banker has skills that can't be found in Canadian bankers.

Australia/New Zealand: Same as Canada but really far away.

United Kingdom: Due to Brexit a lot of international banks are moving operations out of London and to the continent.

Hong Kong: I have lived in HK and I loved it, but you couldn't pay me to go back now. The political situation is horrific, the COVID response was draconian, and many banks are moving the APAC headquarters elsewhere.

Singapore: This is where everyone in HK is moving. Overall expats have a very high standard of living but at the end of the day, Singapore is basically under the control of benevolent authoritarians. Plus, really far away and really hot.

[basilosaurus]

I've unfortunately been in a position of moving in a few countries. It's not easy. I was not given the chance to prepare mostly (once I was given a whole year of language). But, even with all those challenges, I might prefer it to USA.

As a solo traveler, I mostly deal with visa issues a few times a year. I did lose a whole lot when I was on a quick visa trip in 2020 that turned into 2 years, but no one could have predicted that.

Work visa has been a huge issue. I'm thankful it hasn't really affected me, but you'll want to make sure of that.

[NewOrleans]

I’m not kidding about this— but when I asked the board here a couple years ago, people responded that one way is to become a scuba teacher.

[dancelnow]

May 31, 2022 16:52:17 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I’m not kidding about this— but when I asked the board here a couple years ago, people responded that one way is to become a scuba teacher.

It is definitely a way to do it. This is our retirement plan. Doesn’t pay that well though. Most who do it are young and unattached.

[basilosaurus]

May 31, 2022 16:58:09 GMT -5 dancelnow said:

May 31, 2022 16:52:17 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I’m not kidding about this— but when I asked the board here a couple years ago, people responded that one way is to become a scuba teacher.

It is definitely a way to do it. This is our retirement plan. Doesn’t pay that well though. Most who do it are young and unattached.

Lol was this me? I'm scuba certified and looked into becoming a teacher locally. Turns out I'm too old and have too many medical issues (ie I once had a panic attack). 

But, it is a really good way to get a year long visa in Thailand if you're looking into that country. Another option there is to study the language and get an ed visa. Wherever you look there are potentially other visa options than tourist.

[pizzaandtulips]

I lived in the Netherlands for 5 years, and if I was told I could
move back there, I’d be on a plane tonight. I absolutely loved my life there. However, we were there because we were transferred by my husband’s company. They did all of the visa, sponsorship, relocation work. We were on a very good expat package and we were in a very expat-heavy community. From everything I know, it’s very difficult to just decide to move there unless you are being transferred by a company or on a specific visa to start your own business there. It isn’t an easy process. And I do understand the feeling of being overwhelmed and wanting out of this environment. But i will will also say that even though overall I loved my time there, there were many, many hard times and difficult situations about being in a new country. It really isn’t just a fun extended vacation. I’m sorry you are struggling

[krystee]

I would definitely treat your anxiety first and make sure you would not be trading one anxiety for another (e.g., from physical safety to loneliness/navigating completely new environment with no support network, etc.).

I would also look at moving to a state with tighter gun restrictions (and fewer abortion restrictions) as an option.

[heygrey]

I agree that you would benefit first from treating your anxiety, but I will still answer your question.

I immigrated to Canada from the US. I moved first for university, but ended up meeting and marring H who is a Canadian citizen so I immigrated under family class. I do have friends who obtained permanent residency through work visas. It’s not for the faint of heart. The employer has to repeatedly file paperwork stating that there was not a qualified Canadian applicant to maintain work status. You really need to work in a high demand industry or such a niche role that there isn’t competition. It’s expensive and time consuming, especially with delays related to covid staffing issues. The backlog on immigration is insane right now.

I really love living in Canada and we have no intention of ever moving to the states, but I’m also realistic about the faults here. Our country is more divided coming out of covid than I’ve ever known it. We have significant problems with racism, especially toward indigenous people. Our healthcare is free, but we have a shortage of doctors even in major cities. Guns still exist here, hunting is very popular in many areas. Though we do have significantly tighter weapon laws that are federally regulated, if you’re looking to get away from guns completely, this place is not it.

And while it’s not a negative to me, if you’re coming from Texas, our winters will be absolutely brutal. I live in one of the warmest regions of Canada and it’s still pretty miserable 4 months out of the year.

[VillainV]

May 31, 2022 16:52:17 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I’m not kidding about this— but when I asked the board here a couple years ago, people responded that one way is to become a scuba teacher.

Being any kind of teacher can be an avenue to overseas employment, though likely not in an English-speaking country. There are lots of places with large expat communities where you might not need to speak the local language to get around okay. The Middle East comes to mind (UAE, Bahrain, etc).

[underwaterrhymes]

May 31, 2022 16:52:17 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I’m not kidding about this— but when I asked the board here a couple years ago, people responded that one way is to become a scuba teacher.

😂 That was me.

My sister did this and loved it. She no longer does it, but her in-laws still run one of the dive shops she worked at and many of her friends have made successful careers outside of the US as SCUBA instructors.

[laurack]

I have thought about it too. I’m from Ireland so we could move there. The problem is I don’t like the climate there as much and I feel like here there are a lot more opportunities here and more activities, wonderful land travel options etc. I love our life here. But each time there is a school shooting I wonder if we should move.

I agree that moving states might help you though. Where we are there are decent gun laws (Massachusetts) and relatively low gun ownership rates. While it doesn’t mean I don’t worry about mass shootings, I do think I worry a lot less than I would if I lived in a state with little or no gun laws.

[isabel]

DH noted, unprompted, the other day that we qualify for enough points to move to New Zealand. We've visited twice and really love it there, but even with all the shit in the US, I'm not sure I could actually follow through with it. I do plan to chat about it with a US-based Kiwi coworker next week. Ultimately, I think moving away from our families is a nonstarter for us.

[Susie]

The pp's have given a lot of good advice.

To add to it... I live in NY state, and have for the last almost 20 years.  In the last year or so, I have thought more about my decision to settle here, and felt more gratitude and relief that I chose NY, than I ever imagined.  So many things I didn't think about at 18 when I chose a college in NY, and 22 when I chose a law school in NY, and 25 when I started my career in NY, largely around reproductive freedom, equality for the LGBTQ folks in my life, and reasonable gun laws.

Living in a blue state is not a panacea.  Obviously, we just had a mass shooting in Buffalo (which is a bunch of hours away from me, but still in-state).  But it really helps to live among like-minded and like-valued people, in my strongly blue-leaning community in a blue-leaning state.  

If you are in a red state (IDK where you are, but someone upthread mentioned TX?), I would try a blue state before a more drastic move.  In conjunction with therapy, it might be enough to get you to a better place (figuratively and possibly also literally).

[turkturkleton]

The first step is defintiely getting help (therapy, medication) for the anxiety. Even if you do move, that won't resolve itself. Recognizing that is a great start.

If you truly want to live abroad, your best bet is for your H to ask his company if they have any opportunities for jobs in other countries. It is not an easy thing to do on your own, and there are a ton of restrictions for getting visas in most countries. Deciding you want to live somewhere is not a good reason for that country to let you do so. In many countries, it's not enough to have a professional skill, but you need to prove that no one already in that country can provide that same skill. It's incredibly difficult to do on an individual level.

Not directed at the OP, but just a general PSA: many people are moving away from calling immigrants "expats" because of the classist/racist usage. Wealthy, white, English-speaking people are expats and considered a positive value-add; everyone else is an immigrant who came to steal jobs. We need to normalize that *all* these people are immigrants.